Let’s say you get intercepted by F16’s…

Discussion in 'Flight Following' started by RyanB, Sep 12, 2021.

  1. Velocity173

    Velocity173 Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Actually 3 armed F-16s but doesn’t mention the callsign of the 3rd. They had a CAP established over DC at 1000. Flight 93 crashed at 1003.

    Why not in the media? Don’t know. Story of a female fighter pilot contemplating ramming an airliner is far more interesting I guess.
    https://theaviationist.com/2011/09/07/9-11/
     
  2. RyanShort1

    RyanShort1 En-Route

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    Not if there's a suitcase nuke.
     
  3. Witmo

    Witmo Pattern Altitude

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    Written like a true armchair expert. The vast majority of intelligence successes are not publicized as to protect sources and methods. Many attacks have been thwarted by good intelligence, it's just you don't hear about it. The bad guys only have to get it right once to make the news but their many unsuccessful attempts don't usually get the press. Intel tries to get it right every time but that's an impossible goal to achieve. When they do get it wrong, hopefully, something is learned by it. To say the intelligence community has proven worthless is a gross mischaracterization of the hard work of many dedicated intelligence personnel. Bush Jr's weapons of mass destruction excuse for an Iraq invasion was laid off as an intelligence failure when it should have been laid off as a Bush Administration failure as they refused to accept any intelligence contrary to their preconceived rationale for an invasion.
     
  4. Lindberg

    Lindberg En-Route

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    Yes, that's the exception; but Jack Ryan will have to give the order himself.
     
  5. Doug Reid

    Doug Reid Line Up and Wait

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    While watching tv documentaries about 911 over the weekend, I watched an interview of a female F16 pilot who was told to try to find and intercept one of the hijacked airliners. She commented that they had NO WEAPONS aboard...and went further to explain that weapons/ missiles had to be assembled/armed and loaded...they were scrambled without any time for this to happen. She said she was going to ram the tail with her aircraft and hoped she could survive the mission. The objective was to take down the airliner...which if I remember correctly, crashed in PA. She said all weapons had been removed from the fighter jets since we had achieved victory in the cold war...leaving us caught with our pants down in a crisis.

    She was a National Guard pilot.
     
  6. Mtns2Skies

    Mtns2Skies En-Route

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    Ask Goose.
     
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  7. Crashnburn

    Crashnburn Cleared for Takeoff

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    I seem to recall a huge cache of nuclear weapons grade explosives in Iraq was discovered and destroyed during the Gulf War. That cache alone qualified as a weapon of mass destruction.
     
  8. Witmo

    Witmo Pattern Altitude

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    Funny, I have no recollection of weapons grade nuclear materials being found in Iraq. There might have been some unrefined yellow cake uranium stockpiled but nothing that could be made into a fission bomb without extensive and sophisticated processing There were some chemical munitions found in a warehouse that were apparently forgotten and leaking chemicals. The poor condition of the munitions were an indication they were not usable as designed and more a hazard to anyone handling them then an employable threat against Americans.
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2021
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  9. Rushie

    Rushie En-Route

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    I thought I remembered Saddam saying he deliberately misled the CIA into thinking he had WMDs because he wanted Iran to think so.
     
  10. Witmo

    Witmo Pattern Altitude

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    I also remember Colin Powell briefing the UN on Iraqi portable chemical/biological processing facilities that could produce chemical agents complete with drawings of the box car/semi trailer labs. This intel was characterized as unreliable by the intel community that collected and reported it but all such caveats were disregarded by Bush's inner circle. Apparently Powell was not told the whole story and was very angry that he was used to promulgate the WMD myth with what turned out to be totally fabricated "intel" he was assured was from a reliable source. One of the primary sources was a Iraqi dissident who had many reasons to want the US to topple Saddam. This was one reason the information could not be considered reliable and yet the US marketed it as proof positive.
     
  11. Witmo

    Witmo Pattern Altitude

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    Undoubtedly, that's why such information is considered unreliable unless it can be verified by trusted sources. No one in the CIA believes at face value what anyone tells them, much less an enemy leader. Using untrustworthy sources to confirm untrustworthy information isn't the way it's supposed to be done. The Intel community still has to report whatever gets collected but the people in charge are supposed to understand and take into account the caveats that get attached to such information. Bush's administration chose to use the info and portray it as something it wasn't. It wasn't proof and everyone with the full story would have known that. The Bush administration certainly believed Saddam had WMD but they had a convenient scape goat in the Intelligence community to blame when none was found.
     
  12. Lindberg

    Lindberg En-Route

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    I also remember having a conversation with someone from the UN team that went in after the invasion who told me unequivocally that there had been WMDs in Iraq before the invasion that were not located after. Even Blix believed Saddam had WMDs. Someday we'll learn the truth.
     
  13. Pugs

    Pugs Line Up and Wait PoA Supporter

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    Saddam's own scientist mislead him into thinking so too as failure was a quick trip to the torture chamber for them and their families. They did such a good job convincing him they were making progress they convinced us too! All the evidence was there but it was mostly faked.

    (add) I worked with someone who served on the UN team before the war and his stories of how regime fought to keep them out was pretty convincing to the WMD story.
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2021
  14. Witmo

    Witmo Pattern Altitude

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    There were most assuredly chemical weapons in Iraq before the invasion because Saddam used them against Iran before Desert Storm and after against his own dissident Iraqi population. At the time of the Bush Jr. invasion, however, all such capability didn't exist anymore. Saddam did a good job of hiding this fact leaving the threat out there for people to believe. Believing in something and having proof of something are two different things. The existence of God is a belief and is a matter of faith but many have a hard time proving it. The Bush administration marketed IRAQI FREEDOM as the removal of a WMD capability they claimed was proven. Would Bush have had support for spending billions of dollars and American lives on a belief or gut feeling. Should we go to war in the future on hunches regardless how good they seem at the time?

    Should our current and future Presidents send us into a conflict because he knows more than his generals and contrary to the available information gathered by an intelligence community that reports to him which he considers "worthless." Or should we hold accountable administrations for bad decisions erroneously justified by incomplete or unreliable information?
     
  15. Pilots Of America Management

    Pilots Of America Management MC Announcements and Communication Management Council Member

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    Folks, let’s be sure not to get on a tangent here and drift too far off of the original topic with Spin Zone-like discussion.
     
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  16. EdFred

    EdFred Taxi to Parking

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    Or is what we are being told up until now the actual 'truth.' There's so much misdirection, obfuscation, and cover ups by all governments about, well, everything, that it's nigh impossible to know what ever really was the case. Maybe the information was the truth, but other things were found that they don't want us to know about that, it's better to just say, yeah, this information was all wrong, so people stop asking questions.
     
  17. Jeff767

    Jeff767 Pre-takeoff checklist

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    At the point the aircraft was intercepted it was known that the hijacked aircraft were being used as Kamikazes. It’s highly unlikely that anyone would think it was going to be landed and ransom demands made. Even the passengers onboard knew it.
     
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  18. Jeff767

    Jeff767 Pre-takeoff checklist

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    No, you could however have put a winder into each engine and possibly forced it down however it’s likely you would have flamed the wing tanks and destroyed the aircraft.
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2021
  19. Ed Haywood

    Ed Haywood Line Up and Wait

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    It is well documented that Cheney gave a shoot down order in response to reports of another hijacked aircraft inbound to DC. Not sure of the exact timeline and whether the reported aircraft was United 93 or a mystery aircraft. However, the decision was made and the order given, so saying "it would never happen" is demonstrably false.

    I will exit this discussion with Bush Jr's excellent closing at Shanksville:

    Twenty years ago, terrorists chose a random group of Americans, on a routine flight, to be collateral damage in a spectacular act of terror. The 33 passengers and 7 crew of Flight 93 could have been any group of citizens selected by fate. In that sense, they stood in for us all.

    The terrorists soon discovered that a random group of Americans is an exceptional group of people. Facing an impossible circumstance, they comforted their loved ones by phone, braced each other for action, and defeated the designs of evil.

    These Americans were brave, strong, and united in ways that shocked the terrorists – but should not surprise any of us. This is the nation we know. And whenever we need hope and inspiration, we can look to the skies and remember.
     
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  20. Piperonca

    Piperonca Pre-takeoff checklist PoA Supporter

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    AMEN
     
  21. Lindberg

    Lindberg En-Route

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    Which plane was shot down? None. And Cheney's orders never made it to anyone who could act on them.
     
  22. Velocity173

    Velocity173 Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    His orders did make it to someone (F-16) who could act on them. The orders just arrived too late (1039 AM). They were prepared to execute.
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2021
  23. Lindberg

    Lindberg En-Route

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    Negative. That's what NORAD believed, but according to the 9/11 commission, it was never conveyed to the pilots through the chain of command because of the possible ramifications:

    There were DC ANG planes flying CAP over DC that had allegedly been ordered weapons free but the weren't coordinating with anyone but USSS.
     
  24. Albany Tom

    Albany Tom Line Up and Wait PoA Supporter

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    Ok, that's the funniest description of any vice president I've ever read! Physically, effectively, it's just perfect... :)
     
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  25. Velocity173

    Velocity173 Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    There wasn’t anything alleged. Those pilots (113th) received orders not from NEADS but from the White House (PEOC). Specific orders to protect the White House and any aircraft threatening the Capitol. This was interpreted by the general as “weapons free.” That was relayed to pilots that departed after 1042. It’s also pretty clear that Wild 1/2 (Heather Penny) that departed at 1028 were to protect the White House at all costs.

    1D5472BA-D139-40B3-8DD9-73357688CD9E.jpeg
     
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  26. Lindberg

    Lindberg En-Route

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    Those were the DC Guard planes, not Mass Guard. And there was no one for them to shoot at, so no way to know what they would have done.
     
  27. Velocity173

    Velocity173 Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Yeah, I corrected that already…even though WIKI reports F-15s departing at 1039 had orders to shoot, I can’t confirm that.

    As far as no one to shoot at, that’s not the topic at hand. You stated that the VP’s orders never made it to the pilots and that it was “alleged” that the DC pilots were weapons free. In fact, those orders were given to the pilots not thru NEADS but thru their immediate chain of command (General Wherley) and they were definitely weapons free status.

    Just because no airliner was shoot down doesn’t mean they weren’t prepared to. The pilots of Wild flight were discussing shooting down the aircraft prior to departure. Wild 4 actually locked up an suspicious inbound primary target that ended up being another flight of F-16s. This wasn’t a recon mission, they were ready to engage.

    Now if you want to debate whether or not the VP was authorized to issue those orders that’s a whole other topic but Bush and Cheney seem to have their stories straight.
     
  28. Rushie

    Rushie En-Route

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    Stupid question: “weapons free” doesn’t mean a gun free zone? It means they were free to use weapons? Or use their plane as a weapon?
     
  29. Pugs

    Pugs Line Up and Wait PoA Supporter

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    Weapons free means it's up to the pilot to employ their weapons as the threat has been verified. I suppose if you don't have any actual weapons the plane becomes the weapon.

    Usually there's a Rules of Engagement (ROE) condition in front of weapons free to let the crew know the state of the threat as well. "Warning red - Weapons free" would mean the threat has been verified as hostile. "Warning Yellow weapons free" would mean if the target makes an offensive move you're cleared to shoot and there are a few other conditions too. I'm sure some of that has changed since my day.
     
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  30. sourdough44

    sourdough44 Pattern Altitude

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    Yes, we need ‘Top Gun II’ to get released. After watching we’ll likely get some fresh aviation phrases to banter about.
     
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  31. Velocity173

    Velocity173 Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    The definition applies to actually firing on something and not using their own aircraft. It’s a very liberal order since if there’s any doubt as to an aircraft not being friendly, they are to shoot it down. Pretty subjective, hence the statement it’s in the pilots hands on what CoA to take.

    Very few cases of weapons free in combat. Generally it’s tight with a color condition of the weapon being used. “After passing phase line delta, weapons tight and yellow.”
     
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  32. Shepherd

    Shepherd En-Route

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    You are almost correct. A huge cache of yellow cake uranium was found and secreted away (probably to the US), not explosives.
    They also found some gas weapons, which they destroyed.
     
  33. midwestpa24

    midwestpa24 En-Route

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    I also recall hearing about chemical weapons being employed in Syria a couple of years ago, weapons that may or may not have originated from Iraq.
     
  34. UngaWunga

    UngaWunga Pattern Altitude

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  35. Witmo

    Witmo Pattern Altitude

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    Syria had an extensive chemical capability both to produce weapons and to employ them. It didn't need anything from Iraq. In some ways it would have been a real problem for Assad to obtain, store, deploy and employ weapons from Iraq given their probable condition--possible but not practical.
     
  36. keen9

    keen9 Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Not really a fantasy at all. Yes exhaust in the right place to be ingested by the airliner could cause a flameout. The problem is a flameout wouldn't do too much as turbine engines are really reliable. As soon as the exhaust was not in the right place the engine would likely auto restart.
     
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  37. ChemGuy

    ChemGuy Cleared for Takeoff

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    Break hard, turn on the radar and call fangs out?

    but then I fly an RV…..:D
     
  38. danhagan

    danhagan Pattern Altitude

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    Just a "heads up" guys:

    It's not always a "jet" that'll be arriving for the intercept. Near Tuscon, that's all I've heard/seen (121.5 on comm 2 is fun on cross country flights).

    Personally, I've been "followed" but was already on 121.5 by a C182, C210 and once by a King Air. If you live near the border and fly a lot for years, you're bound to meet new friends sometime:eek::confused:

    The two cessna encounters were because I used to fly a LOT at night all over the west here. They were nice, probably bored, and just wanted to see what's up. The King Air "arrived" when I was flying the border and I had a "visitor" form up behind me with their transponder off. ATC asked me to switch to another channel and directed me to perform basically a box maneuver, I saw the aircraft on the second turn and he bugged out into Mexico. King air arrived shortly after and explained they thought he was trying to cross the ADIZ and ghost under me. ATC had a primary but not an altitude ...

    Have also had ATC ask me to "relay" to the Mexican airforce pilots that were running low altitude into U.S. airspace when I was between Pecos and Guadalupe Peak (basically was told to tell them to leave as they weren't supposed to go low on the deck).
     
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  39. Velocity173

    Velocity173 Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Yeah, that’s CBP “Omaha” aircraft. Worked their C210s on approach before that were trailing a suspicious aircraft. They use PC12s these days as well.
     
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  40. Zeldman

    Zeldman Touchdown! Greaser!

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    When I was flying air ambulance there were flights to some small airports very near the New Mexico/Mexico border very late at night. A few times after landing the police would show up to check if we were Ok. Most of the time they would see the ambulance and just drive by.