Loitering at 8000 feet

Old Geek

Old Geek

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Old Geek
I may accept a volunteer mission to fly a amateur radio repeater at 8000 +/- 1000 feet, loitering over the same spot for maybe 4 hours. The purpose is to provide radio communications over most of a cross-country bicycle race.

How would ATC respond to my request to fly a relatively tight racetrack course without using the usual east/west VFR cruising altitudes?
 
Tell ATC what you are doing.... I bet they will be very cooperative..:yes:
 
Old Geek said:
I may accept a volunteer mission to fly a amateur radio repeater at 8000 +/- 1000 feet, loitering over the same spot for maybe 4 hours. The purpose is to provide radio communications over most of a cross-country bicycle race.

How would ATC respond to my request to fly a relatively tight racetrack course without using the usual east/west VFR cruising altitudes?
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Depends where you are. If you're not in an area where ATC provides separation for VFR aircraft the response should be "Roger". Make your legs no more than two minutes and FAR 91.159 doesn't apply.
 
I can barely wait to read your report on doing 4 continuous hours of a 2 minute leg holding pattern.
 
Dr. O said:
I can barely wait to read your report on doing 4 continuous hours of a 2 minute leg holding pattern.
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:lol:...

Two things come to mind......

1- A dizzy blonde joke.

2- Unless he keeps alternating between left and right turns, he is gonna have one real full fuel tank... and one real empty one..:eek:
 
N801BH said:
:lol:...

Two things come to mind......

1- A dizzy blonde joke.

2- Unless he keeps alternating between left and right turns, he is gonna have one real full fuel tank... and one real empty one..:eek:
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Not if he stays coordinated.
 
Dr. O said:
I can barely wait to read your report on doing 4 continuous hours of a 2 minute leg holding pattern.
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I once did two+ hours of holding on a CAP flight, to provide radio relay on a mission where the USAF needed practice targets for interception. Unfortunately, CAP wanted me on flight following, and the mission related communications were being handled on a different frequency by another crewman, so I didn't get to hear the interesting stuff myself. However, the other crewman did keep me posted on what was going on, so it wasn't too boring. I used a VFR altitude though.
 
This screams of needing an autopilot and a GPSS module :)

You might have to create your own fix.
 
It's no problem on the 480 to have the a/p enter a hold at the current position. I've done it a number of times.
 
Wouldn't it be more practical to use a linked system for that ?

I mean , what equipment do they plan on using for the repeater?

Nothing like a ton of RF floating around inside the cockpit or the duty cycle on said radio being used as the transmitter.

Then if you are using a coordinated repeater pair for the area, you now put that transmitter up at 8k feet, any idea what interference that will cause to other repeaters , that are using the same pair and the possibility of it De-sensing your VHF comms.



I am almost positive that APRS would be in use with the lead , trail and other "chase vehicles" . They could easily use the built in messaging , or coordinate use of other repeaters along the way. It would just take a bit of pre planning.
 
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Old Geek said:
I may accept a volunteer mission to fly a amateur radio repeater at 8000 +/- 1000 feet, loitering over the same spot for maybe 4 hours. The purpose is to provide radio communications over most of a cross-country bicycle race.

How would ATC respond to my request to fly a relatively tight racetrack course without using the usual east/west VFR cruising altitudes?
Click to expand...

Where is this bicycle race? Is there no cellular service available?
 
Sideline question, but are there any special FCC licensure issues with aerial repeaters?
 
First of all, thanks for the practical advice.

Secondly, I'm not familiar with the frequency allocation issues, but I'm sure it's been addressed because the bicycle and ham clubs have done this a few times before. As to the hardware, I think that all you need is a dual band handheld with crossband repeat functionality. Not a 19" rack full of equipment. My contribution would be the light sport plane that can comfortably loiter while burning 2.5 gallons an hour of mogas instead of a cramped 152. One big advantage to using radios over cell with a repeater is that everyone can hear everyone and no time is wasted with dialing and busy signals. Plus there's cell dead spots on the course.
 
Old Geek said:
First of all, thanks for the practical advice.

Secondly, I'm not familiar with the frequency allocation issues, but I'm sure it's been addressed because the bicycle and ham clubs have done this a few times before. As to the hardware, I think that all you need is a dual band handheld with crossband repeat functionality. Not a 19" rack full of equipment. My contribution would be the light sport plane that can comfortably loiter while burning 2.5 gallons an hour of mogas instead of a cramped 152. One big advantage to using radios over cell with a repeater is that everyone can hear everyone and no time is wasted with dialing and busy signals. Plus there's cell dead spots on the course.
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Ok so a handheld with cross banding , not so bad for RF , and if that is the case , they will probably be using un-coordinated simplex pairs on UHF and VHF. The only FCC issue would be if you aren't a licensed ham , it comes into a grey area when it comes to being a control operator for that "station" you are carrying .........
 
cavmedic said:
Ok so a handheld with cross banding , not so bad for RF , and if that is the case , they will probably be using un-coordinated simplex pairs on UHF and VHF. The only FCC issue would be if you aren't a licensed ham , it comes into a grey area when it comes to being a control operator for that "station" you are carrying .........
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I am a ham. And I hold a commercial radiotelephone license. And a pilot's license. I hold more federal licenses than any of my friends.
 
Sac Arrow said:
Sideline question, but are there any special FCC licensure issues with aerial repeaters?
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There's no specific airborne requirement other than that amateur radio is specifically enjoined from being used during IFR (this is the FCC requirement not the FAA) and your equipment has to be separate from the aviation radios in use. Both of these are widely ignored in amateur radio and I am unaware of anybody ever being violated for this.

As for repeaters in general, if the control operator is in the plane, then you have local control over the thing and you dodge a lot of rules on automatic and remote operation that typically apply to repeater operation (i.e, prohibitions on third party traffic, restrictions on control link frequencies, etc...).
 
I used to do a similar thing for the Univ of Washington over tidal pools near river inlets. It was continuous flying of a grid pattern for 4-5 hours at a specifc altitude. If there is ATC, use it and tell them what you are doing. If there isn't, keep your eyes peeled. Filing a NOTAM for the activity wouldn't hurt either if nobody else has.
 
flyingron said:
There's no specific airborne requirement other than that amateur radio is specifically enjoined from being used during IFR (this is the FCC requirement not the FAA) and your equipment has to be separate from the aviation radios in use. Both of these are widely ignored in amateur radio and I am unaware of anybody ever being violated for this.
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I'd like to look that up. Do you happen to have the FCC regulation number handy?
 
Palmpilot said:
I'd like to look that up. Do you happen to have the FCC regulation number handy?
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§ 97.11 Stations aboard ships or aircraft.
(a) The installation and operation of an amateur station on a ship or aircraft must be approved by the master of the ship or pilot in
command of the aircraft.
(b) The station must be separate from and independent of all other radio apparatus installed on the ship or aircraft, except a common
antenna may be shared with a voluntary ship radio installation. The station's transmissions must not cause interference to any other
apparatus installed on the ship or aircraft.
(c) The station must not constitute a hazard to the safety of life or property. For a station aboard an aircraft, the apparatus shall not be
operated while the aircraft is operating under Instrument Flight Rules, as defined by the FAA, unless the station has been found to
comply with all applicable FAA Rules.
 
flyingron said:
There's no specific airborne requirement other than that amateur radio is specifically enjoined from being used during IFR (this is the FCC requirement not the FAA) and your equipment has to be separate from the aviation radios in use. Both of these are widely ignored in amateur radio and I am unaware of anybody ever being violated for this.

As for repeaters in general, if the control operator is in the plane, then you have local control over the thing and you dodge a lot of rules on automatic and remote operation that typically apply to repeater operation (i.e, prohibitions on third party traffic, restrictions on control link frequencies, etc...).
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If he wasn't licensed , is where i was thinking of that grey area. The ground control ops could lose ability to drop the link or cross band ops via DTMF in this case.
( being a twisted pair into a controller isnt an option)

But then you get into the high wing vs low wing debate on proper id'ing every 10 minutes by that particular station on both frequencies being used...:rofl:
 
cavmedic said:
But then you get into the high wing vs low wing debate on proper id'ing every 10 minutes by that particular station on both frequencies being used...:rofl:
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After some discussion with Riley Hollingsworth before he retired, I was forced to conclude that even the FCC really doesn't care as long as no one complains.
 
roncachamp said:
Where is this bicycle race? Is there no cellular service available?
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I've been a motorcycle marshal for many years with one of the largest MS Society bike rides.. We run a two day course over our ride (not a race) that covers 170 miles in one direction.

HAM radio has been an integral part since the outset, because of the nature of the ride. When we started, cell coverage was non-existent, now its present but subject to being overwhelmed. With 13000 riders, over 150 vehicles supporting, and hundreds of volunteers, we dont rely on nex-tel or cell for operational control of the ride.

We run two HAM nets one for logistics and one for ops, and there are many many times that my peers and I were first in assets and calling in accidents on HAM where there were two or three other riders trying to call 911 on cell and not getting through because of the geography. In modern day central and east Texas.

The HAM nets are much cheaper than a commercial rented radio system, and more reliable over the entire course of the route than cell, and by being on a radio net all the folks are able to maintain situational awareness of events on the route.

As of the last two years, the medical assets have migrated to a trunked public safety net that utilizes the regional water authority's assets (it happens to span the majority of our route), but the amount of radios involved precludes us from putting the entire operation on the trunked system... for now.

And to be clear, I may be an amatuer radio operator, but hardly a techie or radio nerd. I pull the radio out of the closet, mount it on the motorcycle maybe 3-4 times a year for rides/events, then take it off and put it back up.
 
Old Geek said:
How would ATC respond to my request to fly a relatively tight racetrack course without using the usual east/west VFR cruising altitudes?
Click to expand...

Fly a figure eight course on an essentially north/south heading and you could (theoretically) remain at one altitude and at a legal VFR altitude the entire time.

Except during the turns, of course, but they could easily remain under the 2 minute limit.
 
Just a quick update. I got a reply back from an old flight instructor who is also a TRACON supervisor. He strongly suggested calling the local TRACON the day before and giving them a quick description of the time, location and purpose of the mission. This does two things. It gives the operators a heads-up when I make my radio call and it eliminates the suspicion that a loitering aircraft apparently generates these days.
 
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