Landing a freakin' 172?

[etsisk]

[I first posted this on the red board, but realized that there are a lot of folks here, with much wisdom!, that don't read the red board (imagine that!) and I decided to repost in the hopes of getting input from y'all, too!] [hope that's ok?]

I dunno, but I expect it doesn't involve bouncing around like a flippin' hackey-sack . . .
That's what I get for waiting a whole week between lessons, I reckon. Sigh.
Well, maybe Friday will be better!

Hmm, perhaps for clarity's sake (and to announce a furthering of my jargon abilities) I should say "ballooning", perhaps? We never touched the runway in our yo-yo'ing adventures.

An Update:
I couldn't wait 'til Friday - I don't like having something hang over me like that, so I went back this afternoon and we went up again for half an hour, staying in the pattern and landing a couple of times (um, we took off, too)(also twice)

. The first one went pretty well. The second one was a bit stupid, again - I'm kind of yanking it back and up we go again. But we got it back down

and landed just fine.

Good things to take from this afternoon:
1. Though I had been a bit behind the aircraft this morning, I was able to be more proactive and stay ahead of it this afternoon;
2. I was able to use gentle inputs and keep things coordinated in the pattern;
3. I'm doing pretty good approaches - he likes my approaches!
4. Even if I screw up, there's still a lot of runway to land on!
5. I can taxi with the best of 'em! (well, I can taxi pretty good, anyway!)

On Friday, if he thinks this is a good idea, I'm going to work on using much lighter control inputs while landing (he will have to be ready to help if I'm too light on it!). I think that I'd be better able to successfully INCREASE yoke inputs to the right point than trying to ease them off. Dunno. It's all an experiment!

I'm happy to entertain suggestions!!

 

[Michael]

my suggestion, and I am not a CFI.
Try to keep it parallel with the runway for as long as possible, that is, get it down to 4 or 5 feet above the surface, then, just fly the runway. sooner or later the plane will start falling towards the runway, even though you are flying parallel to it. it will "sink" The sink in the pants feeling takes some getting used to, in order to identify it, but your periphial vision should catch the sink. as it sinks, add back preassure, if its sinking slow, pull the yoke back slow, if its sinking fast, pull back a little harder.

I know this is what we are all taught..i think..But i found my biggest problem with ballooning came when i wasnt patient enough to let the plane start sinking.

Good Luck. you will get it.

 

[RotaryWingBob]

Tom, there's no big secret to this stuff. Be patient, work with your CFI, and it will all come to you.

I imagine that everyone on this board had frustrating times during their primary training. I certainly did in both fixed- and rotary-wing aircraft. Try not to let it get to you.

It's important too, that you share your frustration with your instructor -- he or she is the only one (besides yourself, of course) who can help you through this.

I would also be very surprised if there were very many members of this board who could make anything approaching a decent landing at 7.3 hours!

So keep at it and it will all come out fine

Oh yeah... keep us posted on your progress!

 

[etsisk]

I would also be very surprised if there were very many members of this board who could make anything approaching a decent landing at 7.3 hours!

Oh, I can APPROACH a decent landing really well! (He likes my approaches!!). And last week I was doing pretty good landings, so this surprised me. It has been suggested that perhaps I'm waiting too long to start the round out, so I end up rounding out more agressively. That might well be part of the problem. It seems to fit, though, so I'll check it out!

Hope I get it figured out, or my landings will look like this! ->

 

[MSmith]

Oh, I can APPROACH a decent landing really well! (He likes my approaches!!). And last week I was doing pretty good landings, so this surprised me. It has been suggested that perhaps I'm waiting too long to start the round out, so I end up rounding out more agressively. That might well be part of the problem. It seems to fit, though, so I'll check it out!

Hope I get it figured out, or my landings will look like this! ->

I had that problem. Kept scaring my instructor.

I ended up moving the point down the runway that I looked at.

Everybody starts by looking at the ground right in front of the plane - that's not enough distance to get a good view of the sink in peripheral vision.

I tried looking at the end of the runway - no good.

I finally settled on about the distance down the runway that I would look when driving a car. That helped a lot.

One day it'll go click inside your head - usually so loud that your instructor hears it.

Keep it up. I didn't get decent landings until at least 20 hours.

 

[Greebo]

I suppose the obvious "wings at a higher altitude than the wheels" response wouldn't be much help would it?

(But it makes me chuckle...)

 

[Missa]

I didn't learn this till my second CFI, once you are on the runway heading, look out the side window of the plane. The sink is a lot more obvious that way.

Missa

 

[jesse]

I have always looked out my left side / left of nose (peripheral vision) to judge the flare. . I'm not sure why. It just seemed like the natural thing for me to do. I have never tried looking at the end of the runway for anything like that...For me looking out the left is the way to go.


Let me tell you though, I am glad I did that from day one. It really made my tailwheel transition painless.

 

[etsisk]

I suppose the obvious "wings at a higher altitude than the wheels" response wouldn't be much help would it?

(But it makes me chuckle...)

Yeah, Ha. Ha. Ha. . . .

 

[jesse]

Perhaps this video might help you . Maybe it won't....
Either way it's me landing a C-172N @ Runway 20 KRST

http://www.jesseangell.com/video/rst20short.wmv

 

[spiderweb]

I have about 300 hours in the C172. If you are interested, here is what I do from downwind to landing. First of all, though, make sure you get a clear mental snapshot of the landing attitude by letting your CFI do the first one:

Downwind: 2100. Trim for resultant airspeed. (You probably won't have to trim again much, if you do the rest of what I do.) Prelanding checklist

Abeam numbers: 1900 and flaps 10

Base: 1500 and flaps 20; maintain 70 KIAS and 500 fpm

Final: power off or just a bit in; flaps full--all to maintain 60 KIAS and aim for the numbers with about a 500 fpm descent rate. MAKE THE SIGHT PICTURE LOOK RIGHT while maintaining 60 KIAS, by adding tiny bits of power, as needed. At this stage in your piloting life, if you find that you need lots of power changes on final, GO AROUND.

Begin transition from descent at about 20 feet to level flight smoothly--neither quickly or slowly. The key point is that you want to do it with coordination, so that finally you are level (not nose high) a few feet above ground. Now, gradually and smoothly reduce power to idle if you had any, while simultaneously pulling very slightly back on the nose to raise it to the sight picture you remember from takeoff. I can't emphasize enough that you must take your time waiting for butt sink and move smoothly (don't forget to kickout any crab). After the first couple of degrees nose up, I count a slow "one," pull another couple of degrees, count a slow "two," and then pull maybe one degree and hold it. Again, wait for the sink between each number, or you will balloon and come down hard. If you wait too long, you will land flat.

Dork that I am, I used to practice this at home by walking down the hall, and running through the motions, announcing what I was supposed to be doing and feeling at each stage. It helped me.

http://www.jesseangell.com/video/rst20short.wmv

This was pretty good, I thought. Note, though, etsisk that this is a short field landing and the requirements are a bit different here. Jesse, minor point--I don't think you needed that last spurt of power before going completely power off. Otherwise, what a great job!

 

[jesse]

This was pretty good, I thought. Note, though, etsisk that this is a short field landing and the requirements are a bit different here. Jesse, minor point--I don't think you needed that last spurt of power before going completely power off. Otherwise, what a great job!

Yeah. It's not the best. That was several months ago.

It's been so long since I recorded that, but all I really remember is it was rather gusty. I think the power adjustment was a correction for wind, but may not have been needed. I only had about 15 hours..tops in a 172 at that point. I generally keep my glide slope pretty high for my landing target followed by cutting the power and slipping if needed. I want to always be in a position if my engine were to fail to make the runway.

I can now 95% of the time be stalled out and touching down on the stripes before the numbers. For me every flight is going to involve something that is a challenge. I'm not saying fly dangerous. I'm just saying I like to keep increasing my skills.

Someone once told me: "You can start a job and be trained how to do it in 10 minutes. You can work there for 20 years. How much experiance do you have? 10 minutes". This is why I continue to challenge myself in aviation.

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

I have always looked out my left side / left of nose (peripheral vision) to judge the flare. . I'm not sure why. It just seemed like the natural thing for me to do. I have never tried looking at the end of the runway for anything like that...For me looking out the left is the way to go.


Let me tell you though, I am glad I did that from day one. It really made my tailwheel transition painless.

Good point to emphasize and that's why the airspeed indicator is usually right next to the little piece of pilot's side window to minize peripheral vision effort.

 

[jrdodge]

I think Ben is right on. Keep everything around the pattern consistent. Airspeed is king!! I can't emphasize this enough. The balooning is stemming from your excess airspeed when crossing the numbers. When on short final scan between the two ends of the runway. As you get closer to the threshold, focus more on the far end of the runway for it to level off with the ground. This is your visual cue for adding back pressure for the flare. Hope this helps. And please be patient with yourself, it will come.

 

[Henning]

[I first posted this on the red board, but realized that there are a lot of folks here, with much wisdom!, that don't read the red board (imagine that!) and I decided to repost in the hopes of getting input from y'all, too!] [hope that's ok?]

I dunno, but I expect it doesn't involve bouncing around like a flippin' hackey-sack . . .
That's what I get for waiting a whole week between lessons, I reckon. Sigh.
Well, maybe Friday will be better!

Hmm, perhaps for clarity's sake (and to announce a furthering of my jargon abilities) I should say "ballooning", perhaps? We never touched the runway in our yo-yo'ing adventures.

An Update:
I couldn't wait 'til Friday - I don't like having something hang over me like that, so I went back this afternoon and we went up again for half an hour, staying in the pattern and landing a couple of times (um, we took off, too)(also twice)

. The first one went pretty well. The second one was a bit stupid, again - I'm kind of yanking it back and up we go again. But we got it back down

and landed just fine.

Good things to take from this afternoon:
1. Though I had been a bit behind the aircraft this morning, I was able to be more proactive and stay ahead of it this afternoon;
2. I was able to use gentle inputs and keep things coordinated in the pattern;
3. I'm doing pretty good approaches - he likes my approaches!
4. Even if I screw up, there's still a lot of runway to land on!
5. I can taxi with the best of 'em! (well, I can taxi pretty good, anyway!)

On Friday, if he thinks this is a good idea, I'm going to work on using much lighter control inputs while landing (he will have to be ready to help if I'm too light on it!). I think that I'd be better able to successfully INCREASE yoke inputs to the right point than trying to ease them off. Dunno. It's all an experiment!

I'm happy to entertain suggestions!!

To add to what I said on the red, Round out and flare are 2 different phases of landing, now the distance you spend between roundout and flare is the excess energy you are carrying. Remember that the speeds you are using on final are calibrated for max gross landing weight. You are hardly ever flying in that condition, so your stall (and in effect your approach speed of 1.2- 1.3 * Vso) are lower. Keep trying slightly slower speeds until you can make round out to flare one long smooth pull that lasts about 3-6 seconds (depending on field length). Go up with your instructor, and do a power off stall and see where it indicates, and then adjust your approach speed accordingly (That 1.2 - 1.3 factor). You'll still have a buffer because of ground effect, but if you use the 1.2 # for the short field, you'll probably only need to tweek that a couple 3 knots for best approach speed. Remember though using that number wont work with a heavier load. The best system I use is on take off, (I do every takeoff in a single engine plane as a Short&Soft field take off, multi is another issue we won't delve into here and assume all proceedures for single engine or mid line ops) is to note the exact speed the plane flies off at. Hopefully this is the heaviest the plane is ever going to be on this flight, and it is a speed greater than which the plane will land at, so I can use that number and adjust it for the fuel burn weight loss and get a reasonable number to use to start my approach, once I stabilize on this number at a comfortable approach angle, I never look at the Airspeed again, instead I note the noise of the aircraft, you can tell a change of just a couple of knots by the sound. I will hold the angle and adjust the slope with SMALL AMOUNTS of power change, sometimes 25 rpm more is all you need. I judge the approach by the perspective lines formed by the runway. They should appear stable, the angles not changing, just getting closer, things getting larger. Continuous Bearing, Deminishing Range, which in a coincidence is the key for determing risk of collission with intersecting traffic. The Position of what you are going to hit stays in the same place in your windshield and keeps getting bigger. If you are learning at an airport with in ILS, aim at one of the markers, and see how far away you end up after you round out and flair, that'll tell you where you need to aim ahead of the threshold on final.

 

[etsisk]

Thanks, Doug and EVERYone - y'all are just great, and this is why I posted this again here. Depending on the rain and the run-off and the grass strip, I might be flying again tomorrow afternoon. I'll check all of this stuff again at lunch and make notes to take with me to discuss with the CFI.

Yeah, Doug - I KNOW that unchanging relative bearing and diminishing range are the things you see before crashing into something!! THAT might be part of the PROBLEM!!

 

[Henning]

Thanks, Doug and EVERYone - y'all are just great, and this is why I posted this again here. Depending on the rain and the run-off and the grass strip, I might be flying again tomorrow afternoon. I'll check all of this stuff again at lunch and make notes to take with me to discuss with the CFI.

Yeah, Doug - I KNOW that unchanging relative bearing and diminishing range are the things you see before crashing into something!! THAT might be part of the PROBLEM!!

Just like any other thing you crash into, be in control of it. BTW, I'm not Doug

 

[etsisk]

Just like any other thing you crash into, be in control of it. BTW, I'm not Doug

um, er, I knew that . . . just checking to see if you were paying attention.

I mean, such good advice is, well, magical, right?

What was the first thing to go? I can never remember . . .

 

[flyingcheesehead]

I'm happy to entertain suggestions!!

Tom,

It kind of sounds like you're having the same problem I was at about the same number of hours. The root of my problem was that I wasn't detecting the sink right away when it started, so the sink rate when I noticed it was fairly high and I had to yank to keep from thumping the plane down.

I finally decided to just round out, wait about 2-3 seconds, and just start gently pulling back. After all, you KNOW that if you're level with power at idle, you'll be slowing and then sinking. I was able to land well enough using this "timing" method rather than the "sinking" method that I was able to learn how to see and feel the sink. By the time I had my PP-ASEL I no longer needed to use the timing method.

 

[etsisk]

Here's an update - after three weeks of not flying due to illness (what a lovely holiday... grrrr), I was back in the saddle again this morning - great lesson!! I was more relaxed and had a pretty good day doing x-wind landings! I only ballooned once, put the nose lower, let it slow down and flared again. I started my roundout earlier, easy on the controls (pressure not movement, so much), watched speed (to the degree I can multi-task in that situation), etc. Pretty much used everything everyone suggested - THANKS!! Landings? No problem, mon! Well, at least not TODAY . . .

Today I actually flew with a different instructor and that was informative and interesting - it's good to do, I think - I got to hear a different explanation of a number of things, said the same stuff but in a different way. It was helpful. I'll likely fly with both of them, given the intensive manner in which I hope to do this (hey, I'm 53 - ain't got a lot of time for lollygagging around!). This way, if one is busy, the other is available.

We did x-wind landings - both crabbed and slipped. Using flaps and throttle to make altitude corrections. A 180 degree glide to landing. Dutch rolls (a little bit - didn't have my handy-dandy airsickness miracle watch thingy with me, so I wasn't much in the mood to have a lot of demonstration of that, ifyouknowhatImean...)

A good lesson. I've got another one tomorrow, followed by glider lessons on Saturday (woohoo! it's been a while!), and a x-c flight with a friend to the mountains and back on Sunday. Then we'll start back up with lessons on Monday... whole lotta flying going on! If I don't get my dang license, it won't be due to a lack of trying!

 

[HPNFlyGirl]

Tom,

Did you get caught up in all that mess with the hotel fire this morning? I bet it still smelled really bad.

 

[etsisk]

Tom,

Did you get caught up in all that mess with the hotel fire this morning? I bet it still smelled really bad.

Nope - It didn't hold me up at all, was pretty much out by the time I got there (still smoking, though) and the winds were kind . . .