Lawsuit Madness - OMG

Discussion in 'Hangar Talk' started by CT4ME, Oct 10, 2013.

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  1. Matthew

    Matthew Touchdown! Greaser!

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    That could mean there probably was no 'accident', it was probably an 'incident'. We've had several of each around here, and in all cases FAA/NTSB checks fuel quantity (f they get involved). They want to know - starvation or exhaustion? It's going to be hard to find a pattern if no one measures fuel remaining after one of these episodes. Was there fuel left? If yes, how much and why didn't it work? If not, where did it go?

    In this case, the pilot says he had plenty of fuel for his flight (plus reserves), but the engine disagreed. Measuring the remaining fuel in the tank seems like a good way to start, if you really do want to figure out what happened. But the pilot says watever fuel was left splashed out through the vent so an empty tank won't mean anything.
     
  2. vintage cessna

    vintage cessna Cleared for Takeoff

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    Wonder what his instructors told him about fuel management? Most instructors will say never trust a gauge or a stick. Probably none of them thought to say never take off with one tank empty and a few gallons sloshing around the other.
     
  3. murphey

    murphey Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    My suggestion is that all of us just ignore this thread. Reminds me of the person on the corner of two of the busiest streets in town. He has a large, hand-written religious sign. His constitutional right to stand there and voice his personal opinion. But I have no obligation to stop and discuss religion with him, nor agree nor disagree. I just ignore him and go on my way.

    At least Pete Flemming was funny at times.

    And yes, I have read the suit. It was painful to read with the spelling & grammar mistakes.
     
  4. Matthew

    Matthew Touchdown! Greaser!

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    I think that's why he's suing.
     
  5. danielabernath

    danielabernath Pre-Flight

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    Re: Lawsuit Madness - OMG
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by jtheune View Post
    I was wondering the same thing. I just spent a few minutes trying to find anything about the mythical 8 gallons of fuel starvation accident but can't find anything.
    I couldn't find any reference to Dan's repeated assertion either. Certainly such an incident/accident would have an official report somewhere. He wouldn't make something like that up, would he? After all he is of such high moral character that they won't even let him play lawyer in Oregon
    [​IMG]

    Why do you keep posting on a public forum when you've made such a monkey of yourself?

    US Pilot’s CTSW engine suffers fuel starvation: NASA report Narrative: aircraft CTSW NASA ASRS Report 739488, May 2007 I kept climbing until I knew I was power off gliding distance from the runway. At that point I closed the throttle again and the engine not only lost power but came to a complete stop. (Not wind-milling anymore.) Left tank of the flight design was empty. Right tank had (mythical?) 8 gals. This is a 31.5 gal system so we are saying that one quarter of the total fuel was still on board the aircraft. The ct flight design burns 4-5 gph. So I should have been good for at least another hour and a half. Also there is no option for switching tanks with a fuel selector and there is no auxiliary fuel pump like you have on most other GA aircraft. The only conclusion we could come up with logically was fuel starvation in the left tank and no options to access the fuel in the right tank.
    22. On 30 June 2009 and 28 May 2012 The British version of the FAA and/or the NTSB investigated a fuel starvation of CTSWs and ordered Flight Design to warn its British pilots (Flight Design did not warn Plaintiff or other United States pilots)

    AAIB Bulletin: 6/2010 G-CERA EW/G2009/06/06
    ACCIDENT
    Aircraft Type and Registration: Flight Design CTSW, G-CERA
    No & Type of Engines: 1 Rotax 912ULS piston engine
    Year of Manufacture: 2007
    Date & Time (UTC): 30 June 2009 at 1101 hrs
    Previous power loss incidents on this aircraft type have been attributed by some to the fuel outlets in the tanks becoming uncovered due to fuel sloshing during uncoordinated turns with low fuel levels, resulting in fuel starvation.

    (However) In this case the aircraft reportedly had significant fuel on board and was not manoeuvring.
    23. Another British fuel starvation of which defendants were aware:


    TITLE Fuel System, …. A CTSW ran out of fuel when apparently 5 litres remained in one tank and no fuel indicated in the other. The reported circumstances of the accident indicate that the engine became starved of fuel. The nature of the tank design is not conducive to accurate gauging, with any sustained sideslip or nose-down attitude effectively generating quantities of unusable fuel in excess of the 0.5 litres stated by the aircraft manufacturer. In fact the manufacturer’s own tests, conducted with the aircraft on the ground, indicated a significant increase in the unusable fuel quantity when the aircraft attitude changed from the straight and level. The manufacturer additionally noted that it was possible to restart the engine following temporary fuel starvation; however, this might not be a practical procedure for pilots in the course of a normal flight and, moreover, would not comply with BCARS959, which refers to the first 86 © Crown copyright 2010 AAIB Bulletin: 8/2010 G-VINH EW/C2009/08/02 evidence of malfunctioning.



    Safety Recommendation 2010-045

    It is recommended that Flight Design GmbH, together with P&M Aviation, revise their assessment of the unusable fuel in the CTSWaircraft.



    Additional safety action

    Following this accident, P&M Aviation declared their intention to publish a Service Letter which will explain the effects of aircraft attitude and turbulence on fuel feed at low fuel levels. In addition, it will point out that the minimum quantity that the fuel sight gauge will indicate is 3 litres. (appx. 8/10 gallon) Finally, a placard will be required to be fitted to the aircraft advising the pilot that he or she must ensure that at least 1 cm of fuel is visible on both fuel contents sight gauges at all times.



    CLASSIFICATION The CAA have classified this bulletin as Mandatory

    COMPLIANCE Read and amend operations as directed, append to manual.

    APPLICABILITY All UK registered CT2K and CTSW aircraft.


    7) A placard must be attached to the instrument panel as follows:


    MONITOR FUEL SIGHT GAUGES REGULARLY.

    BOTH GAUGES MUST SHOW SOME FUEL.

    LAND IF NO FUEL IS SEEN IN EITHER SIGHT GAUGE.
     
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2013
  6. poadeleted21

    poadeleted21 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    If he's referring to the one in Utah, the NTSB determined "Engine stopped for undetermined reasons" There was some blurb about the choke being on, then the pilot turning it off. I'm not familiar with chokes in airplanes.
     
  7. poadeleted21

    poadeleted21 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    It's a NASA report. In other word's it's only the pilots testimony (and nothing else) of what happened and most people use them because it has the potential to shield them from disciplinary action if they did something stupid.
    You would have been wise to fill one out too.

    In other words, it holds about as much weight as proof as random message board postings, maybe even less. At least claims on a message board are peer reviewed and open for criticism.
     
  8. vintage cessna

    vintage cessna Cleared for Takeoff

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    The second example is a good one also, a grand total of 5 liters of fuel remaining in one tank, the other tank dry. An instructor can only talk about judgement, can't really teach it.
     
  9. eetrojan

    eetrojan Cleared for Takeoff

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    Here's a PDF of what appears to be his source, an anonymous report:

    2007 NASA Aviation Safety Report

    It appears that he quoted part of this unofficial, but more readable version in his complaint, under the self-serving heading "US Pilot's CTSW engine suffers fuel starvation":

    More Readable Version from www.37000feet.com
     
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2013
  10. SCCutler

    SCCutler Administrator Management Council Member PoA Supporter

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    ...sorta like citing to Wikipedia...
     
  11. weilke

    weilke Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    With 5 litres (1.3gal) I would expect the engine to quit in any condition except stationary on level ground.
     
  12. vintage cessna

    vintage cessna Cleared for Takeoff

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    Could have been caused by a number of things, vapor lock being one. While carb ice is not common on a ROTAX it has been know to happen. Some LSA with a ROTAX are equipped with carb heat, some not.
     
  13. jtheune

    jtheune En-Route

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    So you quote a NASA form report that has no investigation, just someone narrative and even then not all of it. As for what you have copied, it says that he climbed until he was within gliding distance then he closed the throttle and the engine stopped. So it was running before he stopped it.. The for the CAA warning it talks about the issues of un porting for nose down attitudes and sloshing of fuel. So far nothing you have posted here bolsters your case
     
  14. Matthew

    Matthew Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Didn't the guy say he was coordinated and intentionally lowered the nose? According to the report just posted, lowering the nose made a "significant increase in the unusable fuel quantity".
     
  15. jtheune

    jtheune En-Route

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    OK, so now I've seen the full NASA report and see that the pilots thinks the problem was fuel starvation but does not know for sure. DA keeps asking for fuel system experts but is willing to talk the word of a anonymous poster as the absolute truth. Ignores all other possible explanations such as carb icing.

    I am somewhat curious as to where this took place. The writer indicates that the plane lost power at 9000 15 miles from airport. The CTLS is specified at 14:1 for a glide ratio so why did he not just glide to the airport?
     
  16. bullwinkle

    bullwinkle Pattern Altitude

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    Boy, no kidding. The unporting of fuel when the tanks are low due to pitch or yaw changes is *very* well known to CT pilots. I know of only one other pilot that thinks it's good to run the tanks below 5 gallons or so indicated per side in the sight tubes, and that guy in probably headed to another incident like this one.
     
  17. danielabernath

    danielabernath Pre-Flight

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    So you die hard internet tough guys keep repeating yourselves.
    3 Lawyers have looked at the complaint and have said the legal equivalent of "Flight Design has its nuts in the vice".
    I'll check in to this in about 2 weeks as I have promised I won't respond to middle school insults, unsupported opinions and facts not in evidence.
    [​IMG]
    I love all of you and some of you have helped me (1. to see the silly arguments that Flight Design will make and forearm me to shred their strategy to tissue, 2. some actual knowledge about the fuel system. Bye.
     
  18. nddons

    nddons Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Liters? Gallons? I've got it! He can blame it on the metric system! Cha Ching $$$$$$$$$
     
  19. denverpilot

    denverpilot Taxi to Parking

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    See ya, dumb ass who ran his airplane out of gas! :)
     
  20. silver-eagle

    silver-eagle En-Route

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    I hope you lose and lose big. It is product liability lawsuits like this that have made the cost of a $20,000 vehicle $400,000 to buy. Instead of trying to suck money out of the system, how about working with the vendor to make the product better.
    I see nothing wrong with the design. I see a flaw in the pilots operation INCLUDING the guy who cleary could see fuel being used from only one tank. You are the pilot in command, the guy in charge, the brain of this inanimate object. YOU FAILED! The guy with the disparate use FAILED. Even IF the design is wrong, the failure was the PIC!
    almost 1,000 messages all have the same theme. PIC FAILED!
     
  21. poadeleted21

    poadeleted21 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Gimili Glider
     
  22. flyingcheesehead

    flyingcheesehead Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Speaking of making things up out of the blue... I looked up McGee v. Cessna.

    1) It's not a recent example. The crash happened before I was born (3/28/1971) and the court ruling happened on 1/18/1983.
    2) It was a Cardinal, not a Caravan.
    3) It had nothing to do with POH numbers.
    4) Nobody died.
    5) Cessna won the original lawsuit.
    6) Cessna ALSO won the appeal!

    http://www.leagle.com/decision/1983318139CalApp3d179_1307
     
  23. N801BH

    N801BH Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Looks like our resident attorney, Danial, is as full of siht as a Christmas Turkey...:yes::lol:
     
  24. pilot_dude

    pilot_dude En-Route

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    My wife would file a frivolous $10M lawsuit against you for not telling
    me that practice is dangerous.
     
  25. pilot_dude

    pilot_dude En-Route

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    Earlier you said 2 lawyers. By the way, how many looked at your drivel to find a couple who have a favorable opinion?
     
  26. flyingcheesehead

    flyingcheesehead Touchdown! Greaser!

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    To argue their case in front of a Social Security judge? :rofl:

    "Equivalent of a top secret clearance?" Yeah right. You either have it, or you don't. And considering that you can't keep ANYTHING a secret (a good lawyer could've told you it's a bad idea to discuss pending litigation), well, my BS meter is pegged.
     
  27. denverpilot

    denverpilot Taxi to Parking

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    Heh. You noticed that BS too, eh? Man this twit makes me laugh. :)
     
  28. flyingcheesehead

    flyingcheesehead Touchdown! Greaser!

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    <raises hand> with the exception of the "sloppy line ape" insult - I thought it was OTHER people who were using middle-school name-calling?

    <raises hand again> Oooooo, mememememe!!!!

    14 CFR 61.309:
    And, the Pilot's Handbook of Aeronautical Knowledge from the FAA - Y'know, that thing that tells us about those knowledge items that 61.309 is talking about. It's really simple, it has a chapter on aircraft systems (hmm, where have I heard of that before?) that says, in part (see page 6-26):

     
  29. frfly172

    frfly172 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    You can always find a lawyer to sue someone . I wonder did the lawyer take the case on spec or is the pilot paying him. I like the ct and most of their pilots ,they have a good web site that the pilot in question probably didn't access until the crash. Giving LS A pilots a bad name.
     
  30. Velocity173

    Velocity173 Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    Lol! I think that's the shortest post I've ever seen of yours. I think you officially fall under the definition of "Internet tough guy" though. :)
     
  31. Old Geek

    Old Geek Pattern Altitude

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    He did hang out at ctflier.com for awhile. There was conflict and he left.
     
  32. denverpilot

    denverpilot Taxi to Parking

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    Haha. You don't say.
     
  33. SoloEqs

    SoloEqs Line Up and Wait

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    It's the club he's in: "Can't Actually Aviate."
     
  34. SoloEqs

    SoloEqs Line Up and Wait

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    They're common in engines taken from ground use, such as snowmobile or motorcycle engines, when they use carbs without mixture control.
     
  35. poadeleted21

    poadeleted21 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    I read his "I'm starting this thread so you'll ban me" thread at sportpilottalk.com too. The admins wouldn't ban him :rolf:
     
  36. Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe

    Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    The Bing carburetors on the Rotax don't have an actual choke (as in a choke plate that closes off the venturi). It has a bypass circuit that will deliver a rich mixture when the "choke" knob is pulled and the throttle is closed. When the throttle is open, the enrichment circuit does very little.


    Now, given that the subject of this discussion claims to have been inadequately trained and therefore is not qualified to act as PIC, is there a risk that his wife will be sued for letting him use her airplane?
     
  37. MooneyDude

    MooneyDude Filing Flight Plan

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    The wife will probably end up suing because the mishap failed to kill him, and now she has to continue living with him! :p
     
  38. JeffDG

    JeffDG Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Inflection of Extreme Emotional Anguish.

    I liked in one of the news article about him assaulting the judge (for which he was convinced of disorderly conduct), one of the lawyers that works there referred to him as a "chronic whiner"
     
  39. FastEddieB

    FastEddieB Final Approach

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    While you're there, check out the thread on using an iPad groundspeed readout as a landing aid:

    http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=2574

    Again, the flow of that thread will give insight into what's going on here.

    Some rather prescient warnings were given by myself and others regarding his mindset and where it might lead.

    Oh, and ussyorktown was Mr. Bernath's screen name there.
     
  40. poadeleted21

    poadeleted21 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    That better than the "ill just kill the dog" thread. I'd like to meet the CFI who signed him off and the DPE who agreed. The airspeed portion of my oral exam were very in depth and would have sorted that nonsense out in the first 5 seconds.
     
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