Logging hours without a BFR

[MachFly]

If I fly with someone who does not have their BFR done, but is rated in category and class and has a current medical, will that person be able to log acting PIC if they are the sole manipulator of the controls and I don't log anything?
I do not have a CFI.

 

[Palmpilot]

If I fly with someone who does not have their BFR done, but is rated in category and type and has a current medical, will that person be able to log acting PIC if they are the sole manipulator of the controls and I don't log anything?
I do not have a CFI.

They can log PIC time as sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which they are rated. (Their ratings don't go away when their BFR expires.) They cannot, however, act as PIC, which means that they cannot be the person who is responsible for the flight as described in FAR 1.1. In order for the flight to be legal, you would have to be qualified to act as PIC. I'm not sure whether you could log it, but I'm sure that others here have that information.

By the way, they don't have to be rated in type unless it's an aircraft that requires a type rating. They only have to be rated in category and class, such as single engine land, for example.

 

[MachFly]

They can log PIC time as sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which they are rated. (Their ratings don't go away when their BFR expires.) They cannot, however, act as PIC, which means that they cannot be the person who is responsible for the flight as described if FAR 1.1. In order for the flight to be legal, you would have to be qualified to act as PIC. I'm not sure whether you could log it, but I'm sure that others here have that information.

Yes I will be the actual PIC. But would rather have someone else log it.

By the way, they don't have to be rated in type unless it's an aircraft that requires a type rating. They only have to be rated in category and class, such as single engine land, for example.

That's what I meant to say.
Fixed now.

 

[FastEddieB]

I'm not sure whether you could log it, but I'm sure that others here have that information.

I don't think they can log any of it - that right comes with being a CFI.

 

[JeffDG]

Above correct. Pilot flying can log PIC as sole manipulator.

If that person puts a hood on, the acting-PIC can log PIC under the required crewmember provision, otherwise logs nothing.

 

[EdFred]

If only there was a quick reference somewhere to answer all these questions about logging PIC....

 

[midlifeflyer]

I don't think they can log any of it - that right comes with being a CFI.

I don't understand. What right comes with being a CFI? The right of the sole manipulator to log time? The right of the pilot-not-fling (PNF) to log time? Can't figure out who your "they" is.

I agree with the other answers given.

The pilot who is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which he or she is rated may log PIC time. There is no requirement for currency of any kind.

Assuming this is a basic Part 91 operation in an aircraft that only requires one pilot, the PNF logs nothing. An exception, as Palmpilot pointed out, is when the PNF is acting as a safety pilot. (Another, of course, is when the PNF is a CFI giving instruction)

 

[poadeleted20]

I don't think they can log any of it - that right comes with being a CFI.

If you're talking about the non-PIC logging the time, 14 CFR 61.51(e)(1)(i) allows a non-PIC to log PIC time when s/he is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which s/he is rated (or for Sport Pilots, has privileges) even though someone is acting as PIC at the time.

If you're talking about logging PIC time without manipulating the controls, there are several situations in which a non-CFI acting as PIC can log PIC time without being the sole manipulator, such as when a Private Pilot acts as both PIC and safety pilot for another pilot flying under the hood, or when a non-CFI Commercial Pilot acts as PIC of a flight under Part 135 when the regulations require a co-pilot. See 14 CFR 61.51(e) for the full list.

 

[midlifeflyer]

If only there was a quick reference somewhere to answer all these questions about logging PIC....

..assuming, of course, he's looking for a quick reference rather than understanding.

You'd probably like my flowchart of the typical enforcement process. I color it and use it as part of the powerpoint when I do a talk of the process and it always gets a laugh.

 

[EdFred]

Mine has notations.

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

If only there was a quick reference somewhere to answer all these questions about logging PIC....

If someone were to create one, they could link to it in their signature.

 

[EdFred]

If someone were to create one, they could link to it in their signature.

And probably even have it in a different color, larger font, and everything. If only that person posted enough for it to be seen...

 

[Palmpilot]

...An exception, as Palmpilot pointed out, is when the PNF is acting as a safety pilot...)

Credit where credit is due: It was JeffDG who pointed that out.

 

[JeffDG]

Credit where credit is due: It was JeffDG who pointed that out.

Meh...I don't do this for credit...the point was made and re-made...as long as good information gets out, I'm a happy camper.

 

[MachFly]

So in this case BFR doesn't matter?

 

[EdFred]

So in this case BFR doesn't matter?

BFR only matters if the person is going to ACT as PIC.

There are times, when you can...

be PIC and log PIC
be PIC and not log PIC
not be PIC and log PIC
not be PIC and not log PIC

you only need a BFR to BE PIC.

 

[MachFly]

Okay great thanks.

 

[EdFred]

Okay great thanks.

Yeah, the FAA messed up with not coming up with two separate terms for PIC - one to act, and one to log. After about the 100th question about it came up, I made the flowchart.

 

[JeffDG]

Yeah, the FAA messed up with not coming up with two separate terms for PIC - one to act, and one to log. After about the 100th question about it came up, I made the flowchart.

What flowchart? I'm not aware of any flowchart! Why was I not informed!

 

[MachFly]

Yeah, the FAA messed up with not coming up with two separate terms for PIC - one to act, and one to log. After about the 100th question about it came up, I made the flowchart.

It's a useful chart, but it doesn't clearly cover the BFR bit. So I wasn't sure if you forgot about it or if it's not needed.

 

[EdFred]

The flight review is mentioned in the box about are you current to act as PIC, because that's when it's required.

 

[MachFly]

The flight review is mentioned in the box about are you current to act as PIC, because that's when it's required.

Got you.

 

[Captain]

Can someone please explain why it's so vital to the system for 'sole manipulators' to be able to log PIC?

That one thing throws so many wrenches into the cogs it makes me scratch my head. Why can't the guy in charge, and we all know who that is, log it and everyone else be content with just logging the flight time and not the PIC?

This thread illustrates it perfectly. I own a plane...it's mine. I go fly with someone who's not current with a BFR and somehow HE gets to log PIC cause I allow him to play with the controls under my direct supervision with the full understanding that at any moment I choose the controls come right back to me. We have to swallow THAT to keep the 'sole manipulator' malarkey?? Why? What do we get in return that is sooooo great?

I'm really not being snarky here. I honestly don't get it. That this forum has endless, and I mean endless, debates and threads on PIC logging issues sorta makes my point.

 

[FastEddieB]

Sorry if my answer was vague.

I was referring to the non-flying party. That's what I thought was at issue.

It's been answered far more comprehensively, so never mind.

 

[EdFred]

Can someone please explain why it's so vital to the system for 'sole manipulators' to be able to log PIC?

That one thing throws so many wrenches into the cogs it makes me scratch my head. Why can't the guy in charge, and we all know who that is, log it and everyone else be content with just logging the flight time and not the PIC?

This thread illustrates it perfectly. I own a plane...it's mine. I go fly with someone who's not current with a BFR and somehow HE gets to log PIC cause I allow him to play with the controls under my direct supervision with the full understanding that at any moment I choose the controls come right back to me. We have to swallow THAT to keep the 'sole manipulator' malarkey?? Why? What do we get in return that is sooooo great?

I'm really not being snarky here. I honestly don't get it. That this forum has endless, and I mean endless, debates and threads on PIC logging issues sorta makes my point.

What is more beneficial to a pilot? Doing the actual flying or sleeping as PIC while the person doing the flying is really, although, not legally the PIC?

Or in another example, the pilot flying approaches under the hood, or the pilot staring out the window looking for traffic?

 

[MachFly]

What is more beneficial to a pilot? Doing the actual flying or sleeping as PIC while the person doing the flying is really, although, not legally the PIC?

Or in another example, the pilot flying approaches under the hood, or the pilot staring out the window looking for traffic?

One person can be doing the actual flying (stick & rudder stuff) and the other one can be commanding (making all the critical decisions). I really think both pilots should be able to log hours, but one should be able to log PIC.

 

[poadeleted20]

One person can be doing the actual flying (stick & rudder stuff) and the other one can be commanding (making all the critical decisions). I really think both pilots should be able to log hours, but one should be able to log PIC.

Maybe some day the FAA will split PIC time into AC (Aircraft Commander) and FP (First Pilot) to differentiate between command and control manipulation. Until then, we're stuck with the system, so it's best that we all just learn it.

 

[Captain]

So the non-BFR current pilot logging PIC time instead of the guy deciding how the plane will be flown is just an outlying issue?

Seems like there are a thousand of these and I really don't see the benefit? I'm not suggesting the Sole-Manipulator (SM) can't log it, just not PIC unless they really are.

Why is having ONE person who is the final authority for the operation of the flight logging the PIC such a hard concept? Is it because the FAA thinks it'd be easier to violate the SM instead if there was a violation? It seems like the situation we have now makes it easier for both pilots to point at each other if some rule is broken and the FAA gets involved.

I'm shooting in the dark here. I just don't see the benefit of the current system. I guess I'm looking for the reason behind the current rules. Obviously my sharing my opinion on this forum isn't going to change any FAA policies...

 

[EdFred]

So the non-BFR current pilot logging PIC time instead of the guy deciding how the plane will be flown is just an outlying issue?

Seems like there are a thousand of these and I really don't see the benefit? I'm not suggesting the Sole-Manipulator (SM) can't log it, just not PIC unless they really are.

Why is having ONE person who is the final authority for the operation of the flight logging the PIC such a hard concept? Is it because the FAA thinks it'd be easier to violate the SM instead if there was a violation? It seems like the situation we have now makes it easier for both pilots to point at each other if some rule is broken and the FAA gets involved.

I'm shooting in the dark here. I just don't see the benefit of the current system. I guess I'm looking for the reason behind the current rules. Obviously my sharing my opinion on this forum isn't going to change any FAA policies...

I could have ATP time in under a year going by your suggestion without ever touching the controls.

"Hey, can I bum a ride and be PIC?"
"Sure."
"Sweet, another 6 hours of not flying but getting credit for it."

Personally, I don't think a safety pilot, or CFIs should get PIC time for not flying the plane.

 

[poadeleted20]

I guess I'm looking for the reason behind the current rules.

I don't have it, and since it's been that way since long before the FAR's went on line, you'd have a hard time figuring out exactly when the FAA established the rule that way, and that means a really slogging search through the Federal Register to find the NPRM with the explanation. Former AFS-810 Part 61 regulation manager John Lynch probably knows, as his memory of the genesis of various Part 61 FAR's is encyclopedic, but he retired from the FAA ten years ago and I don't think he takes such calls at home.

Obviously my sharing my opinion on this forum isn't going to change any FAA policies...

Obviously!

 

[Captain]

I could have ATP time in under a year going by your suggestion without ever touching the controls.

"Hey, can I bum a ride and be PIC?"
"Sure."
"Sweet, another 6 hours of not flying but getting credit for it."

Personally, I don't think a safety pilot, or CFIs should get PIC time for not flying the plane.

Agree / Disagree

CFI is in 'command'. If your instructor says turn left and you want to turn right guess which way you turn.

Also, a CFII is the only guy in the plane qualified to be there if on a flight plan. Heck, in primary training the CFI is the only guy qualified to be there. Thinking about it, MOST flights the CFI is the only qualified guy. I guess commercial and ATP are about the only ratings that isn't true and those make up a fraction of training flights.

 

[poadeleted20]

CFI is in 'command'. If your instructor says turn left and you want to turn right guess which way you turn.

More than that, if the CFI says turn left and you turn left into a TFR, it is the CFI who eats the violation. In fact, if you fly into a TFR while receiving training from a CFI, it won't matter which way the CFI told you to turn -- the CFI eats the violation (unless the CFI charges you with mutiny for disobeying his/her directions).

Well, not really "mutiny", but violation of 14 CFR 91.11.

 

[EdFred]

Agree / Disagree

CFI is in 'command'. If your instructor says turn left and you want to turn right guess which way you turn.

Also, a CFII is the only guy in the plane qualified to be there if on a flight plan. Heck, in primary training the CFI is the only guy qualified to be there. Thinking about it, MOST flights the CFI is the only qualified guy. I guess commercial and ATP are about the only ratings that isn't true and those make up a fraction of training flights.

Yeah, but just because you are in command of something, doesn't mean you are increasing your piloting skills - which I think is what the time in the logbook *should* reflect. Yes, I know more hours doesn't = better, but it should.

14,000 of PIC time with 13,750 of it being CFI doesn't really say anything about their flying skills, which is why I think it shouldn't be logged as PIC time.

 

[dmspilot]

Personally, I don't think CFIs should get PIC time for not flying the plane.

Really, you don't think constantly catching student mistakes is worth anything?

 

[EdFred]

Really, you don't think constantly catching student mistakes is worth anything?

Is Dave Pelz on the money list on the PGA tour?

You can be a great teacher, and a horrible flyer. And vice versa. Instruction/training given should end at that, instruction/training given. Not flight time, not PIC time. Just plain ol' instruction given.

 

[Captain]

To me, when I look at an applicants PIC time I'm not gauging how good a stick they are. I'm gauging how much decision making time they have. Total time steers me towards how much stick and rudder they have and I can further break that down by aircraft.

Honestly, after 500 hours or so it's just proficiency. But experience takes time to build. Two pilots, both with 5,000 hours. One has 500 PIC and the other has 4,000 PIC, unless the 2nd guy has something crazy in his logbook I'm going to lean towards him.

Also, the stick and rudder thing is why many companies throw you in a sim before the offer is made. But honestly, most people can fly just fine. It's really the decision making capability and the answer to 'can we get along with you' that employers are looking for.


Regardless, PIC should, IMO, reflect how much decision making time you have...as a qualified pilot. So, by that logic, safety pilot is out and CFI is in.

 

[EdFred]

We'll never agree on that, because 99.99999999999999% of GA flight time the PIC decisions are yaaawwwwwwwwwwwwn.

A retarded monkey could make the same decisions.

"Should we go north or south around that single build up?"
"Hmmm, I don't know you're PIC, it's your call"
"Let's go south, because I feel like Mexican food instead of poutine tonight."

Yeah, some real decision making prowess exercised there.

My biggest decision are whether I can fly for another hour to my destination, or should I stop now and pee. I'm glad those tough decisions weigh into whether you hire me or not.

 

[JeffDG]

"Let's go south, because I feel like Mexican food instead of poutine tonight."

That should be grounds for Emergency Revocation right there.

 

[midlifeflyer]

So the non-BFR current pilot logging PIC time instead of the guy deciding how the plane will be flown is just an outlying issue?

Seems like there are a thousand of these and I really don't see the benefit? I'm not suggesting the Sole-Manipulator (SM) can't log it, just not PIC unless they really are.

Why is having ONE person who is the final authority for the operation of the flight logging the PIC such a hard concept?

It's not. It's exactly the FAA's concept. Only one person is the final authority (aka acting as PIC).

I think you're trying to make "logged PIC" into something it's not. it's simply not an indication of who was in ultimate command on a flight.

"Logged" PIC time under 61.51 is just an artificial construct designed to do only one thing - it's the way the FAA chose to count flight time toward the requirements for FAA certificates, FAA ratings, and FAA currency. Reading an more than that into it or thinking that it was designed meet any other purpose is a mistake.

Why did the FAA choose to count FAA time in this way? Beats the heck out of me. You'd probably have to go pretty far back to even try to find an answer - during a recuperation with lots of time on my hands, I found the concept of counting flight time other than true command time toward certificates, ratings and currency as early as the CAR regs in the 1930s.

There are those who simply refuse to accept that and won't. Whether it's a matter of a belief in what's "right," a difficulty in separating similar sounding concepts, or whatever, beats me since it doesn't bother me one way or the other; it's just not important enough to me in the scheme of things. If the FAA decided tomorrow to count "bizzoozle time" toward certificates, ratings and currency, it would be just fine also.

 

[Larry in TN]

Regardless, PIC should, IMO, reflect how much decision making time you have...as a qualified pilot. So, by that logic, safety pilot is out and CFI is in.

You are forgetting WHY we log flight time. Read 14 CFR 61.51(a) for the only resons why we log flight time according to the FAA.

Sec. 61.51 — Pilot logbooks.

(a) Training time and aeronautical experience. Each person must document and record the following time in a manner acceptable to the Administrator:

(1) Training and aeronautical experience used to meet the requirements for a certificate, rating, or flight review of this part.

(2) The aeronautical experience required for meeting the recent flight experience requirements of this part.​

This is why airlines typically have a different definition of "PIC" time on their applications. Their goal is different from the FAA's when it comes to reporting flight time.