Magnetos anyone?

Ahh... It autofeathered both engines because of a 1.7 millisecond voltage sag? Yikes!


James Dean
 
It sounds like there should be separate and isolated battery power sources for the sake of the FADEC. But, has there been any issues for FADECs in avgas engines?

I'm puzzled by the "transient voltage." Where was it coming from if the battery was flat or near flat and the auxiliary power was no longer connected? I would think the FADEC would be well-protected by voltage regulation on its supply input.

He should have removed the battery from the aircraft and charged it. Procedures allowed for starting one engine on axillary power then the second engine on aircraft power. With that, he should have started the one then allowed time for the battery to charge. I'm sure the ammeter was showing a significant charge. After the second engine start, it seems reasonable to remain grounded until charge rate is down to less than what is considered excessive by the POH.

He wants to place blame for the damage and have someone else pay. Although there may be glitches in power issues, he chose to start the second engine on auxiliary power. He's at fault, in my opinion.

Am I on to anything here or just pounding sand?
 
Am I on to anything here or just pounding sand?

nope you did a nice job of saying exactly what the article said. the fact is, there should be no electrical condition where the FADECs crap out. 1.7 MILLISECONDS of voltage drop should not shut down both engines. while in this case the reason was because of insufficient charge of the batteries after a discharge, what happens when the discharge is due to a short circuit in flight? then whose fault does it become?
 
What actually failed? Did the transient drop in voltage cause the FADEC to cut the fuel flow to the engines? There are mags or other system on a diesel to initiate a spark. Cutting off the fuel flow is the only thing I can think of that could cause this problem (but I'm no expert)
 
What actually failed? Did the transient drop in voltage cause the FADEC to cut the fuel flow to the engines? There are mags or other system on a diesel to initiate a spark. Cutting off the fuel flow is the only thing I can think of that could cause this problem (but I'm no expert)
I thought about that since I drive a diesel. All I need is enough battery to glow the plugs or a somewhat warmer day and a run downhill, I'm started.

I effectively have a FADEC (computer) in my Jetta. It's a "drive by wire" as there is no cable between the accelerator and throttle block. It's all electrical control. The computer controls fuel flow. There's not much of a worry if you lose electrical. But I guess there's no default setting for the throttle in the Thielert or emergency override in the event of lost electricity to the FADEC components.
 
Yeah, but you're talking about a diesel car, which is a piston engine... the DA42 has diesel turbines, does it not?
 
Flying had an article on it several months ago and I thought it had mentioned diesel turbines. I must have made the incorrect assumption that you mention. My mistake and I stand corrected.
 
It does not. Diesel pistons. You may be assuming it's turbine because it burns Jet-A, but Jet-A is essentially diesel fuel.
And because of this, the price of diesel is nearing the point I might be better off to go fill up with Jet A! :rolleyes:
 
The incident in a nutshell:

Pilot goes out and finds battery dead.
Pilot uses external power to jumpstart one engine (OK)
Pilot ignores POH and uses external power to jumpstart second engine (a no-no).
Dumb pilot then takes off without ensuring that the alternators are working and battery (ies) is/are charged to a reasonable level (no-no #2).
Pilot then retracts landing gear. Resultant load on electrical system causes FADECS to shut down due to insufficient voltage (and we're probably talking close to no volts).
Autofeather works as designed, leaving the pilot free to glide the airplane down - no fatalities.

Moral #1 (for pilots). Read the frigging POH, and understand the systems. If you have a dead plane that relies on electrons as much as it does on fire, wouldn't you want to be sure you've got plenty of electrons on board? I'd never take an airplane (any airplane) with a dead battery anywhere until I knew why the battery discharged and that it was now fully charged and handled a normal load.

Moral #2 (for airframe/engine designer manufacturers). No matter how clear you think you are in the limitations section and systems description, some creative pilot will ALWAYS find a way to make the system fail. Look at how many folks have taken off with insufficient fuel, even for a trip around the pattern!

I would expect either a change to procedures to make it even clearer how important it is to verify that the electrical system is healthy, or perhaps an electrical system modification that would ensure that the FADEC computers have a constant "good" source of electricity, either through a standby battery or a system that would shed load to other systems (like the hydraulic power pack) before letting voltage drop to the FADECs.
 
Some more data from a knowledgeable source:

Our company is experienced with DA 42s as a Diamond Dealer and Authorized Service Center. The pilots of this plane flew the aircraft in complete violation of the flight manual.
In a DA 42, if you have a complete main battery failure, there are back up batteries for each alternator and the FADEC system.
If you start the aircraft with a jump, you must make sure that the alternators are capable of recharging the system before you start the second engine. If with one engine running, you can't start the second engine without a jump--you are not ready to fly without servicing the battery.
In this case, when the pilot selected the gear up, he over spiked the electrical system causing all circuit breakers to pop resulting in an electrical failure of the FADEC system.
We all know that relying upon one's prior experience when flying a new aircraft is never a good substitute for proper understanding of a ship's systems.
 
Some more data from a knowledgeable source:

<snip>In this case, when the pilot selected the gear up, he over spiked the electrical system causing all circuit breakers to pop resulting in an electrical failure of the FADEC system.


Not to question your source, but I am curious how actuating the gear motors with low battery voltage causes all circuit breakers to pop and what an "over spiked" electrical system is?


____________________________
Jeff
El Paso
 
Very high current draw when the gear first starts to cycle - and I'm suspicious myself about ALL breakers popping, but I can see that the breakers for the alternators and possibly the standby busses could pop (thus killing everything downstream anyway).
 
Interesting...

DA42 POH said:
Taking off for a Night VFR or IFR flight with an empty battery is not permitted.
The use of an external power supply for engine starting with an empty airplane battery
is also not permitted if the subsequent flight is intended to be a Night VFR or IFR flight.
In this case the airplane battery must first be charged.

I don't see anything (yet) about the one-engine limitation, and it sounds like Day VFR is OK with a dead battery. :dunno:

Edit: OK, here's a couple of pieces of the "abnormal operating procedures" for starting with external power:

DA42 POH 4B.7.2 said:
NOTE
It is recommended to start the LH engine (pilot side). If
required by operational reasons, the RH engine can also be
started.

12.External Power . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . disconnect
13.Opposite engine . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Start with normal procedure

Emphasis mine.

I'm pretty sure that what they need to do is specify this in the limitations section, and potentially add a placard.
 
Last edited:
Very high current draw when the gear first starts to cycle - and I'm suspicious myself about ALL breakers popping, but I can see that the breakers for the alternators and possibly the standby busses could pop (thus killing everything downstream anyway).

Here's what happens: Battery is low for whatever reason (this has happened on a *lot* of DA40's with the G1000, people showing it off w/o a power cart). Actually, said DA40's still had enough power to crank on their own in most cases, but... Pilot adds power to taxi, and Alternator circuit breaker pops. (25 or 30 amp breaker).

Solution? Let the system charge at idle until it shows the charge current under 25 A and slowly nudge the throttles up to keep it there. When the engine is turning fast enough for a the alternator to be at its maximum output, you should be good to go.

In this case, the pilot should have done basically the same thing, but with just the one engine. When it's charged enough to crank again, start the second engine.

Unfortunately, rather than emphasizing proper operation via changes to the POH and/or placards, I'm betting that there will be an AD for installing backup batteries on the ECU's. Currently, there are none:

Each engine can only be operated with the ENGINE
MASTER switch ON. Each engine has an own ECU (Engine Control Unit) which receives
its electrical power from the generator when at least one engine is running. When both
engines are at standstill, the ECU receives its electrical power from the battery.

I think the dispute between Diamond and Theilert right now is that the Thielert ECU's are supposed to be able to withstand a 50ms power interruption and Diamond's tests indicate that in this situation there would have only been a 1.7ms interruption.

I'm also starting to hear that the available diesels on the DA50 will *not* be from Thielert, as the Thielert 4.0 diesel weighs something like 130 pounds more than the Continental TSIO-550. :eek: Hmmmm...
 
It does not. Diesel pistons. You may be assuming it's turbine because it burns Jet-A, but Jet-A is essentially diesel fuel.

My cummins diesel has a turbin. but I've never seen a turbine engine with pistons.
 
I would not like to have double autofeather becuase of a 17 msec interruption.

Never buy the "A" model of anything.
 
I would not like to have double autofeather becuase of a 17 msec interruption.

You wouldn't, because you'd have actually followed the POH.

What do you think we'll see on the AD?

1) More emphasis in the POH, including an addition to the limitations section.
2) Placard in the cockpit stating the limitation
3) Expensive backup battery and power filtering system. :(

Sigh...
 
You wouldn't, because you'd have actually followed the POH.
That's true, but the possiblity of that wee instability is frightening
What do you think we'll see on the AD?

1) More emphasis in the POH, including an addition to the limitations section.
2) Placard in the cockpit stating the limitation
3) Expensive backup battery and power filtering system. :(

Sigh...
An E188 ditched last year in the red sea. They lost a propellor tip, noted the overspeed, the tip cut a hydraulic line triggering the ALL 4 Shutdown that nobody understood, whatta drag.
 
...and I might add (just in case somebody couldn't read catch the subtle hint there ;))...Read the frigging POH, and understand the systems.

Fly safe!

David
I knew there was a reason nearly a third of my commercial oral was on aircraft systems!
 
It sounds like there should be separate and isolated battery power sources for the sake of the FADEC.
<snip>
Am I on to anything here or just pounding sand?
From Avweb Flash:
According to Diamond, the pilot found the aircraft with a dead battery, then took off immediately after starting it with ground power, without completely charging the battery. Although the airplane has dual alternators and dual buses, it’s unclear how independent the two buses actually are, since they’re connected through a battery isolation relay. In any case, neither alternator was delivering power because the offline ECUs stopped both engines. The ECUs are designed to reset after a failure, but will do so only if provided with sufficient operating voltage. One fix -- although it hasn’t been decided yet -- is to provide each ECU with its own independent backup battery or to isolate the dual buses more effectively, as some all-electric aircraft do. Diamond’s single-engine diesel, the DA40tdi, has a backup battery and Diamond has also discrete batteries for improved starting and for instruments in its two-seat DA20 C1 model. Another approach, says Maurer, is to use capacitors to bridge momentary voltage transients. Diamond and Thielert have yet to decide whether the proposed fix will be an engine or an airframe mod. Either way, says Maurer, airplanes will be retrofitted in the field, once the fix is developed.
Sometimes, I get something right. Scary, huh? :hairraise:
 
...and I might add (just in case somebody couldn't read catch the subtle hint there ;))...Read the frigging POH, and understand the systems.
While this is absolutely true, the thought that a transient voltage drop, for whatever reason, could shut down both engines and autofeather both props is not a comforting thought to me. This one incident was the fault of the pilot but electrical glitches happen for other reasons. I'll confess that I know nothing about the airplane or the engines other than what I have read in this thread but it seems like the design needs a little improvement.
 
Old Thread: Hello . There have been no replies in this thread for 365 days.
Content in this thread may no longer be relevant.
Perhaps it would be better to start a new thread instead.
Back
Top