Landing Without Engine Power
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SteveinIndy
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SteveinIndy
On a related note I often wonder what effect a simple version of ABS would have on the runway excursion/overrun rate in GA. While better pilot training and discipline is obviously needed to minimize these, I think it would be nice to have an engineering backup for those times when even the best pilots get caught by surprise.
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wabower
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Wayne
Improbable to think that a driver would consider moving the shift lever and/or have sufficient time to do so when the chips are down. I'd be willing to bet you couldn't pry their hands off the wheel with a tire iron.
Still works better with no power to the wheels.
gismo
Touchdown! Greaser!
Please explain how/why. This is contrary to my experience as well as what I know about how modern ABSs works.Still works better with no power to the wheels.
Mike I
Line Up and Wait
Still works better with no power to the wheels.
On modern automatics, the torque converter disengages when the foot is taken off the gas, removing engine power from the drivetrain, no?
JHW
En-Route
on some vehicles. On others the torque converter may lock up and the computer will kill fuel injection to provide some engine braking. Either way, the last thing you should do is try to "help" by moving the shifter or anything else. Just stomp on the brake and let the computer do its job.
gismo
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Some remove the drag of the engine when coasting but none that I know of prevent the engine from applying torque to the drive wheels when the car is stopped or going very slow. When you take your foot off the brake on level ground most any gasoline engine powered car with an automatic transmission will begin to roll and eventually reach a speed of 5-15 mph.
MachFly
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If I loose all electrical power I will lose both engines, the stick limiter, and the gear will automatically drop.
There are plenty of redundant systems to prevent that from happening, the only thing I can think of that will cause a complete electrical failure is an EMP.
If you like I can elaborate on the system specifics.
Loose both engines is only part of the problem. The stick limiter is designed the make the stolls extremely smooth, also the TwinStar virtually does not buffet when approaching a stall so you have no warning (stall horn is electrical as well). The stolls with the stick limiter off are extremely violent, if you are not expecting them it can really screw you up. You don't normally practice stalls with the stick limiter off because for one it's illegal to turn it off, and two you don't have an actual "off switch" (there is a circuit breaker however).
Loss of electrical power will cause the gear to drop, regardless of whether you want it or not. So now the beautiful gliding ability of the Diamond gets reduced to a brick.
Again there are plenty of redundant systems to prevent that from happening.
Quote a lot actually.
Thielert are not allowed to produce engines any more or ports for their engines. For all those people who bought the original TwinStars, Lycoming and Continental now make parts for the original Thielert Centurions (obviously higher quality than the original once).
So the current TwinStars with Thielert engines are supposed to be more reliable, however I still would not fly one. It uses a freaken clutch for dampening!
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Geico266
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I taught all my kids to drive like that. Driver's Ed taught me 45 years ago.
Pretty easy and fast to do with a console shifter. My truck has a "slap" shifter to down shift or up shift by barely moving the gear selector left or right. It is instinct for me to slip it into neutral in sliding / icy stop.
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Geico266
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Place vehicle on level ground. Start engine. Place vehicle in drive. Forward speed will reach 3-5 MPH. If not, there is something wrong with your TC.
gkainz
Final Approach
re: Torque converter freewheeling ... some do disengage the TC with the throttle off. I had to install a TC lockup switch on my Dodge Cummins when I installed the exhaust brake in order to keep the TC locked up with foot off the throttle.
Geico266
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There is a difference between the TC lock up, and the TC being disengaged. The lock up keeps the TC from slipping at all. This is needed for cruise fuel efficiency, and keeping the temps down in the tranny. In your case you want the TC locked up to help with engine braking.
I don't believe there is a vehicle that disengages the TC fully. It is connected to the crankshaft. How could they disconnect it? Putting it in neutral or park dumps the fluid pressure, but it is still engaged and turning making pressure ( converting torque)
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wabower
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Wayne
For accurate results, wait until engine is warm and normal idle speed is achieved. Otherwise, my Yukon will motor along about 40.
Geico266
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Bob Gardner
Stock airplane singles with feathering props? No STCs allowed in this discussion.
Bob
Geico266
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No STC's needed on experimentals.
Yes, the props I mentioned are stock sport pilot aircraft from Europe
gkainz
Final Approach
Yep, brain fart ... thanks for the clarification.
How?!!
denverpilot
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I taught all my kids to drive like that. Driver's Ed taught me 45 years ago.
Pretty easy and fast to do with a console shifter. My truck has a "slap" shifter to down shift or up shift by barely moving the gear selector left or right. It is instinct for me to slip it into neutral in sliding / icy stop.
Mine is on the tree and there's no gate between Drive and Neutral for the same reason. You just push up on it and it'll drop into Neutral. I do it when sliding out of habit also.
No problem with panic here, been sliding vehicles on ice on purpose and by accident my whole life. Sometimes just 'cause I couldn't afford to replace bald tires.
Pickup trucks are particularly noticeable in this regard before you remember to put the winter sandbags in the bed. Heh. Neutral or you're going sideways.
denverpilot
Tied Down
Yours too, huh? I have to ride the brake backing out of the driveway in the morning lest I go shooting out into the street and run down some poor jogger or their dog.
timwinters
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wabower
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Wayne
I think the sound of the revved-up engine provides a heads-up to the exercise freaks in my hood.
Yours too, huh? I have to ride the brake backing out of the driveway in the morning lest I go shooting out into the street and run down some poor jogger or their dog.
brcase
En-Route
Practice.
Hints are...
learn how to use the flaps, rather than just how to put them down.
learn how to fly/adjust the pattern as needed rather than just turn at the old barn.
learn some energy management, you may need to approach a bit faster to have the energy to flare
flown correctly your touch down point should be in a similar location as your normal power on landings and roll out will be only slightly longer.
I have flown nearly 100 different single engine and glider aircraft Types and the Cherokee 6 was the only one I didn't feel could be landed normally power off. It could still be landed power off, but it was more of an emergency procedure due to how fast it descended, even with no flaps. There are a few that are just nicer to land with a bit of power, but don't really require it, i.e. U-206, PA28-RT.
Or if you prefer to just learn the minimum, fly every pattern like it was a short or soft field approach, using maximum flaps and adjust the approach angle with power only.
Brian
CFIIG/ASEL
timwinters
Ejection Handle Pulled
And learn how to do full deflection, full flap slips to about 10' AGL when necessary.
(if your POH allows)
Not only a great tool, but fun.
(if your POH allows)
Not only a great tool, but fun.
denverpilot
Tied Down
I've usually really screwed up the distance to runway and altitude when I need that. Or... I have a burning desire to make a VERY steep approach for some reason.
But it is a good trick to have in the play book.
geneseib
Line Up and Wait
An airplane can be powered either by an engine or gravity. Flies the same but not as long with gravity
No, an airplane is powered by gravity...the engine simply allows it to maintain altitude or climb. And gravity is MUCH stronger than a feeble Lycoming or Continental.
MachFly
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And gravity is MUCH stronger than a feeble Lycoming or Continental.
Not really...depends on the power to weight ratio
Not really...depends on the power to weight ratio
OK...gravity is still stronger than Sean Tucker's 400 hp Lycoming on his little bipe....just not MUCH stronger.
MachFly
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OK...gravity is still stronger than Sean Tucker's 400 hp Lycoming on his little bipe....just not MUCH stronger.
I was actually referring to helicopters, but I'm fairly certain I've seen Sean Tucker in his Challenger III climb vertically after hovering on the prop.