(long) A little ill-preparedness, a few...

[Aztec Driver]

unexpected items, a little getthereitis, the uneasy feeling I always get when flying (especially IFR), and worse weather than forecast can sure add up.

Actually, I did prepare reasonably well, at least I thought. I had all of my charts at hand, was prepared with all approach charts and enroute charts in case IFR weather was encountered. I departed HSE (Billy Mitchell Airfield in the Outer Banks NC) at around 9:00 a.m. for what should have been a 2.5-3.0 hour flight, including fuel stop. Launched into beautiful VFR weather and landed at Manteo for fuel. Took a lot longer than anticipated because of unforecast headwinds. No matter, pull to self serve and find out they are inop. Had to wait for them to come with the truck. Burn another half hour. Still have time to spare. Launch again VFR to follow up through Norfolk area and northbound. Decided to climb to 5500 and get flight following. Passing Norfolk, some clouds were coming in close to my level, so I decide to increase to 7500 to clear them. At around 6400, the controller indignantly tells me that I wanted 5500 and I shouldn't be climbing. I politely informed her that I would like to remain VFR, if she doesn't mind. She tells me there is an aircraft at 7000 overtaking me, and to stay where I am. At least I am not the only one she is yelling at.

Am I wrong to assume that when VFR, we can change altitude and direction without telling ATC, unless they ask us to?

At any rate, I had to stay there long enough for an overcast layer to form above me at around 7500. So unless I get an IFR clearance, I am stuck at 6500. There are a lot of scattered cumulous clouds starting to form around me, so I have to do a lot of manuevering, but still manageable. I switch through Patuxent to Dover and decide that I should get a clearance, to which he responds, "you'll have to get that from Philly". ?!?!?!??? Well, by now it is almost impossible to navigate through the layer, but I find a large (several miles) hole to which I decide to spiral down through and hope to get under them. At 2000, I decide this is ridiculous, because I was just barely under them. I call Dover back and say "pretty please with sugar on top", and he says, "Oh, I misunderstood, I could have given that to you before, sorry about that." GRRRRRRR

Now I ask, how hard is it to understand, "Could I have an IFR clearance to LNS"?

Get a clearance to 5000 and, you guessed it, direct Dupont. (Can't go direct, always got to go around.) Level at 5000 and turn toward destination. Head is just about spinning by now from all of the aggravation. Just about now the plane starts to do a dance. Great time for an engine problem. You would think that all of the training I have had and continue to engage in to keep proficient would now kick in and take care of the problem. WRONG. At least I kept control of the airplane. It is surging back and forth and every time I try to verify which engine is malfunctioning, it goes to the other side. One throttle pulled and we lose power, the other throttle pulled and we lose power. HUH??? I didn't train for this one. Happened to glance at the fuel flow and found the right engine way down. Decided to pull the right engine mixture and let it windmill for a second or two, then reinstate it. Came back to life with no problems then. Somewhere in the absolute panic, I declared an emergency with ATC and then after it was restarted and running smooth, I cancelled it. Since I was so close to home and all was running smooth again I decide to proceed onward. At this point I have several other airports to divert to if need be, and my glide on one engine would have been enough to get to any of them, as well as LNS.

Water in the fuel, perhaps?

So, back for more training again. While I kept control of the plane within IFR parameters, I didn't follow procedures well enough. By this time I was constantly behind the airplane, correcting little deviations that kept me moving all over the place, up and down, left and right. Followed by a LOC approach at LNS. At least that went reasonably well.

Finally, 3.75 hours later, I landed at LNS, without a prayer of getting my grandaughter to BWI to catch her flight to Nashville. (I was going to drive to N71 and take her to BWI in the Tiger, so as not to spend a fortune at Signature) After that harrowing flight I decided to change the flight to the next day and let her Grandma drive her down to BWI.

In hindsight, I should have diverted to BWI when I first saw the time problem, since I was coming right past there, but I loathe spending $65 to land a twin there. At least I decided not to compund the problems with a hurried IFR flight to Baltimore.

Thank God this is a live and learn situation.

 

[Ed Guthrie]

Am I wrong to assume that when VFR, we can change altitude and direction without telling ATC, unless they ask us to?

True unless ATC instructed otherwise. However, you have to watch the ATC reply after your initial call/request. For example, the controller might have added the ubiquitous "advise of any altitude change" to the initial exchange. In that case you are stuck. As another example, sometimes I call in with "level at 5,500" only to hear, "...cleared into Class Bravo at 5,500". I'm stuck at 5,500' until ATC issues a near clearance/cancels the old altitude restriction.

IOW, it depends.

Somewhere in the absolute panic, I declared an emergency with ATC and then after it was restarted and running smooth, I cancelled it. Since I was so close to home and all was running smooth again I decide to proceed onward. At this point I have several other airports to divert to if need be, and my glide on one engine would have been enough to get to any of them, as well as LNS.

It is too darn easy to second guess, I know, but with two engines surging (or suspected two engines surging) I believe I would have asked for an immediate precautionary landing at the nearest suitable airport and sorted it all out later. With two engines affected there is no guarantee that at least one will keep turning.

Water in the fuel, perhaps?

Could be, and that is one factor that has been known to stop both props.

Glad to hear it turned out to be nothing.

 

[Aztec Driver]

True unless ATC instructed otherwise. However, you have to watch the ATC reply after your initial call/request. For example, the controller might have added the ubiquitous "advise of any altitude change" to the initial exchange. In that case you are stuck. As another example, sometimes I call in with "level at 5,500" only to hear, "...cleared into Class Bravo at 5,500". I'm stuck at 5,500' until ATC issues a near clearance/cancels the old altitude restriction.

I do listen for that, and heard nothing of the sort, just a squawk code. She wasn't real busy on that frequency anyway.

It is too darn easy to second guess, I know, but with two engines surging (or suspected two engines surging) I believe I would have asked for an immediate precautionary landing at the nearest suitable airport and sorted it all out later. With two engines affected there is no guarantee that at least one will keep turning.

It is a lot easier to arm chair fly, especially for me now, but at the time it seemed OK. I don't believe it was both engines surging, just the right engine surging, causing yawing back and forth, and when I tried to determine which was causing the problem, it still went back and forth. Sure did upset the passengers though. The right fuel flow was the only one low and the right engine the only one I shut down and restarted. I agree that landing would have been a wise precaution, but all checks checked OK and I was not far from LNS anyway. I had declared an emergency and asked for diversion to the nearest airport, which they were happy to help with, but then I cancelled and continued.

 

[bbchien]

Empty your crossfeed drains. I think you'll find water there. If I recall correctly, they hold about 4 ounces....which is just enough to do as you describe.

Sigh.

 

[PoAdeleted5]

Am I wrong to assume that when VFR, we can change altitude and direction without telling ATC, unless they ask us to?

Generally, yes.

As a courtesy though, I usually inform them when I'm on flight following before I climb, descend or do something unexpected. Otherwise the two way street can end with either side terminating radar services, squawk 1200, good day.

Just makes it easier for everyone.

 

[Anthony]

Generally, yes.

As a courtesy though, I usually inform them when I'm on flight following before I climb, descend or do something unexpected. Otherwise the two way street can end with either side terminating radar services, squawk 1200, good day.

Just makes it easier for everyone.

Usually they'll tell you to advise of any altitude changes. If they don't say this, some of the times when I call them up to tell them I'm changing altitude, they come back with a terse, "altitude your discretion". Basically saying, don't bother me with stuff I don't need to know.

 

[Aztec Driver]

One item I forgot. This happened on the way down (properly filed and opened IFR flight plan) and also on the way home (pop-up IFR clearance). Sometime down the line of controllers, one of them asks me "Are you IFR or VFR?" Does this happen often? Shouldn't there be some system in place if you are IFR? I would hate to think that a controller would drop me while I am flying IMC because he didn't remember that I was IFR.

 

[poadeleted3]

One item I forgot. This happened on the way down (properly filed and opened IFR flight plan) and also on the way home (pop-up IFR clearance). Sometime down the line of controllers, one of them asks me "Are you IFR or VFR?" Does this happen often? Shouldn't there be some system in place if you are IFR? I would hate to think that a controller would drop me while I am flying IMC because he didn't remember that I was IFR.

Maybe the controller was asking for the flight conditions?

 

[wsuffa]

One item I forgot. This happened on the way down (properly filed and opened IFR flight plan) and also on the way home (pop-up IFR clearance). Sometime down the line of controllers, one of them asks me "Are you IFR or VFR?" Does this happen often? Shouldn't there be some system in place if you are IFR? I would hate to think that a controller would drop me while I am flying IMC because he didn't remember that I was IFR.

It should be in the system.

I had a controller in Memphis try to cancel my IFR as I left his Class B. After a little exchange on frequency, I got him to realize his mistake. Fortunately it turned out to not be an issue that day.

Coming back from Missouri a few weeks ago, Razorback Approach got NO information on the handoff from Center. I had to read him the flight plan info, including both the route & altitudes I filed and my actual clearance.... that SHOULD have been given to him, but he never got it. And that day it WAS IMC.

Both those cases I filed with FSS, and was given a clearance before/immediately after departure. It was in the system.

Twice coming out of Redbird, Regional Approach had no record of my flight plan - it didn't make it from FSS to the system.

It doesn't inspire confidence.

 

[Aztec Driver]

It doesn't inspire confidence.

That's for sure. Especially when you consider that in IMC, they are responsible for your separation.

 

[SCCutler]

I, also, have been asked for my full route clearance from controllers immediately after handoffs... all they had was knowledge that I was there.

Oh well...

..glad yours turned out so well.

 

[Ed Guthrie]

Sometime down the line of controllers, one of them asks me "Are you IFR or VFR?" Does this happen often?

Around the ADIZ, or just after, by any chance?

Shouldn't there be some system in place if you are IFR? I would hate to think that a controller would drop me while I am flying IMC because he didn't remember that I was IFR.

There is. However, given the way the ADIZ process was jammed together I think problems were swept under the rug. I have seen the problem you describe elswhere and even pre-ADIZ times, but I see it more now, mostly around the ADIZ. If the controller drops you or tries to cancel your service simply remind him/her that you are IFR.

 

[Aztec Driver]

Around the ADIZ, or just after, by any chance?

The first time was near Norfolk. I believe it was Norfolk Approach. The next time it was Philadelphia Approach. I never went through Potomac Approach IFR on the way home, just Dover, Philadelphia, and Harrisburg.

There is. However, given the way the ADIZ process was jammed together I think problems were swept under the rug. I have seen the problem you describe elswhere and even pre-ADIZ times, but I see it more now, mostly around the ADIZ. If the controller drops you or tries to cancel your service simply remind him/her that you are IFR.

Shouldn't that be a major concern? If the controllers get busy, what is to keep them from just neglecting you if they think you are VFR? I know you are going to say something like "they will tell you 'radar service terminated, squawk VFR'". Unfortunately, I have been on flight following numerous times where the controllers just "forgot" about me. I don't expect that on IFR plans.

 

[Ed Guthrie]

Shouldn't that be a major concern? If the controllers get busy, what is to keep them from just neglecting you if they think you are VFR? I know you are going to say something like "they will tell you 'radar service terminated, squawk VFR'". Unfortunately, I have been on flight following numerous times where the controllers just "forgot" about me. I don't expect that on IFR plans.

Actually, I was going to ask you what would be the worst that could happen? Worst case I'm concerned about lost communications or collisions while ATC has "lost" me. With respect to lost communications, if I don't know the frequency change points or I forget to query before I loose communications with the controller, I dig out the chart, look up the current sector frequency, and I call the next sector controller. If it's the wrong frequency/controller says, "Who? Going where?", to my initial call I tell the controller my previous frequency and route and s/he sorts it out. No biggee. With respect to collisions, if I'm in VMC I'm watching for traffic anyhow. If I'm IMC the only folks I need to be concerned about are the IFRs, and I just don't see ATC vectoring an IFR into me. Again, no biggee.

 

[pete177]

I'm still working on my instrument ticket so all of my cross countries have been vfr flight following. It's been my experience that if you deviate from the altitude you tell them you want they will call you back to find out what your final altitude will be and in some instances will admonish you for not asking them first. Deviations of more than 100 ft will generally generate a call It has been my experience that this will occur regardless of what language they use during or at the end of the initial radio call. It may not be required, but they expect you to tell them. Probably more of a common courtesy thing than required in some instances, but then again, vfr flight following is an optional service done as a courtesy. After all, if you hit something their going to be on the hot seat.

 

[azure]

One item I forgot. This happened on the way down (properly filed and opened IFR flight plan) and also on the way home (pop-up IFR clearance). Sometime down the line of controllers, one of them asks me "Are you IFR or VFR?" Does this happen often? Shouldn't there be some system in place if you are IFR? I would hate to think that a controller would drop me while I am flying IMC because he didn't remember that I was IFR.

I don't know about often, Bryon, but they do get confused sometimes. Once I was flying VFR back from GLR to PHN at 7,500. Minneapolis Center handed me off to Cleveland, who handed me off to Selfridge Approach. The first thing the Selfridge controller said to me was "Cardinal XXX, descend and maintain 5,000". Okay, I figured he MIGHT think I'm IFR, or he MIGHT have good reason to want me there. So I just said "XXX out of 7,500 for 5", with emphasis on my leaving altitude so that he might get a clue if he was confused. He didn't say anything, so I figured he wanted me there for a reason. Then about 2 minutes later he came back with "Cardinal XXX are you IFR or VFR?" When I told him, he just said "Okay, altitude at your discretion, maintain VFR."

With Selfridge Approach it is often hard to tell WHAT they think you are since they tend to use standard IFR terminology even with VFR aircraft. Like, if you are give them a courteous heads up that you are beginning a climb to, say, 6,500, they are likely to respond with "VFR climb approved." I've never run into this with any other controllers in Michigan.

Liz

 

[AdamZ]

Hey Bryon: Thanks for the post. It was a good learning experience. Thanks again for sharing it. Happy it all worked out well in the end. BTW I thought the Aztec and Tiger were OTS for this trip!

 

[Aztec Driver]

Hey Bryon: Thanks for the post. It was a good learning experience. Thanks again for sharing it. Happy it all worked out well in the end. BTW I thought the Aztec and Tiger were OTS for this trip!

They were. I had to rent the Cougar that I trained with. Unfortunately, that was a year ago. Had to relearn a lot of things in a short time. That could have been part of the "ill-preparedness" feeling.

Actually, I was going to ask you what would be the worst that could happen? Worst case I'm concerned about lost communications or collisions while ATC has "lost" me. With respect to lost communications, if I don't know the frequency change points or I forget to query before I loose communications with the controller, I dig out the chart, look up the current sector frequency, and I call the next sector controller. If it's the wrong frequency/controller says, "Who? Going where?", to my initial call I tell the controller my previous frequency and route and s/he sorts it out. No biggee. With respect to collisions, if I'm in VMC I'm watching for traffic anyhow. If I'm IMC the only folks I need to be concerned about are the IFRs, and I just don't see ATC vectoring an IFR into me. Again, no biggee.
__________________
Ed Guthrie

So long as they watch their scope and don't allow ANY planes to get too close, I guess that would be no problem. The problem would arise when they get busy and two "lost" planes decide to merge. I realize this would likely be an astronomical chance, but a chance none the less. Paranoid, I know.

Thanks for the replies.

 

[Richard]

They were. I had to rent the Cougar that I trained with. Unfortunately, that was a year ago. Had to relearn a lot of things in a short time. That could have been part of the "ill-preparedness" feeling.



So long as they watch their scope and don't allow ANY planes to get too close, I guess that would be no problem. The problem would arise when they get busy and two "lost" planes decide to merge. I realize this would likely be an astronomical chance, but a chance none the less. Paranoid, I know.

Thanks for the replies.

Hoo boy. This is getting awfully close to reminding me of those time (3x, so far) when ATC never gave me the heads up on opposing or crossing traffic while IFR. Once, scared the crap out of me, I saw the Cessna through a hole just in time to...do nothing. It was that close.

 

[Henning]

Maybe the controller was asking for the flight conditions?

Unless they are having a brainfart, they ask "Are you IMC or VMC?" the obvious difference being proceedural vs. meteorological.

 

[Aztec Driver]

Hoo boy. This is getting awfully close to reminding me of those time (3x, so far) when ATC never gave me the heads up on opposing or crossing traffic while IFR. Once, scared the crap out of me, I saw the Cessna through a hole just in time to...do nothing. It was that close.

I guess this is what concerns me. I have had them miss traffic before, but I was always in VMC conditions, so it was no big deal. But if I am in IMC, I may not have the time to avoid a potentially dangerous meeting of the metals.

 

[Richard]

I guess this is what concerns me. I have had them miss traffic before, but I was always in VMC conditions, so it was no big deal. But if I am in IMC, I may not have the time to avoid a potentially dangerous meeting of the metals.

Yep, I'm concerned too but...how do I say this?...

While I am concerned I won't let that concern stop me from flying. It won't even limit me by causing me to avoid areas or times of day which I may id as high risk.

Of the many potentially hazardous activities we do we make note of those hazards of which we have some control and those of which we don't. Whether we do or not is not enough to stop us from engaging in that activity. There is always a choice to be made; do we stop doing that thing or do we accept the risk? I choose to accept the risk because to expose myself to the thrill of flying--in all it's myriad of forms--outweighs the element of risk, even that risk of which I have zero control.

I've given this a great amount of thought...the end result is I realize I can manage some of the risk yet events may so conspire against even my best efforts. Then there is the realization that there are some things of which I just can't control. There is a morbid side to what appears to be a casual attitude.

Each of us must decide for themselves for it is a very personal decision.

 

[Aztec Driver]

Yep, I'm concerned too but...how do I say this?...

While I am concerned I won't let that concern stop me from flying. It won't even limit me by causing me to avoid areas or times of day which I may id as high risk.

Of the many potentially hazardous activities we do we make note of those hazards of which we have some control and those of which we don't. Whether we do or not is not enough to stop us from engaging in that activity. There is always a choice to be made; do we stop doing that thing or do we accept the risk? I choose to accept the risk because to expose myself to the thrill of flying--in all it's myriad of forms--outweighs the element of risk, even that risk of which I have zero control.

I've given this a great amount of thought...the end result is I realize I can manage some of the risk yet events may so conspire against even my best efforts. Then there is the realization that there are some things of which I just can't control. There is a morbid side to what appears to be a casual attitude.

Each of us must decide for themselves for it is a very personal decision.

I agree completely Richard. I will continue to fly regardless of the risk. I do not dwell on the risks for which I can do nothing. I will just do things that will minimize the risks in any way that I can. For the rest, I will trust in others to do their job and pray that it all works out well. I just think of it as a mind excercise and try to see if there is anything out there that helps the situation.

Now, if only the Aztec would get back on line.

 

[gismo]

Unless they are having a brainfart, they ask "Are you IMC or VMC?" the obvious difference being proceedural vs. meteorological.

Actually I think they are supposed to ask "What are your flight conditions", at least that's what I've been asked.