Man, these XC's are tough.

jasc15

jasc15

Pre-takeoff checklist
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Joe
I just finished my 4th dual XC earlier today. It was from KFRG to N12, flying along the south shore of Long Island, then cutting across NY harbor to
NJ and south to Lakewood (N12). My instructor said i should plan using standard VFR cruising altitudes, which brings me through NY class B. As soon as i could get a freq change from KFRG, i was knocking on the door to class B, so i had to ping them right away, not leaving me an opportunity to open my flight plan.

Since ATC, not you, flies your plane while in class B, my navlog was pretty much useless at this point. The controller had me track the JFK VOR, and it was wierd hearing "Traffic is a 777 at your 11 o'clock, 4000' " instead of "Traffic is a Baron at your 11 o'clock, 1000' ". :fcross: Continuing on, i realized he was maneuvering me to intercept a VOR which was part of my flight plan, so I was finally able to follow my route.

I still hadn't opened my flight plan, since i spent half the trip in class B and talking to TRACON. All the radio comm is still a lot for me to handle at this point, and i easily lose my course while fumbling around with radios and squwaks. So often, i hear but dont register all the information like "123AB, altimeter 30.12 squawk 0341 maintain 4,500 and heading 220", and mash up the numbers and read back the wrong info, which im sure pleases the ATC folks. :yes:

Anyway, the way back was a little easier. Partly because i was warmed up, and partly because avoided the class B this time around, however i was still on radar contact receiving advisories. We landed, and my instructor told me what i already knew; my navigation skills are good (except when distracted by radio comm, etc.) but i need work on communications and multitasking.

I guess the only way to work on that is by doing it. Nothing on the ground can help me there, although we did discuss creating a cheat sheet, or a script detailing the whole sequence of events, but thats just another piece of paper cluttering my lap. I guess i'll give it a go on the next XC.

Well, that was long. Hope i didnt waste too much of your time...
 
You can console yourself with the knowledge that you got more "complex airspace" time during that one trip than many guys in the sticks get during their entire training.


jasc15 said:
I just finished my 4th dual XC earlier today. It was from KFRG to N12, flying along the south shore of Long Island, then cutting across NY harbor to
NJ and south to Lakewood (N12). My instructor said i should plan using standard VFR cruising altitudes, which brings me through NY class B. As soon as i could get a freq change from KFRG, i was knocking on the door to class B, so i had to ping them right away, not leaving me an opportunity to open my flight plan.

Since ATC, not you, flies your plane while in class B, my navlog was pretty much useless at this point. The controller had me track the JFK VOR, and it was wierd hearing "Traffic is a 777 at your 11 o'clock, 4000' " instead of "Traffic is a Baron at your 11 o'clock, 1000' ". :fcross: Continuing on, i realized he was maneuvering me to intercept a VOR which was part of my flight plan, so I was finally able to follow my route.

I still hadn't opened my flight plan, since i spent half the trip in class B and talking to TRACON. All the radio comm is still a lot for me to handle at this point, and i easily lose my course while fumbling around with radios and squwaks. So often, i hear but dont register all the information like "123AB, altimeter 30.12 squawk 0341 maintain 4,500 and heading 220", and mash up the numbers and read back the wrong info, which im sure pleases the ATC folks. :yes:

Anyway, the way back was a little easier. Partly because i was warmed up, and partly because avoided the class B this time around, however i was still on radar contact receiving advisories. We landed, and my instructor told me what i already knew; my navigation skills are good (except when distracted by radio comm, etc.) but i need work on communications and multitasking.

I guess the only way to work on that is by doing it. Nothing on the ground can help me there, although we did discuss creating a cheat sheet, or a script detailing the whole sequence of events, but thats just another piece of paper cluttering my lap. I guess i'll give it a go on the next XC.

Well, that was long. Hope i didnt waste too much of your time...
Click to expand...
 
Student pilot FAIL...did not open flight plan.:D

OH NOES!!!

J/K

Sounds like a great flight. Good job. :thumbsup:

A CFI told me if you aint learning on your x/c flights, you must be dumb.

One time I got a transponder code of something like 3313. I kid you not, I repeated every permutation of those 4 digits except the right one. My tongue was tied and held for ransom. And still I had a good flight. :D
 
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Joe:

Welcome to our world of some of the toughest airspace around. Sounds like you are doing a great job...Remember that on your solo X-C's you won't be into the bravo airspace, but if you can handle this, you are prepared for almost anything. My CFI tells me that he is nothing more than a 1500 hour student. True true for us all!!!. Hey, when you schedule you solo X-C to SCH, let me know before you go and I will meet you there, or better yet, send me a PM and I can set up meeting you at Republic some time. My brother in law used to be the tower manager there before he transferred to Tucson, AZ. Let me know how it is going!!!!
 
DutchessFlier said:
Joe:

Welcome to our world of some of the toughest airspace around. Sounds like you are doing a great job...Remember that on your solo X-C's you won't be into the bravo airspace, but if you can handle this, you are prepared for almost anything. My CFI tells me that he is nothing more than a 1500 hour student. True true for us all!!!. Hey, when you schedule you solo X-C to SCH, let me know before you go and I will meet you there, or better yet, send me a PM and I can set up meeting you at Republic some time. My brother in law used to be the tower manager there before he transferred to Tucson, AZ. Let me know how it is going!!!!
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Correct me if I'm wrong. but I think his CFI can give him an endorsement to fly into Class B solo, right?
 
SkyHog said:
Correct me if I'm wrong. but I think his CFI can give him an endorsement to fly into Class B solo, right?
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He can. I've asked him about it before.

Trouble here (on LI) is that we are fairly limited in where we can go without some sort of class B shenanigans. It's either N/NW to the Hudson Valley and NE to New England, or south to the ocean.

I one of my main problems with the radio contact comes from my need to understand the who, what, when, where and why of everything, rather than just memorizing (This is a general thing i have when learning anything new). I need to know who i'm calling, why I'm calling them and where they fit into this whole scheme. As i learn this, it helps a lot more than to simply remember who to call when.
 
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NY Bravo isn't an easy place to fly. Many people who have their privates for years still don't want to fly in or around Bravos. It sounds to me like you did just fine.

This stuff all gets easier and becomes normal once you get used to it. Another pilot friend of mine and I were talking today while we were flying the Aztec, and we were talking about how when we were students, XCs were these big deals that you ended up spending more time planning than actually flying. Then between yesterday and today I flew 9.8 hours, landing in 4 states and 5 airports, including flying into the DC SFRA. No big deal.
 
For sure you can get the student endosement to fly the class B ( I have one in my log book ) but...I am not planning on using it unless I absolutely had to at this point. Hopefully that changes soon (by the end of the week)
 
Learning in tough airspace, like I am, helps a LOT for your instrument Rating. Theres definitely an overwhelming feel to the crazy airspace, but as time goes on you'll begin to miss it :).Come down to N14 if your around I'll meet up with ya, just PM me.
 
jasc15 said:
Since ATC, not you, flies your plane while in class B,
Click to expand...


I think I know what you are saying, but just want to clarify. They may give you vectors in Class B, but be sure YOU are always flying your plane as PIC, not ATC. Its your *ss in there not theirs.
 
Anthony said:
I think I know what you are saying, but just want to clarify. They may give you vectors in Class B, but be sure YOU are always flying your plane as PIC, not ATC. Its your *ss in there not theirs.
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Well, i was being colorful with the description, but of course, you are right.

Dutchess & Hawkeye: I'll have to hit you guys up when i start tooling around on my own. I'll have an excuse to go places.
 
NY Class B: If you can make it there, you can make it anywhere.... ('cept maybe Chicago - "aircraft calling, am I supposed to be talking to you?").

Seriously - it's a boatload of work in the Bravo, but it's make it much more enjoyable when you can stretch your wings elsewhere. Don't get complacent, though, about expecting traffic calls. It's still see and avoid.
 
jasc15 said:
He can. I've asked him about it before.

Trouble here (on LI) is that we are fairly limited in where we can go without some sort of class B shenanigans. It's either N/NW to the Hudson Valley and NE to New England, or south to the ocean.

I one of my main problems with the radio contact comes from my need to understand the who, what, when, where and why of everything, rather than just memorizing (This is a general thing i have when learning anything new). I need to know who i'm calling, why I'm calling them and where they fit into this whole scheme. As i learn this, it helps a lot more than to simply remember who to call when.
Click to expand...

Go to www.faa.gov and read (do not download unless you have lots of paper) FAA Order 7110.65S, chapters 2, 4, and 7. This is the controller's Bible, and gives you the terminology that they are required to use in different situations. They will deviate from the book only when it becomes apparent that the pilot does not understand the instructions, in which case the controller can use whatever works. If you know what they are going to say, it becomes a lot easier to anticipate instructions.

Bob Gardner
SAY AGAIN, PLEASE (not a bad resource itself) :D
 
Ah I almost went to Lakewood yesterday but went to Cape May instead.

BTW I think NY ATC is incredibly easy to work with much more so that PHL or from what I hear Chicago or Atlanta
 
AdamZ said:
BTW I think NY ATC is incredibly easy to work with much more so that PHL or from what I hear Chicago or Atlanta
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I don't have a ton of experience with NY airspace, but I disagree with this. PHL approach is always accommodating to my requests of practice approaches and FF, I have never had a bad experience with PHL approach... Mcguire approach is another story.
 
My limited experience with both NYC and PHL is pretty much like Hawkeye's. NY- wouldn't answer calls. PHL- I could probably do anything. My first long XC, PHL cleared me through the Class B- I had to reply "unable- no endorsement" and duck under their shelf.
 
AdamZ said:
BTW I think NY ATC is incredibly easy to work with much more so that PHL or from what I hear Chicago or Atlanta
Click to expand...

Agree in NY. No experience with PHL. Potomac is OK, given what we have to work with on the SFRA. ATL has been fine with me on my times through their region. Chicago, OTOH, does not rate particularly high IMHO.
 
Don't sweat the flight plan thing... remember, all that is is free search-and-rescue insurance. Had you gone down anywhere on that route, it's very unlikely that nobody would see you go down. The TV news people would be on the scene before the dust settled. :D

As for the NYC Class B: I have never actually been cleared thru there, although I've flown between NJ and LI numerous times. Asked and was denied, or just opted not to. No big deal going under, whether it's over the beach on the south side or over Westchester up north. Even flying over the harbor from Coney Island to Sandy Hook, you can get just high enough to have a decent engine-out margin, without entering the Bravo.
Not that I'm saying it's not useful to get a feel for controlled-airspace ops, just offering that if you don't want to deal with them- or bother them- every time you're heading west.
I'm one of those "avoid controlled airspace" PPs, but it really is more a matter of not wanting to 1) add to their workload and 2)expose myself to more traffic (esp. the "not looking out the window" kind of traffic) than not being comfortable dealing with ATC.
I also agree that the NY controllers are pretty easy-going; the only problem is that you can never be quite sure if you will get cleared, especially when scooting past JFK. And of course they may vector you, which can be a pain, as you know.
 
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Yeah, as long as you are on the East Coast, VFR flight plans are fairly useless.
 
Bob Gardner isn't going to shill for his own book (well maybe just a little) but I will.

If you don't have his "Say Again, Please" then get it. Amazon. Two day delivery. Chock full of very useful information. I promise you that the money will be well spent. I referred to it long after I got my PPL.

Funny thing is, I thought he wasted waaaay too much time on flying into airports with FSS but no control tower. Who has those any more??? Since Millville NJ closed, I can't think of one in these here parts. Guess what? They're all over Alaska. I was just out there flying for the week and, lessee, Talkeetna Radio, Ketchikan Radio, Prince Rupert Radio, Port Hardy Radio (those last two in Canada), Juneau Radio for a bunch of other places (but not, as it happens, for Juneau) the list goes on. Good thing I knew what to do.
 
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