LSAs as cross country airplanes

It's only half full! (must've been roughin' it...)

mantakos said:
Well, the parameters are range, speed, seats, load, and high DA performance. The required values of those parameters are to be defined by the pilot and passengers, so we're talking about "typical" values here.

You can fly cross-country with your low-weight friend, low and slow, making short hops between fuel stops, avoiding high density altitudes, and packing super-light, but that's not how most of us prefer to travel. I flew across the US in a 182RG, this is what the cabin looked like:

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I typically flew 500-600nm legs. I had about 50lbs of charts.

Could I have flown this trip in an LSA? Absolutely! Would it have been fun and challenging? Certainly! If somebody offered me free gas, $11 in cash, and some bits of string to make such a trip, would I do it? Yes.

But given the availability of other options, is that how I would choose to make such a trip? I don't think so.
-harry
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In the Zodiac I train in, we fit me (180lb in clothes), my instructor (200lb), and 18 gallons of fuel (about three hours flying time with VFR reserve+), and we still have 32lb left over for gear. If it was me and my wife, we could add another 8lb of gear to max out the 40lb baggage area and add 7 gallons of fuel.

I think we could do a nice XC in that configuration, though we'd have to make a fuel stop every 4 hours / 400-425 miles. But we'd probably want to anyway.
 
One Short said:
I'll second that opinion. And it is even more fun when it isn't a straight line from point A to point B.
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I'm secretly hoping that one of the LSA-cross-country naysayers tries to tell Barb that her TriPacer isn't a cross country airplane, and then watch her administer the online equivalent of her raccoon treatment. :D :rofl:

(Yes, I know the TriPacer's not an LSA - but it's in the same speed range!)
 
Okay, show of hands, how of many of us regularly weigh our bags before stuffing them in the plane. Every single bag. And your headsets and gps and handheld, etc, whatever you've got. And the extra oil. Just everything that goes into the plane.

Or, at least, how many of us have done this exercise at least once?
-harry
 
mantakos said:
Okay, show of hands, how of many of us regularly weigh our bags before stuffing them in the plane. Every single bag. And your headsets and gps and handheld, etc, whatever you've got. And the extra oil. Just everything that goes into the plane.

Or, at least, how many of us have done this exercise at least once?
-harry
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I do. I even have a hand scale to do it. I would never think of flying without doing a full W&B check per all the FARs.
 
I weighed everything the first 3-4 times. Now I just pack the same things or less.

Barb
 
mantakos said:
Okay, show of hands, how of many of us regularly weigh our bags before stuffing them in the plane. Every single bag. And your headsets and gps and handheld, etc, whatever you've got. And the extra oil. Just everything that goes into the plane.

Or, at least, how many of us have done this exercise at least once?
-harry
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I've done it several times, basically whenever I think I might be pushing the limits. I have also computed several W&B scenarios for various "typical" loads so I have a decent reference for where the limits are.
 
gismo said:
I've done it several times, basically whenever I think I might be pushing the limits. I have also computed several W&B scenarios for various "typical" loads so I have a decent reference for where the limits are.
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I was lucky enough to buy a plane for which the prior owner had done this already- very handy!
 
I flew my C150 from Pennsylvania to Jawja (Georgia) and back, 1500 miles over a 2 day period and loved it. It didn't get me there fast, but then again, that wasn't the goal. I agree with the thread owner, an LSA can certainly be a cross country aircraft if it's "envelope" meets the needs of the pilot.
 
For those who have done the "weigh all your bags and stuff" exercise, I wonder if you found it to be an "eye-opening" exercise? In my case, it was more like a "jaw dropping" exercise, it just far exceeded what I had always just thrown in there as a guessed slop factor.

If you've never tried it, I strongly recommend it.

I suspect that weighing your passengers would be similarly enlightening. I have a feeling that they give what they weighed 10 years ago, after stepping out of the shower, after subconsciously subtracting the 10 pounds they always wanted to lose, and not what they weigh today, all bundled up in their winter garb.
-harry
 
mantakos said:
I suspect that weighing your passengers would be similarly enlightening. I have a feeling that they give what they weighed 10 years ago, after stepping out of the shower, after subconsciously subtracting the 10 pounds they always wanted to lose, and not what they weigh today, all bundled up in their winter garb.
-harry
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Maybe, but I rarely get to finish this speech: "Now don't lie to me about your weight -- weight and balance is critical to safety of flight and..."

"163 pounds!!"
 
dmccormack said:
Maybe, but I rarely get to finish this speech: "Now don't lie to me about your weight -- weight and balance is critical to safety of flight and..."

"163 pounds!!"
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Been there and had to tell someone that they could not go until I burnt some fuel off, I felt bad, but the guy told his wife, see honey I told you that you were to heavy. She has one hell of a right cross.:D
 
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Dean said:
Been there and had to tell someone that they could not go until I burnt some fuel off, I felt bad, but the guy told his wife, see honey I told you that you where to heavy. She has one hell of a right cross.:D
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Or the answer to, "Will this aircraft not flying make me look fat?"
 
I lived out of a small duffel bag for a week (did 3 rounds of laundry). If you want to do something, you'll find a way. Just because most travelers want to take half their wardrobe with them, doesn't mean everyone has to. Pack light, pack right, and you can fit into whatever you need.
At some point in time, I'd love to vacation in a Citation, Lear, or G-V, but until then, I'll vacation in what I have and pack accordingly.
 
Dean said:
Been there and had to tell someone that they could not go until I burnt some fuel off, I felt bad, but the guy told his wife, see honey I told you that you were to heavy. She has one hell of a right cross.:D
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Now that there is funny...

:yesnod:

About a month after I earned my PPL I flew the fam to Ocean City, MD in a Cherokee 160.

Left it at the field. Line guy was busy, beach was beckoning -- "OK, fill it up to the TABS only, please!"

Got back to the a/c about 10 PM. Sho'Nuff -- gas up to the lip.
:skeptical:

(Lesson learend: that's the last time I ever let someone else refuel while I wasn't right there)

Did a full W&B with added fuel -- 20 lbs over.

It was a typical July night -- hot, steamy.

This airplane is about 30 years old....

I asked my 13 year old son, "Do you mind coming back with them? You'll have to stay here at the beach the rest of the week...."

Yeah, real tough decision....
 
See, I'm the guy who doesn't own anything fuel efficient or small. Even my motorcycle weighs 750 lbs and gets 36 mpg on the highway. That said, my normal weekend packing is a small duffle bag and a backpack, and I could easily cut down further if I wanted to.

When I went to Osh (for a week on the motorcycle), I was able to pack pretty much everything that I needed on it. Granted, this is my motorcycle:

HPIM2554.JPG


If I really wanted to go bare bones, I could do a trip with 2 people on it, but that would involve doing some additional packing. One of the issues for me, though, is I want to make sure I have enough gear so that I'm not cold. When I went to Osh, I also didn't have anything but a spare helmet tied to the back seat.

No reason why an LSA can't fit the bill similarly to a motorcycle, a Tri-Pacer (as Barb can attest, they are quite capable XC machines), etc. Would it be my choice? Not really, but that's for other reasons. It's certainly more economical than a 172 or Archer... provided what what you have will fit in it. For 6Y9, I would've been fine in an LSA, it just would've meant I couldn't have brought the wine. :)

As with everything else, it comes down to personal choice and personal needs.
 
I did 6 weeks in Mexico with my old Honda Hawk 400, including gear. LSAs work fine, just some folks don't understand the fine art of packing light.
 
steingar said:
I did 6 weeks in Mexico with my old Honda Hawk 400, including gear. LSAs work fine, just some folks don't understand the fine art of packing light.
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You mean, my wife? In an earlier age, she would have been the one with steamer trunks quayside.

Miami in July? Well, we better bring the snowsuits, JUST IN CASE.

I'll go for a week with a small roll bag, she usually has two bags. She's not even a girly-girl, but man she packs heavy.

The only time I put my foot down was our 2 month eurailing trip. I held a pack shakedown 2 days before departure and she was shocked. I was pulling stuff out right and left. Don't need this. Don't need that. Cut that bar of soap in half. Towel? Nope, use a chamois.

She wasn't thrilled, but about halfway through the trip she admitted she was glad I did it.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
HPIM2554.JPG
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Bah. That thing is a bus.

The best ride of my life was 2300 miles over a weekend on this. I think I had $500 to my name when I left:
attachment.php



Problem is..once you bring a woman along you end up with this.:
bandit_tent.jpg
 
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Hey, I like my bus! :)

Rides like what you did on the Nighthawk are the best sort, though. I did a bunch in college (mostly in cars and trucks, though), and I miss them.
 
somorris said:
My experience is that most of us, even if we have a Bonanza, could do 90% of what we do with the Bonanza with a LSA. If you really have a long trip, you can take the airlines. Most business trips that I do are 1 person, sometimes two, with minimal baggage, up to 200 to 300 miles. An LSA can do that too.
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LOL...than you have not flown with my wife. A week trip to the beach involved only the both of us and full fuel (79gals) and luggage, and we MAX'd the weight on our C182.

Her reasoning/answer....we bought this plane so we can CARRY stuff. If we wanted to carry little and still travel we would go by motorcycle (and we ARE avid motorcyclists, we rode from Atlanta to Montreal and back several years ago on two motorcycles).

All the while I am doing 125-130kts. Sorry but while I LOVE motorcycles/sports cars, if that is the analogy we are using, they are not my first choice for nice long trips.
 
bullwinkle said:
In the Zodiac I train in, we fit me (180lb in clothes), my instructor (200lb), and 18 gallons of fuel (about three hours flying time with VFR reserve+), and we still have 32lb left over for gear. If it was me and my wife, we could add another 8lb of gear to max out the 40lb baggage area and add 7 gallons of fuel.

I think we could do a nice XC in that configuration, though we'd have to make a fuel stop every 4 hours / 400-425 miles. But we'd probably want to anyway.
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Very true...but I would like to add, that one thing I like is not ALWAYS operating at max load. That is something that is lost in this discussion, sure HM and I have max loaded our C182's. However I can flight plan a 300 nm trip with 40 gals of fuel, my wife and I, and gear and STILL be 200+ pounds under gross. Again...I just prefer to have that safety margin.

BTW...I love the idea of LSA's and would love to have one, and we DO plan on getting a Cub some day, but it will be a secondary aircraft, not a single/primary one.
 
mantakos said:
Okay, show of hands, how of many of us regularly weigh our bags before stuffing them in the plane. Every single bag. And your headsets and gps and handheld, etc, whatever you've got. And the extra oil. Just everything that goes into the plane.

Or, at least, how many of us have done this exercise at least once?
-harry
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I have one it at least once, and do it when going on "big trips".
 
tdager said:
BTW...I love the idea of LSA's and would love to have one, and we DO plan on getting a Cub some day, but it will be a secondary aircraft, not a single/primary one.
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This is I think the root of this whole thread. The LSA can be someones primary plane and can do 90+% of the missions many of us fly. The 182's are the secondary when we need the load or seats.

I think the best thing 10 or 12 or may be more guys that all own LSAs could do is go together in a 182 class plane.
 
GigG601XL said:
This is I think the root of this whole thread. The LSA can be someones primary plane and can do 90+% of the missions many of us fly. The 182's are the secondary when we need the load or seats.
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I do want to get a 182 and it would be nice. But well over 90% of my flying can be done with my Cherokee and at a much lower cost. So far there has only been one time I not having the 182 affected a flight and what I did was just to ship a box with the extra gear in it to our condo and then back home when were done. The extra cost was like $30 which was still far less than what it would have cost me to just operate the 182 for the flight instead of the Cherokee.
 
GigG601XL said:
This is I think the root of this whole thread. The LSA can be someones primary plane and can do 90+% of the missions many of us fly. The 182's are the secondary when we need the load or seats.

I think the best thing 10 or 12 or may be more guys that all own LSAs could do is go together in a 182 class plane.
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Again the problem with your statistic is that you assume your mission is mine, or everyone else's.

I simply fail to see how an LSA accomplishes 90% of our "average" mission, which I know for me, is to use the aircraft as actual transportation, is a stable platform (especially for IFR) and has the speed to handle 15-20 knot headwinds and not actually be going slower than the traffic below us.
 
tdager said:
I simply fail to see how an LSA accomplishes 90% of our "average" mission, which I know for me, is to use the aircraft as actual transportation, is a stable platform (especially for IFR) and has the speed to handle 15-20 knot headwinds and not actually be going slower than the traffic below us.
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My Zodiac does all of that.
 
tdager said:
Again the problem with your statistic is that you assume your mission is mine, or everyone else's.

I simply fail to see how an LSA accomplishes 90% of our "average" mission, which I know for me, is to use the aircraft as actual transportation, is a stable platform (especially for IFR) and has the speed to handle 15-20 knot headwinds and not actually be going slower than the traffic below us.
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My Cherokee can do that too. But burns more gas and goes slower than Jay's Zodiac. I can jsut carry a little more in my plane.
 
LOL...nevermind, I give. I, in no way, shape, or form am trying to say LSA's are worthless. However the ones I have seen, and the numbers I have read, show that not one is "for me" as a singularly owned aircraft.

All some of us are saying is that the range, speed, and payload capacity do NOT make a good traveling aircraft, for some of us. I also do question the 90% "mission match" some are tossing out, but that is for another day.

I still would love to own a Cub or some other rag-wing taildragger as a second aircraft, but it will be awhile before an LSA meets 90% of my needs.
 
It's probably inevitable that we end up talking past each other on this issue.

Some of us travel with 2 or 3 passengers, some with "occasionally 1". For some of us "cross country" means "a few weeks traveling across the country", for other's its "a couple days traveling to the next state over".

For some of us, human weights start with a 1. For others, that number starts with a 2.

Some of us approach this as "the sacrifices I have to make to fly my plane are small compared to the satisfaction I get". This is the "it's possible" argument. Others view it as "if I have to make those sacrifices, then it may be possible, but it not's _suitable_".

Again, taking long trips with an overnight bag strapped to the back of a motorcycle, or a backpack strapped to your back, is some people's idea of fun (and I am one of those people), but for the preferences of most people, that's "possible, but not suitable".
-harry
 
tdager said:
LOL...nevermind, I give. I, in no way, shape, or form am trying to say LSA's are worthless. However the ones I have seen, and the numbers I have read, show that not one is "for me" as a singularly owned aircraft.

All some of us are saying is that the range, speed, and payload capacity do NOT make a good traveling aircraft, for some of us. I also do question the 90% "mission match" some are tossing out, but that is for another day.

I still would love to own a Cub or some other rag-wing taildragger as a second aircraft, but it will be awhile before an LSA meets 90% of my needs.
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I agree with all of this and am of the same mindset. Unfortunately, the powers that be want aviation to go the way of the LSA. I fear that economic and regulatory pressures will force us away from using GA as transportation and relegate us to flying around the patch for fun. Nothing wrong with that, but its nice ti get in your plane and actually go somewhere with people and/or bags.
 
tdager said:
Again the problem with your statistic is that you assume your mission is mine, or everyone else's.

I simply fail to see how an LSA accomplishes 90% of our "average" mission, which I know for me, is to use the aircraft as actual transportation, is a stable platform (especially for IFR) and has the speed to handle 15-20 knot headwinds and not actually be going slower than the traffic below us.
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I'm not assuming any such thing. You aren't in the 90%. An LSA isn't for everyone but neither is a BO or a Citation.

I've seen a bunch of pilots over the years upgrade from 172 and Warriors to BOs and Mooneys that went from coming out almost every weekend to fly to only flying when they had a trip. This was often followed by selling the plane because they didn't use it enough.
 
tdager said:
I simply fail to see how an LSA accomplishes 90% of our "average" mission, which I know for me, is to use the aircraft as actual transportation, is a stable platform (especially for IFR) and has the speed to handle 15-20 knot headwinds and not actually be going slower than the traffic below us.
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jmaynard said:
My Zodiac does all of that.
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Really? Including the feeling stable in IFR conditions part? I thought you felt otherwise...

http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showpost.php?p=422668&postcount=17
 
I think we'd all come closer together if the LSA spec was for 1600lb.

In the interest of solidarity, I suggest we push this change with the FAA. ;)
 
TangoWhiskey said:
Really? Including the feeling stable in IFR conditions part? I thought you felt otherwise...

http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showpost.php?p=422668&postcount=17
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The clouds in the picture I was referencing looked thunderstormish to me. That's quite a bit different from being merely IFR.

bullwinkle said:
I think we'd all come closer together if the LSA spec was for 1600lb.
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Not gonna happen. AIUI, the weight spec was set where it was in large part to specifically exclude the 150/152.
 
jmaynard said:
AIUI, the weight spec was set where it was in large part to specifically exclude the 150/152.
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My understanding is that the seemingly-odd 1320-lb LSA limit was chosen because it roughly equals 600 kg, the commonly-accepted standard in other countries.

A few years ago the Cessna 120/140 club petitioned FAA to allow those airplanes (standard category at 1450 lb gross) to fly as LSAs at a reduced gross weight of 1320 lb.

The answer: Nyet. :no: :nono: :devil: :frown2: :nonod:
 
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