Logging flight time w/o a medical certificate?

[schomburg]

As discussed in an earlier thread, I'll soon be starting insulin, which will invalidate my current Class 3 medical certificate. I'll then enter a six-month waiting period before applying for a special issuance.

It's very clear that PIC privileges will cease with my first insulin dose. However, during the wait for a special issuance, I will want to maintain instrument currency, and general flight proficiency. So I'll be flying with friends and instructors quite a lot.

Can I log any flight time and/or count approaches toward currency in the following scenarios?

[1] Practice approaches flown under the hood in VMC, with an instrument-rated safety pilot (possibly CFI, not CFII) as PIC.

[2] Training approaches flown in IMC with a CFII as PIC. (Log as dual instruction?)

[3] General cross-country flights in VMC with a fellow pilot as PIC, of which I fly a significant portion.

[4] Actual IMC/IFR flights with a fellow instrument-rated pilot as PIC, of which I fly a significant portion.

Obviously it will be important to get a PIC signature in my logbook for any of these.

Thanks ...
Dick Schomburg
Hillsboro, OR

 

[bbchien]

1] Practice approaches flown under the hood in VMC, with an instrument-rated safety pilot (possibly CFI, not CFII) as PIC.

[2] Training approaches flown in IMC with a CFII as PIC. (Log as dual instruction?)

[3] General cross-country flights in VMC with a fellow pilot as PIC, of which I fly a significant portion.

[4] Actual IMC/IFR flights with a fellow instrument-rated pilot as PIC, of which I fly a significant portion.

(1) Yes. Just be careful, the IR rated safety pilot may not have the on-tap skills to act from the right seat. His medical and IR currency need to be adequate.
(2) I forget if you have the IR. But IIRC, you don't; then it's instruction; if you have the IR it's also PIC sole manipulator.
(3) When you are sole manipulator, you can log PIC (when rated cat/class).
(4) No. This person is not a CFII. If you do not have the IR, he has to be sole manipulator and legal PIC; you cannot be legal PIC as thsi is not instruction. You're passenger.

Best, Bruce CFIA-I-MEI/Sen. AME.

 

[BruceAir]

For a good discussion of this topic, see:

http://www.aopa.org/members/files/topics/pic.html

(You must be an AOPA member to access this page.)

N.B. the following excerpts:

Unlike driving cars, the PIC may allow anyone, including a non-pilot, a pilot who may not legally act as pilot in command, or another fully qualified pilot fly the airplane, or be "sole manipulator of the controls" during the flight. The PIC is not required to sit in the left pilot seat. Regardless of where the PIC is sitting in the airplane or who is manipulating the controls, the PIC is ultimately responsible and accountable for the safety and operation of the flight.

A pilot may log PIC time when he/she is the sole occupant of the aircraft; is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated or has privileges; or is acting as PIC where more than one pilot is required (FAR 1.1,61.51 [e]). The Federal Aviation Regulations (FARs) provide several situations (see scenarios listed below) where two or more pilots may log PIC time, even though there can only be one pilot acting as PIC.

...


A pilot, whether acting as PIC or not, may log PIC time any time in which he/she is sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which he/she is rated (FAR 61.51). This is true regardless of weather conditions, whether VFR or IFR, simulated or actual. [Emphasis added]


....


For example, if you are a non-instrument rated, private pilot with airplane, single engine land privileges, you would be considered appropriately "rated" to log PIC time anytime (in VFR or IFR conditions) you are sole manipulator of the controls of any (high performance or tailwheel) single engine airplane configured for takeoff and landing on land (unless, of course the airplane required a specific type rating, which is required for jet aircraft and aircraft with gross weights over 12,500 lbs). Remember, although a pilot may log flight time as PIC under this provision, there must still be someone in the aircraft who is legally acting as PIC.

Other good links on this topic from AOPA include:



http://www.aopa.org/members/files/topics/sftyplt.html


An AOPA page with links to lots of information about logging time is at:


http://www.aopa.org/members/files/topics/logbooks.html

 

[schomburg]

Thanks, guys, that's very helpful. I realize that I was not making the proper distinction between ACTING as PIC and LOGGING TIME as PIC. I'll now dig out the rest of the details.

(This is somewhat academic at the moment, as our 182 has an engine overhaul underway at Visalia ... )

Regards, Dick

 

[gismo]

(1) Yes. Just be careful, the IR rated safety pilot may not have the on-tap skills to act from the right seat. His medical and IR currency need to be adequate.
(2) I forget if you have the IR. But IIRC, you don't; then it's instruction; if you have the IR it's also PIC sole manipulator.
(3) When you are sole manipulator, you can log PIC (when rated cat/class).
(4) No. This person is not a CFII. If you do not have the IR, he has to be sole manipulator and legal PIC; you cannot be legal PIC as thsi is not instruction. You're passenger.

Bruce (and Dick), I see no reason why Dick can't log all of this as PIC, so long as he's the sole manipulator (and rated category/class). 61.51 makes no mention of flight conditions and an IR doesn't change the cat/class status.

I do agree that Dick's right seater should be capable of flying/landing from that side of the plane, although that's not truly a legal requirement.

 

[wsuffa]

Bruce (and Dick), I see no reason why Dick can't log all of this as PIC, so long as he's the sole manipulator (and rated category/class). 61.51 makes no mention of flight conditions and an IR doesn't change the cat/class status.

I do agree that Dick's right seater should be capable of flying/landing from that side of the plane, although that's not truly a legal requirement.

Lance, since the right seater has to be IFR current w/medical, and is legal (not acting) PIC, I'd think that the right seater would need - maybe not in a technical legal sense - to be fully capable from the right side. And better hope that nothing goes wrong otherwise.

 

[BruceAir]

My post wasn't intended as an endorsement of any activity, just a reference to some explanatory material about the legalities involved.

What's legal isn't necessarily smart.

Going into actual IFR with a safety pilot who isn't a current, qualified, and proficient CFII seems to me to fit into the latter category.

If my goal was to maintain proficiency while waiting for my medical to be restored, I'd choose to fly with a CFII--or better, find a school with a good simulator and log some serious time in the box, mixed with some airborne practice with a CFII.

I suggest using a CFII not because an instrument-rated pilot willing to act as PIC isn't competent to fly on the gauges. It's just that an experienced instructor has more practice monitoring a flight and dealing with situations that might arise. Plus, a good instructor can help you break bad habits and pass along useful tips.

 

[gismo]

Lance, since the right seater has to be IFR current w/medical, and is legal (not acting) PIC, I'd think that the right seater would need - maybe not in a technical legal sense - to be fully capable from the right side. And better hope that nothing goes wrong otherwise.

I thought that's what I said?

 

[bbchien]

I thought that's what I said?

It is, Lance, as is what I said. But that's OK. Now it's only seven and a half years since the overhaul of part 61 and at least there is agreement.

May the John Lynch website rest in peace.

 

[wsuffa]

I thought that's what I said?

It is Lance. I just, shall we say, embellished it a bit.....



bill

 

[Ed Guthrie]

(1) Yes. Just be careful, the IR rated safety pilot may not have the on-tap skills to act from the right seat. His medical and IR currency need to be adequate.
(2) I forget if you have the IR. But IIRC, you don't; then it's instruction; if you have the IR it's also PIC sole manipulator.
(3) When you are sole manipulator, you can log PIC (when rated cat/class).
(4) No. This person is not a CFII. If you do not have the IR, he has to be sole manipulator and legal PIC; you cannot be legal PIC as thsi is not instruction. You're passenger.

I agree with Lance. #1 is correct and prudent advice. #2 is incorrect. The sole manipulator/left seat pilot need not have an instrument rating in order to log PIC time in IMC. #3 is correct, and is why #2 is incorrect. Instrument rating is not an aircraft rating, it is a flight conditions rating. #4 is incorrect. Agreed the left seat pilot is a passenger and equally agreed that the right seat pilot must be legal PIC since the left seat pilot cannot. However, there is no legal requirement that the right seat pilot also be the sole manipulator or that the left seat pilot may not be the sole manipulator (and therefor log PIC time).

Bruce, did you perhaps answer questions other than those asked?

Ed Guthrie

 

[bbchien]

(Dick Schomburg)Can I log any flight time and/or count approaches toward currency in the following scenarios?

No Ed, but I understood the question to be about logging, not acting. In either instance which you cite as incorrect, it would be idiocy to log it because in the instance of #4, heas a passenger, in the Instance of #2, the guy is teaching without a CFI and can spend some long times on the ground if he gets caught. Dont' be logging those situations.....

 

[Ed Guthrie]

No Ed, but I understood the question to be about logging, not acting. In either instance which you cite as incorrect, it would be idiocy to log it because in the instance of #4, heas a passenger, in the Instance of #2, the guy is teaching without a CFI and can spend some long times on the ground if he gets caught. Dont' be logging those situations.....

Bruce, one of us read the questions incorrectly. The questions:

Can I log any flight time and/or count approaches toward currency in the following scenarios?

[1] Practice approaches flown under the hood in VMC, with an instrument-rated safety pilot (possibly CFI, not CFII) as PIC.

[2] Training approaches flown in IMC with a CFII as PIC. (Log as dual instruction?)

[3] General cross-country flights in VMC with a fellow pilot as PIC, of which I fly a significant portion.

[4] Actual IMC/IFR flights with a fellow instrument-rated pilot as PIC, of which I fly a significant portion.


In each case the question is posed relative to the left seat pilot (no medical) who is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which s/he is rated.

#1 has an instrument rated, fully current/qualified, acting as legal PIC safety pilot in the right seat. Answer: Yes, left seat pilot may log PIC as sole manipulator.

#2 swaps the safety pilot for a CFI-IA in the right seat, again acting as legal PIC, and swaps simulated instrument flight for IMC and IFR flight plan. Answer: Yes, left seat pilot may log PIC as sole manipulator. Left seat pilot may also log as dual received.

#3 swaps the CFI-IA for a private pilot, again, fully qualified and acting as legal PIC, but removes simulated instrument in previous questions and returns to VMC/VFR versus IMC/IFR in #2. Answer: Yes, left seat pilot may log PIC as sole manipulator.

#4 swaps safety pilot and/or CFI-IA for an instrument rated pilot, acting as legal PIC, again fully qualified and current, and flight moves to IMC on an IFR flight plan (same conditions as #2) versus VMC/VFR with simulated IFR in #1. Answer: Yes, left seat pilot may log PIC as sole manipulator.


Then again, I may have totally misunderstood the question premises.

Ed Guthrie

 

[bbchien]

Hmmmn. For #4, he can log but the IR rated non cfi pilot can't log a thing. If he logs anything, it's illegal. So Dick Can log but only if the non CFI in the right seat does not.

Ironic with #2, I just chewed my spouse out who of course assumes when I'm at the computer I'm doing nothing. She's doing it again. I missed that the guy was a CFI-I. Yes he logs PIC manipulator.

Sigh. Thanks, Ed.
No honey actually I'm thinking about something complex at the moment.

 

[Ed Guthrie]

Hmmmn. For #4, he can log but the IR rated non cfi pilot can't log a thing. If he logs anything, it's illegal. So Dick Can log but only if the non CFI in the right seat does not.

If the right seat logs PIC time, too, it is an illegal log entry for the right seat pilot, not Dick. Within scenario #4 the right seat pilot has no basis within 61.51(e) by which s/he may log PIC time. OTOH, Dick is entitled to log PIC for his time as the sole manipulator regardless of what the right seat pilot legally or illegally logs.

Ed Guthrie