Landing Delta under a Bravo

[ScottK]

I've been using my x-c building time to see local airports I didn't see during training. I'm planning to do a short VFR x-c from KLBE to KBVI.

http://skyvector.com/?ll=40.5450088...097&chart=301&zoom=2&plan=A.K6.KLBE:A.K6.KBVI

As you can see, BVI is a Class D under Pittsburgh bravo. Now I've flown under the bravo and transitioned through it just fine, but haven't done this. Assuming I get the ok to transition the bravo at 4500', what can I expect to hear as I approach BVI?

Will they just hand me off to the tower 10 or so miles out? Will they ask to me to descend below the 4000' bravo and have me squawk 1200?

 

[wsuffa]

Never flown into BVI, but I'm based at HEF (which is under the IAD Bravo).

Before the SFRA came into being, one could fly under the Class B and just talk to the tower. These days, the SFRA requires you to squawk and talk, so Potomac Approach does give you a hand-off to tower and vice-versa. Some local procedures want you to talk to the Class B approach controllers, others don't (for VFR traffic). Some will clear you into the Bravo, others won't. IFR you get a handoff. I've been into a couple where the ATIS will specify that you must contact approach first for sequencing.

 

[flyingmoose]

Most likely they will just tell you to contact tower when you are close. So just call up Pittsburg, get your clearance into the B after you tell them where you are going and then just do what they want you too. No sweat

 

[colojo]

Most likely they will just tell you to contact tower when you are close. So just call up Pittsburg, get your clearance into the B after you tell them where you are going and then just do what they want you too. No sweat

+1. What he said.

 

[ebykowsky]

Just tell them you have airport in sight 10 miles out and they'll hand you right over. I did 90% of my training at AGC without saying a word to Pittsburgh approach. From what I can tell though, they're not too busy and will look out for ya. We got Bravo clearance the other day without asking.

 

[SCCutler]

I would suggest that you contact the FBO at the field, to find out what local practice is.

My aircraft is based at Addison, Texas (KADS), and it also is a class D airport underneath the shelf of class B airspace. At Addison, we are required (and directed in the ATIS message) to contact Regional Approach, the approach control facility responsible for the DFW airspace, for sequencing into Addison. If you contact Addison Tower first, they will send you back to Regional Approach.

I routinely approach from the south, meaning that my destination is on the far side of the B airspace. My experience has been that, assuming workload is not outrageous (bad weather events, etc.), I will get a class B clearance, and be allowed to transition the airspace in a reasonably direct manner. The controllers do, of course, have discretion to simply vector you around the airspace, or to decline to provide you a Bravo clearance of all, in which event you are on your own. I believe their decision to allow you to do this is based heavily upon their impression of how well you will be able to conform to their instructions and behave in a professional way on the radio. If you are crisp and efficient, in my experience, they'll help you out quite a bit; when flying in from the west, for example, I routinely am given a routing directly over the center of DFW airport, at 3500 feet, which for me saves 15 or 20 minutes worth of flying. It's a very good thing.

Again, local custom is what you need to find out about, and talking to a pilot or instructor familiar with the area should be invaluable.

 

[weilke]

Just make sure you get the ATIS for your destination, not for the class-B main airport.

 

[LDJones]

Why even bother with going into the Bravo? Just pop over staying below the Bravo (you're under the 4,000' shelf all the way), then call BVI tower 10-12 miles out.

 

[AggieMike88]

Simplest is to be on Flight Following right after you take off.

As you arrive at the Bravo space, you'll be talking to the approach controller. Depending on your where you are, you're heading, and what's going on at the big airport, you will get one of these two clearances:

"Maintain XX00 feet, cleared into the Bravo airspace" - this can come even if you're not in the airspace yet, or the assigned altitude won't put you into the Bravo space until well inside of the upside down wedding cake. The clearance might also include a "route" such as I got when south of Fort Worth, "Skylane Five-Whiskey-Bravo, descend & maintain 3500. Fly direct Meacham, direct Alliance, direct Denton. Cleared into the Bravo."

Or you might get

"Descend to XX00, remain clear of the Bravo airspace. Maintain VFR." -- This means that they want you to descend to an altitude that will keep you below the Bravo shelves, not be high enough to penetrate any of the Bravo space, and keep your VFR visibility and separations.

Once you are closer to your destination airport, the good approach controllers will notice that and direct you to contact the tower. Before KDTO got it's approach radar feed, I was always given "Radar Services Terminated, Squawk VFR". Now that KDTO has radar, we stay on the same beacon code all the way to landing.

If you're getting inside of 10 nm and the controller hasn't handed you to the tower, then a quick call up of "Approach, Bugmasher 123 is X miles from BVI and has the airport in sight" is enough of a poke to get the controller to approve the frequency change.

 

[ScottK]

Why even bother with going into the Bravo? Just pop over staying below the Bravo (you're under the 4,000' shelf all the way), then call BVI tower 10-12 miles out.

Mostly for the practice. I've typically stayed under the bravo for just about all flying that direction, but my instructor told me to use it when possible in preparation for my instrument training. I'm trying to improve my comm work as much as I can now so that I'll be more prepared to handle the IFR work later.

 

[ScottK]

If you're getting inside of 10 nm and the controller hasn't handed you to the tower, then a quick call up of "Approach, Bugmasher 123 is X miles from BVI and has the airport in sight" is enough of a poke to get the controller to approve the frequency change.

I did this the last time I went through. Contoller sounded like "oh yeah, you're still out there...".

 

[thezoolityre]

Scott! How awesome! I am an instructor at KBVI so this is right up my alley!
Anywho, so long as you have a mode C transponder (because although Beaver is D, you are still in that Veil) and you get clearance through the bravo you are fine. Pitt isn't very busy, yet they always sound overwhelmed when you are on the radio with them.

I have flown to and from KLBE many times, normally, if I have a cruising altitude that's going to bust the Bravo, I just make sure I get clearance before entering (you should get it right away anyway), as you approach KBVI and you need to descend, just advise that you are descending, and normally to cover their butts they will just say "YA, ahhh VFR descent at your discretion report KBVI in sight"

Once you report it in sight and if you are within 20-15 miles from it, they will hand you over to 120.3, which it might be hard to spot because there are some hills obstructing it along the way, just remember that KBVI is 3 miles directly west of the beaver river, which breaks off from the Ohio river about 10-15 miles North of the city (after the Ohio doglegs to the left).

Are going there today? Would be great to meet a fellow PoAer!

hopes this helps!

 

[ScottK]

Scott! How awesome! I am an instructor at KBVI so this is right up my alley!
Anywho, so long as you have a mode C transponder (because although Beaver is D, you are still in that Veil) and you get clearance through the bravo you are fine. Pitt isn't very busy, yet they always sound overwhelmed when you are on the radio with them.

I have flown to and from KLBE many times, normally, if I have a cruising altitude that's going to bust the Bravo, I just make sure I get clearance before entering (you should get it right away anyway), as you approach KBVI and you need to descend, just advise that you are descending, and normally to cover their butts they will just say "YA, ahhh VFR descent at your discretion report KBVI in sight"

Once you report it in sight and if you are within 20-15 miles from it, they will hand you over to 120.3, which it might be hard to spot because there are some hills obstructing it along the way, just remember that KBVI is 3 miles directly west of the beaver river, which breaks off from the Ohio river about 10-15 miles North of the city (after the Ohio doglegs to the left).

Are going there today? Would be great to meet a fellow PoAer!

hopes this helps!

Actually, I have the plane from 4-8 on Friday. I'm hoping that family plans don't make me cancel.
Also, what is the noise abatement procedure mentioned? I saw something on AOPA about flying runway heading until at least 1800'. I was going to call the manager about it, but haven't yet.

Do you teach out of Moore Aviation?

 

[thezoolityre]

Actually, I have the plane from 4-8 on Friday. I'm hoping that family plans don't make me cancel.
Also, what is the noise abatement procedure mentioned? I saw something on AOPA about flying runway heading until at least 1800'. I was going to call the manager about it, but haven't yet.

Do you teach out of Moore Aviation?

I never care about noise abatement, those are for the few jets that come in, turn out at your typical 500' agl and flick the jerks on the Blackhawk golf course off for me while you do it. Who builds a golf course right next to an airport and then complains about airplane noise??!!! So frustrating...

Anyway, Yes, I just started yesterday but have been flying at KBVI for 3 years now, so I am a noobie to the CFI realm but not KBVI

 

[tsowes]

I've actually gone to both KLBE and KBVI as night x-c's. Both times, I've been handed off from pittsburgh approach directly to the tower. I'm pretty sure that I kept the squawk that PIT gave me and never squawked VFR. Should be a pretty easy transition. The PIT controller will do a computer hand off to BVI tower, so they'll already know you're coming in before you even contact them. Hope this helps.

 

[ebykowsky]

I've actually gone to both KLBE and KBVI as night x-c's. Both times, I've been handed off from pittsburgh approach directly to the tower. I'm pretty sure that I kept the squawk that PIT gave me and never squawked VFR. Should be a pretty easy transition. The PIT controller will do a computer hand off to BVI tower, so they'll already know you're coming in before you even contact them. Hope this helps.

Where do you fly out of?
I had to remind Pittsburgh approach to let me squawk VFR when leaving the airspace to land at a dinky CTAF airport.

 

[ScottK]

I've actually gone to both KLBE and KBVI as night x-c's. Both times, I've been handed off from pittsburgh approach directly to the tower. I'm pretty sure that I kept the squawk that PIT gave me and never squawked VFR. Should be a pretty easy transition. The PIT controller will do a computer hand off to BVI tower, so they'll already know you're coming in before you even contact them. Hope this helps.

I see Kent in your bio...Are you flying out of Kent State? I had friends in the aviation program when I was there a million years ago.

 

[LDJones]

Mostly for the practice. I've typically stayed under the bravo for just about all flying that direction, but my instructor told me to use it when possible in preparation for my instrument training. I'm trying to improve my comm work as much as I can now so that I'll be more prepared to handle the IFR work later.

You can still get the communications practice by talking to them without requiring them to work you into their Bravo airspace...and they'll probably like you for it.

 

[ebykowsky]

You can still get the communications practice by talking to them without requiring them to work you into their Bravo airspace...and they'll probably like you for it.

Bet you a gallon of 100LL he gets cleared through Bravo without asking.

 

[NWADC9]

Assuming I get the ok to transition the bravo at 4500', what can I expect to hear as I approach BVI?

"Will they just hand me off to the tower 10 or so miles out? Will they ask to me to descend below the 4000' bravo and have me squawk 1200?

Assuming you're getting flight following, you will advise them when you have the field in sight (look for the Ohio-Beaver River intersection, and BVI is up the highway from there), and when you're out of the Bravo they'll hand you over. You will keep the squawk code unless you're going to do some pattern work at BVI, in which case they'll have you switch to 1200.

Also, what is the noise abatement procedure mentioned? I saw something on AOPA about flying runway heading until at least 1800'. I was going to call the manager about it, but haven't yet.

It's basically 500' AGL before turning (1253+500=1753).

 

[ebykowsky]

Wow I love all the new POAers from the Pgh area popping up here! Welcome!

 

[LDJones]

Bet you a gallon of 100LL he gets cleared through Bravo without asking.

I'm not familiar with that Bravo so couldn't say, but I'll bet you ten gallons it wouldn't happen at KMSP! They keep GA IFR traffic below the Bravo.

 

[ebykowsky]

I assume it's even harder to get VFR through the MSP Bravo then? ^^ I have very limited experience with the Pittsburgh class Bravo, but every time I've asked for FF, they've cleared me straight through. Workload is not very high there. Only time I flew near the CLT Bravo they told me to stay clear though.

 

[Clark1961]

I'm not familiar with that Bravo so couldn't say, but I'll bet you ten gallons it wouldn't happen at KMSP! They keep GA IFR traffic below the Bravo.

??? I've been cleared through the MSP Bravo four times without asking in six trips through the area. Twice VFR and twice IFR. One of the VFR trips was a VAC flight and MSP was *very* accommodating so maybe we shouldn't count that one. Anyway, they've been helpful to me.

 

[LDJones]

I assume it's even harder to get VFR through the MSP Bravo then? ^^ I have very limited experience with the Pittsburgh class Bravo, but every time I've asked for FF, they've cleared me straight through. Workload is not very high there. Only time I flew near the CLT Bravo they told me to stay clear though.

Try Chicago sometime. Even if you're IFR they route you 20-30 miles AWAY from their Bravo.

 

[LDJones]

??? I've been cleared through the MSP Bravo four times without asking in six trips through the area. Twice VFR and twice IFR. One of the VFR trips was a VAC flight and MSP was *very* accommodating so maybe we shouldn't count that one. Anyway, they've been helpful to me.

Glad to know they treat guests better than those of us based here! I can't tell you how many bumpy rides I've "enjoyed" while they held me below 4,000' headed northwest bound until I was clear of Bravo and that's on IFR flight plans.

To their credit, if you're based on the west side and you're headed east they will occasionally allow a VFR transition.

 

[ScottK]

After worrying about family plans holding up the flight, it wound up being a flat tire. Another club member took it out before I was scheduled and the airplane is still at the other airport. Apparently, they can't get a tire for it until Monday.

Oh well...the lessons in patience just keep coming.

 

[ebykowsky]

After worrying about family plans holding up the flight, it wound up being a flat tire. Another club member took it out before I was scheduled and the airplane is still at the other airport. Apparently, they can't get a tire for it until Monday.

Oh well...the lessons in patience just keep coming.

You should have joined a club with 6 airplanes

 

[bluerooster]

Why even bother with going into the Bravo? Just pop over staying below the Bravo (you're under the 4,000' shelf all the way), then call BVI tower 10-12 miles out.

What he said. ^