Logging of Cross Country Part Two

Greg Bockelman

Greg Bockelman

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Greg Bockelman
Sorry, someone stole my thread title before I could get to it. :yes:

This is for all you FAR Scholars out there.

We beat the thing about whether a safety pilot could log cross country time to death in chat last night. I think, the way the reg is written, a case could be made either way on THAT subject. But I want to take it beyond that.

61.1 DEFINES cross country as it relates to the various certificates and ratings. In other words, what is required for Student, Private, Instrument, Commercial, etcetera. But it does NOT say anything about LOGGING the cross country time.

The only other FAR that has anything to do with LOGGING of time is 61.51. Subpart (a) says that you MUST document training time and aeronautical experience. In other words, you must log the time to show compliance with the training requirements for the various certificates and ratings, (which would include the cross country time) and time required to show currency (landings and instrument approaches). Other than that, you are not required to log a single thing.

But AFTER the requirements for the various certificates and ratings are met, 61.51 is SILENT with regard to logging of cross country. Now for my question. Log it? or not? Does it matter? Does anyone even care?

I think the answer is "Nobody Cares" at that point. Except for bragging rites. I believe that is the consensus of the people discussing it last night.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
I think the answer is "Nobody Cares" at that point. Except for bragging rites. I believe that is the consensus of the people discussing it last night.
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Insurance companies, 135/121 operators, other potential employers...you could probably develop a good-sized list of people who care beyond certificates and bragging rights, and most of them probably have differing ideas of what should count.

Yes, having made my living in corporate transportation for the last 17 years, I can probably say that nobody really cares if I log cross-country time anymore. Heck, I could probably walk into the FSDO following a landing incident with nothing logged for the last 3 years, and not get violated for lack of currency. It would take very little research to verify that I meet the "intent" of the rule, even though the "letter" is not complied with. I've seen it happen.

I'm not sure exactly where I would have crossed that point, but I probably have. But that's all right...I've been flying two-pilot airplanes for a few years, and haven't been legally current in any of them, since I haven't done my takeoffs and landings as "sole manipulator of the flight controls"...I try to practice good CRM ;)

Fly safe!

David
 
I'll continue to log every flight. At the end of my last flight, I'd like to be able to look back on the history of my passion and see the details. Along the way, there will be flights I'll treasure. I'll certainly log those along with everything else.

On the flip-side, I know a trans-Atlantic relief pilot who logs nothing more than his simulator landings every three months and a single line for 600 hours for that year.

It's personal preference but I'd love the history to look back on.
 
I know people who once they hit a certain point stop logging their hours. I fully intend on always logging them, though. I wish I'd done that with my driving, but already my pilot's log book is very interesting.

For people under 1000 hours, it would seem to me that it probably makes a lot of sense, especially to make the insurance companies happy. If nothing else, if you're trying to prove to them "I have experience with what I'm trying to get insured on" it is never a bad thing. :)
 
As someone pointed out, XC can be any flight to another airport at any distance. The rules identify which XC time can be counted for higher pilot certificates and endorsements. So after you get the certificates, perhaps all the XC time should be logged as XC? Does insurance care about XC time? So far they have asked me for ratings and total time, without identification of XC. Or even breaking out PIC time, though after the PP it has all been PIC. I expect to continue to log it, but more for me than anyone else. I think "no one cares" is most accurate unless you fly professionally.
 
AFS-800 is on record as saying you can't log XC time as a SIC safety pilot under 91.109(b); the FAA Chief Counsel's office has not given an opinion on that. AFS-800 also said that it would be OK if you are the required SIC on a 135/121 operation; again, never ruled on by AGC-200.

Therefore, my advice would be to follow the guidance from AFS-800 until AGC-200 says otherwise. Any other course of action is betting that AFS-800 is wrong, and that has not been a real high probability bet.
 
Ron Levy said:
AFS-800 is on record as saying you can't log XC time as a SIC safety pilot under 91.109(b); the FAA Chief Counsel's office has not given an opinion on that. AFS-800 also said that it would be OK if you are the required SIC on a 135/121 operation; again, never ruled on by AGC-200.

Therefore, my advice would be to follow the guidance from AFS-800 until AGC-200 says otherwise. Any other course of action is betting that AFS-800 is wrong, and that has not been a real high probability bet.
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why the difference between the required SIC for 135/121 and the required SIC for simulated instrument? Is it that the SIC isnt required during the landing?

Any word on PIC Safety Pilots?
 
tonycondon said:
why the difference between the required SIC for 135/121 and the required SIC for simulated instrument?
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I cannot recall the precise reasoning Mr. Lynch provided other than that it was incomprehensible.
Is it that the SIC isnt required during the landing?
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No.
Any word on PIC Safety Pilots?
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After his response to the first question, I didn't feel like asking any more questions the answers to which I could not stand, and retrospectively wished I hadn't asked the first one.
 
Perhaps, like lawyers, we need to pick the "court" we want to rule on this? Preferably someone who flys, and is reasonable? (if that combination can be found in the FAA). The SIC thing about XC does not seem to gain anyone much, if the rule says that time for higher certs needs to be XC as PIC time. But XC as PIC logging issues effect everyone who may ever go for any advanced cert.
 
KennyFlys said:
Now, would you feel that way when a potential employer asks you to prove your time for a left seat in a BBJ?
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Realistically, I can't imagine anyone looking for a BBJ captain is going to be scrutinizing any candidate's cross-country hours. It would be about like asking how much retractable time they had, or how much complex. Like Greg said, at some point it doesn't matter. :dunno:
 
Everskyward said:
Realistically, I can't imagine anyone looking for a BBJ captain is going to be scrutinizing any candidate's cross-country hours. It would be about like asking how much retractable time they had, or how much complex. Like Greg said, at some point it doesn't matter. :dunno:
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I know. I'm just givin' ya a hard time. :p
 
I stopped loggin each flight 2 yrs ago. Now I just do a monthly avg total on a line & write "EST time" next to it.
 
Ron Levy said:
I cannot recall the precise reasoning Mr. Lynch provided other than that it was incomprehensible..
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I remember it. It was really pretty simple - only the pilot who did the takeoff and the landing could log it.
==============================
The pilot performing the takeoff and landing, i.e., conducting flight in an appropriate aircraft per the definition of cross-country, is the person acquiring the cross-country credit.
==============================

But that leads to all sorts of silly results - there's no good reason why that "reasoning" doesn't also mean the Part 135 SIC can't log it, or my personal favorite scenario - two pilots on a no-refueling 1000 NM cross country who trade flying duties at the midpoint - no cross country time for either.

It's one of a number of Lynch views that, IMO, are not based on any real "reasoning." They are strictly result-oriented. He knows what answer he wants and makes up some reason to get there. He does not want a safety pilot ro log cross country time. Period. His "reason" doesn't hold up beyond that scenario and can't be applied to anything else.

Tony, Lynch's answer deals =only= with safety pilots. The difference between that and other PIC/SIC situations is that those do not involve safety pilots. There is no other distinction. Whether it makes sense or not.
 
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