Landing a 182

[sbonek]

it's supposed to be easier than a 172... agree?

I've finally gotten some better consistency with landings in the 172's... my biggest issue was flaring too high... unfortunately I don't get to fly the 182 as much as I'd like (because of the cost, and only cost, since it's very rarely scheduled when I want to fly).

I remember my instructor telling me that if you try to land a 182 without using a lot of trim, your left arm is going to be sore. Basically when I chop the power after the runway is made, the thing just drops like a rock. One thing I tried the last time I flew the 182 was to bring the power out a little more gradually, rather than just going directly to idle.

Any other tips any 182'ers might have for this situation?

 

[CJones]

Unless you're doing an extreme short-field or landing over an obstacle, I wouldn't vote for "chop and drop" approach in the 182. It has a little more weight hanging on the front end. I only have a few hours in the 182, but haven't really had any problems with landings that I know of.

Trim for a steady stabilized approach and fly it down to the runway. I've been trained to land with full flaps (did my high performance checkout in a 182 on a short grass strip). I basically set up for a stabilized 80kts on final. Once I have the runway within glide distance, I put in full flaps and hold ~75-80kts down to flare. With those big 'ol flaps hanging out, one you pull power and flare, it'll settle right down and bleed off all that excess speed easily.

Like I said, I don't have much time in a 182, but this seems to work for me so far. Trim is definitely a key component for a good approach in any airplane - especially 182's.

But ain't it a great flyin airplane!?

 

[poadeleted20]

it's supposed to be easier than a 172... agree?

I'd rate them equally easy to land well, as long as you use proper technique.

I remember my instructor telling me that if you try to land a 182 without using a lot of trim, your left arm is going to be sore.

Keep listening to that instructor.

Basically when I chop the power after the runway is made, the thing just drops like a rock. One thing I tried the last time I flew the 182 was to bring the power out a little more gradually, rather than just going directly to idle.

"Learning is a change in behavior as a result of experience." - FAA Aviation Instructor's Handbook.

Any other tips any 182'ers might have for this situation?

Fly at the right speed (1.3 Vs0, adjusted for actual landing weight), trim for that speed, control glide path with power and speed with pitch/trim, and be smooth with both power and pitch.

 

[tonycondon]

182 particularly shows if you do landings using sound fundamentals or if you just fly it on. keep that nose up there.

chris - did you retrieve the infamous 182 from Mtown?

 

[KennyFlys]

I flew a 182RG through my commercial training. I found it to be pretty picky when you didn't keep a tad power right up to flair along with the right speed and properly trimmed. I've never landed a 182 straight leg but I suspect, as said, it's no different than a 172. I definitely felt that extra third of a ton in the Skylane.

The place where I found it most critical was on short and soft field landings where speed was right down there at 63 KIAS. If I got just a touch below that, it turned from a gliding airplane in descent to a refridgerator. I would suggest working on some slow flight skills at altitude to include approach to landing configuration and steep turns. Add some stall practice. That will go a long way toward helping to know what to expect during landing. Follow with some power-off 180s.

I'm not a CFI but those are part of what I'd do when adapting to a heavier aircraft; manuevers approved for a given aircraft, of course.

 

[CJones]

chris - did you retrieve the infamous 182 from Mtown?

Ugh.. No! We got so stinkin busy that I never got a chance to partake in the big event. Oh well.. I still want to get checked out in the R182.

 

[deafsound]

Fly at the right speed (

There are far too many people who don't do this. Does everyone read the IM of the airplane they are flying? I've almost been killed by people who don't fly the right speed.

 

[CJones]

There are far too many people who don't do this. Does everyone read the IM of the airplane they are flying? I've almost been killed by people who don't fly the right speed.

Ha! Ever flown to OSH for Airventure? You could write a book about people that can't fly correct speeds. "... red and white cessna land on the green dot......... ok.. how about the white dot?............ ok red and white cessna just put it down before you get to the highway and exit onto the grass.."

 

[sbonek]

..snip..

Like I said, I don't have much time in a 182, but this seems to work for me so far. Trim is definitely a key component for a good approach in any airplane - especially 182's.

But ain't it a great flyin airplane!?

I'm thinking I may need to trim a little more on base and final, and then again on short final. Maybe that combined with easing out the throttle will make it a little smoother.

Yes, yes it is... like I said, the only reason I don't fly it everytime is because of the $30/hr difference between it and the 172's with the G1000. Hmm... they do have a 2005 with G1000 for sale (http://www.aso.com/aircraft/108104/) ... only $270k

 

[sbonek]

..snip...

Keep listening to that instructor.

"Learning is a change in behavior as a result of experience." - FAA Aviation Instructor's Handbook.

Fly at the right speed (1.3 Vs0, adjusted for actual landing weight), trim for that speed, control glide path with power and speed with pitch/trim, and be smooth with both power and pitch.

I wish I could, but he has moved on to the regionals...

ok, so Vs0 is 41, max gross is 3,100. Assuming I take off with full fuel and take one trip around the pattern, weight is probably around 2650 (2650/3100 = .8548), so I come up with 1.3 * 41 = 53.3 * .8548 = 45

That seems kinda slow... did I mess up the math somewhere?

 

[tdager]

The 182 requires judicious and prudent use of trim...or gorilla arms.

I do carry a smidgen of power through the flare and pull it all out then, my landings have smoothed out a bit more. I have not done this buy my fellow 182 owners say tossing a 50lb weight in the baggage area can do wonders too!

 

[flyersfan31]

If you're not trimmed, a 182 will tell you very quickly. I used to wonder about all the hullaballoo about trim-induced stalls. That is, until I started flying the 182.

Keep that nose up!

 

[SteveW]

ok, so Vs0 is 41, max gross is 3,100. Assuming I take off with full fuel and take one trip around the pattern, weight is probably around 2650 (2650/3100 = .8548), so I come up with 1.3 * 41 = 53.3 * .8548 = 45

That seems kinda slow... did I mess up the math somewhere?

Yeah -- Vref is calculated based on CALBIRATED not INDICATED A/S
Vso=54kt 1.3*54 = 70.2 * .8548 = 60.01`(where IAS~CAS)
except speed varies with the SQRT of the weight, so (2650/3100)^.5 = .9246
Then: 54 * 1.3 = 70.2 * .9246 = 64.9

 

[sbonek]

Yeah -- Vref is calculated based on CALBIRATED not INDICATED A/S
Vso=54kt 1.3*54 = 70.2 * .8548 = 60.01`(where IAS~CAS)
except speed varies with the SQRT of the weight, so (2650/3100)^.5 = .9246
Then: 54 * 1.3 = 70.2 * .9246 = 64.9

weird... I'll have to re-look at my PIM tonight, but I thought it showed Vs0 as being 41, maybe that was a typo.

I forgot about the Square Root deal. Thanks.

 

[Joe Gremlin]

it's supposed to be easier than a 172... agree?

No, it's supposed to be different than a 172 and if you try to land by doing the same thing you do in a 172 you're going to have trouble.

You have found that when you chop the power the nose really drops. That should tell you that you've got two choices. Either don't chop the power or stay a little bit higher/wait a little bit longer in anticipation of the nose dropping when you do the chop the power.

Carrying power into the flare is one method that lots of guys use in order to make a 182 behave more like a 172. Of course if you carry too much power, you're going to use more runway.

I've always been more of a fan of the adjust the glidepath method than I am of the keep power in method. I feel that in the event of an off airport landing, I want things to be as much like a regular landing as possible. To that end, if you find you prefer the carry power all the way into the flare method, I would suggest that you practice a few no power landings every so often so you don't end up expecting the plane to glide farther than it will in the event of an off airport landing.

 

[colomtnflyer]

While flying our C182RG and training students in it, I found that keeping an additional 300 rpm over flight idle really eased the landing. Then as soon as you are on the ground, reduce power to full idle.

As has been stated previously, adherence to appropriate speeds etc is imperative!

 

[jdwatson]

I found the sight picture is different between the 172 & 182. I can land the 206 as smooth as glass, but the 182 I still thunk it down. I don't flare with flair as I should. ;-) Keeping the nose up is a must. Lately, I end up too high on final and never get completely stablised. The secret is stable approaches, which means flying by the numbers. I also found looking "down" the runway rather than getting locked on the touchdown point helps a bunch too.

I like the T182T G1000 we have, but it's got A/C so the W&B is limited with full tanks. Plus one needs to burn off about 1.5hrs of fuel to be below the maximum landing weight. To combat this problem in the training environment, we just don't top off past the tabs. It's on the receiving pilot to call for fuel. The line crew does not automatically fill this bird like the rest of the fleet.

Flying the correct speed is a special challenge transitioning to the G1000. Tape display instead of a dial. The airspeed indicator in analog cessnas are in my peripheral vision so once trimmed I could focus on the sight picture and just adjust with small changes in pitch and power. If one tries to get the exact integer on the tape and hold it there, they are spending too much time *inside* the plane.

Best of luck with the 182, it is a sweetie.

 

[gismo]

Basically when I chop the power after the runway is made, the thing just drops like a rock.
One thing I tried the last time I flew the 182 was to bring the power out a little more gradually, rather than just going directly to idle.

Any other tips any 182'ers might have for this situation?

First, I often hear pilots say their plane "drops like a rock" or "glides like a manhole cover" when they go to idle power but the reality is that you can manage the descent rate by pulling on the wheel (for a while). Carrying power through (vs into) the flare will always extend your landing distance and therefore this is a bad habit to get into unless you will always land on long runways. If you are approaching at the correct speed, you can reduce the vertical speed to zero after pulling the throttle to idle by applying sufficient nose up elevator. Because in a plane like the 182 this also requires significant force on the wheel if you are trimmed for a power on glide you may want to roll in some nose up trim before or during the flare. A lot of 182 pilots covet electric trim for this exact reason. Of course should you add a much nose up trim, you'll have your hands full on a go-around unless you remember to remove it before or as you open the throttle.

 

[TangoWhiskey]

Ha! Ever flown to OSH for Airventure? You could write a book about people that can't fly correct speeds. "... red and white cessna land on the green dot......... ok.. how about the white dot?............ ok red and white cessna just put it down before you get to the highway and exit onto the grass.."

Thanks for the laugh, Chris. That was funny, but also, sadly, true!! Have you ever seen the "scoring landings" video?

 

[sbonek]

..snip..

I like the T182T G1000 we have, but it's got A/C so the W&B is limited with full tanks. Plus one needs to burn off about 1.5hrs of fuel to be below the maximum landing weight. To combat this problem in the training environment, we just don't top off past the tabs. It's on the receiving pilot to call for fuel. The line crew does not automatically fill this bird like the rest of the fleet.

Flying the correct speed is a special challenge transitioning to the G1000. Tape display instead of a dial. The airspeed indicator in analog cessnas are in my peripheral vision so once trimmed I could focus on the sight picture and just adjust with small changes in pitch and power. If one tries to get the exact integer on the tape and hold it there, they are spending too much time *inside* the plane.

Best of luck with the 182, it is a sweetie.

yes, it does seem like you use a decent amount of useful load when you get into the T182's. The one I fly isn't turbo, and it's got more than enough useful load for my typical mission. Which is why when I do get to the point of seriously considering purchasing, a 182 will definately be on my short list.

You raise a good point on the steam gauges vs G1000. As you mentioned with the steam gauges, it is in peripheral vision and you can quickly look at it and know what the dial should look like... with the G1000, you have to read the tape and process what it is telling you.

Thanks, I'm flying it on Sunday and I hope to try some of the things that have been suggested to smooth the landings out.

 

[sbonek]

..snip...

Carrying power through (vs into) the flare will always extend your landing distance and therefore this is a bad habit to get into unless you will always land on long runways. If you are approaching at the correct speed, you can reduce the vertical speed to zero after pulling the throttle to idle by applying sufficient nose up elevator. Because in a plane like the 182 this also requires significant force on the wheel if you are trimmed for a power on glide you may want to roll in some nose up trim before or during the flare. A lot of 182 pilots covet electric trim for this exact reason. Of course should you add a much nose up trim, you'll have your hands full on a go-around unless you remember to remove it before or as you open the throttle.

all good points. I'm thinking I may be coming in too fast, and I'm probably not using enough trim. Those are the first 2 things I'm going to try.

Yes, the electric trim does help when trimming in the flare. I've not been able to quite master it yet, but I will keep working on it.

Thanks.

 

[TangoWhiskey]

You raise a good point on the steam gauges vs G1000. As you mentioned with the steam gauges, it is in peripheral vision and you can quickly look at it and know what the dial should look like... with the G1000, you have to read the tape and process what it is telling you.

One idea on the G1000... you can set one of the airspeed bugs to the speed you want to be trimmed at for final approach. After all, they give you Vr, Vx and Vy... reset one of them for the speed you want to fly on final, turn OFF the others, and that "bug" will be in view in your peripheral scan. Keep it in the middle of the tape and you're on speed. Your eye will catch it moving up or down off the target speed.

 

[sbonek]

One idea on the G1000... you can set one of the airspeed bugs to the speed you want to be trimmed at for final approach. After all, they give you Vr, Vx and Vy... reset one of them for the speed you want to fly on final, turn OFF the others, and that "bug" will be in view in your peripheral scan. Keep it in the middle of the tape and you're on speed. Your eye will catch it moving up or down off the target speed.

good idea... I like it...

 

[Ghery]

I've been flying the club's 182 a fair amount lately while working on my IR. I find I can get the stall horn blaring in a 182 just before the mains touch far more consistently than in a 172. Although I did nail it last week landing at KOA. A little power in the flare does help with the 182, it keeps you in the air in the 172.

 

[Baron 55]

Besides proper airspeed/power management and flaring at the proper height, for some fun and fine-tuning of your landings, get your CFI and practice some spot landings. These are sometimes called accuracy landings. It may take more than one flight to get them down. But you will not be able to consistently perform them unless you learn the power management for the aircraft you are flying. Many students, perhaps most, are taught in 152s or similar training aircraft to "chop" the power. You can easily get away with it in these lighter aircraft. As soon as you move up to an aircraft such as a 182, you will have to alter that technique. Chop power in something like a Bonanza or a light twin, you are likely to knock the fillings loose in your teeth. Smooth, steady power reduction will do the trick.

 

[poadeleted20]

weird... I'll have to re-look at my PIM tonight, but I thought it showed Vs0 as being 41, maybe that was a typo.

Nope -- just knots indicated air speed (KIAS). To find out the proper landing speed, you have to go in the airspeed calibration chart to convert that 41 KIAS stall speed to knots calibrated air speed (KCAS), multiply that by 1.3, and then use the chart to convert the result back to KIAS for what to look for on the ASI. Note that on the difference between KIAS and KCAS grows dramatically (with KIAS being absurdly low) as you get from 1.3 Vs0 (where the difference is usually only a couple of knots) down to stall speed (where it can be almost 15 knots -- see the C-172 POH).

 

[Jeff Oslick]

I fly my 182 (1977 "Q") at 62-63 KIAS on short final with full flaps, and get consistently respectable landings (well, there is that one in a hundred that's an "arrival"). Pitch trim is absolutely essential. I keep dialing it in throughout the approach, and usually have full or nearly full nose up trim by the time I'm crossing the fence. If you need shorter field performance, it can be dragged in at a few knots slower, but a more "firm" landing can be expected (which is fine if you really need to stop quickly).

Jeff

 

[sbonek]

Nope -- just knots indicated air speed (KIAS). To find out the proper landing speed, you have to go in the airspeed calibration chart to convert that 41 KIAS stall speed to knots calibrated air speed (KCAS), multiply that by 1.3, and then use the chart to convert the result back to KIAS for what to look for on the ASI. Note that on the difference between KIAS and KCAS grows dramatically (with KIAS being absurdly low) as you get from 1.3 Vs0 (where the difference is usually only a couple of knots) down to stall speed (where it can be almost 15 knots -- see the C-172 POH).

I sat down last night and looked at the airspeed calibration chart... I never looked at it that close before to see that the difference is much bigger the slower you get. Pretty interesting.

I sat there for about an hour trying to figure out a way to create a chart the interpolate (or maybe it's extrapolate) all of the airspeed values in between those that are shown. Then I did a quick calculation manually of a 182 with full fuel and just me in it, and compared it to full fuel and max gross, and realized the difference is only about 4 knots. So now I know the range or I should be looking for and will make sure if it's just me, I should be on the lower end of that range and if we are near max gross, I should be on the higher end.

Thanks for setting me straight

 

[SteveW]

General rule of thumb for almost ANY high wing Cessna --
Vref = 60 knots
(makes for easier transitioning)

 

[spiderweb]

I have to disagree with some of the recommendations given above about airspeed on final. Please realize that all C182s are not created equally, and certainly not all high-wing Cessnas are created equally. 1.3 * VS0 works just fine. In the new Skylanes, 65-70 KIAS and full flaps works well when light, and 70-75 KIAS with full flaps is good for mid to full loading, IME.

I know a lot of people do it, but I do not recommend ever getting to near or full nose-up trim. I know the guy who wrote the famous Skylane book (can't remember the title), recommended this, too. I don't understand it, unless it is an old Skylane thing. I've flown the new ones at all weights, and never needed that much nose-up trim. How fast are you flying downwind? On final, you go power to 200 or 300 RPM above idle (like someone has already mentioned), and a half-turn of the trim wheel to relieve pressure. You're going to use your arm in the flare, but I recommend power off smoothly just before the flare. If you are near or at full nose-up trim and you have to go around (with full power, anyway), you are going to need a hell of a lot more muscle to push that mofo down to prevent a stall.

 

[KennyFlys]

Just wondering... is all the concern for the nose dropping because of extended gear on the RG's? The R182 I've flown will push over pretty good when the gear extends so you trim accordingly, usually three good rolls. As far as reducing power, it will push over but your power should be pretty well set at least by turning base and not changed unless there's a sudden effect on short final.

What am I missing here?

 

[sbonek]

...snip...

If you are near or at full nose-up trim and you have to go around (with full power, anyway), you are going to need a hell of a lot more muscle to push that mofo down to prevent a stall.

yes, using a whole bunch of trim scares me a little bit, if I do need to go around. I'm going to take a few trips around the pattern today before I head off on an X-C. So once I try a couple different things to see if I can smooth them out, I will "cautiously" do a go-around to make sure it's do-able with how much trim I end up using.

Thanks.

 

[CJones]

Just wondering... is all the concern for the nose dropping because of extended gear on the RG's? The R182 I've flown will push over pretty good when the gear extends so you trim accordingly, usually three good rolls. As far as reducing power, it will push over but your power should be pretty well set at least by turning base and not changed unless there's a sudden effect on short final.

What am I missing here?

Another good way to off-set the pitch change when extending the gear is to add the first notch of flaps. A little bit of flap extension will offset the gear extension easily. That is true in both the R182 and the 177RG that I have flown. With careful coordination with gear extension speed and flap extension, you don't feel any pitch variation with either process.

 

[CJones]

yes, using a whole bunch of trim scares me a little bit, if I do need to go around. I'm going to take a few trips around the pattern today before I head off on an X-C. So once I try a couple different things to see if I can smooth them out, I will "cautiously" do a go-around to make sure it's do-able with how much trim I end up using.

Thanks.

Tony had me perform this maneuver when starting my checkout in the R182. We were trimmed for final approach with full flaps. About 100' or so off the ground, he said "Let's go around." Full power, positive rate of climb, milk the flaps out, etc. etc. Even with 'approach' trim and full flaps, that darn bird will still climb out away from the ground. Granted, the 'approach trim' I had afforded us was a steeper-than-172-approach path, which seems to work in the 182 well. If you keep a steeper final approach descent, you aren't required to keep the previously mentioned mound of nose-up trim.

When we completed the maneuver and were back in the pattern, I asked Tony "Was I doing something wrong? Was I trimmed wrong?" He said "Nope, you were trimmed perfectly for approach, I just wanted to show you that this thing will climb with full flaps and approach trim." I said "Cool! Thanks!"

 

[KennyFlys]

Another good way to off-set the pitch change when extending the gear is to add the first notch of flaps. A little bit of flap extension will offset the gear extension easily. That is true in both the R182 and the 177RG that I have flown. With careful coordination with gear extension speed and flap extension, you don't feel any pitch variation with either process.

True, but normally the gear will be extended somewhere on the 45 or right at entering downwind. You won't hit the first notch of flaps until abeam the the numbers. So, you'll relax the trim up at that time if needed. But then power is reduced so trim up is needed.

It's all part of a coordinated dance.

 

[CJones]

True, but normally the gear will be extended somewhere on the 45 or right at entering downwind. You won't hit the first notch of flaps until abeam the the numbers. So, you'll relax the trim up at that time if needed. But then power is reduced so trim up is needed.

It's all part of a coordinated dance.

I put gear and first notch of flaps down midfield downwind. Second notch on base. And full flaps once field is within sure gliding distance.

 

[SteveW]

he said "Let's go around." Full power, positive rate of climb, milk the flaps out, etc. etc. Even with 'approach' trim and full flaps, that darn bird will still climb out away from the ground.

And if it makes you feel better, it does the same thing even at density altitudes near 5 digits.
The 182 is definitely a sweet bird

Also, once trimmed turning final, I also don't retrim for the flare. The added force to complete the flare isn't that bad, and certainly less than the push after adding fully available power.

 

[poadeleted20]

yes, using a whole bunch of trim scares me a little bit, if I do need to go around.

It shouldn't. The FAA certification standards require that it be well within even below-average strength to control the plane in that situation.

 

[spiderweb]

yes, using a whole bunch of trim scares me a little bit, if I do need to go around. I'm going to take a few trips around the pattern today before I head off on an X-C. So once I try a couple different things to see if I can smooth them out, I will "cautiously" do a go-around to make sure it's do-able with how much trim I end up using.

Thanks.

Here's my take on going around in a hi-performance bird. If you are relatively light, and not at a high density altitude, and not near an obstacle or about to bust an MDA, there is no reason to slam in full power immediately. This is especially true with flying the missed. Get the prop in (if it isn't in already), then put in a good amount of power--say top of green on MP, or maybe 80% power-- arrest your descent, retracting flaps slowly when safe to do so. Gently add more power as needed,* and once you are at Vy (which you probably were close to anyway), you can pitch up and maintain that, or even Vcc, and retract the remaining flaps.

*If it isn't an emergency go-around or if you aren't right at MDA in IMC, smoothly throttling up to something like 80% or top of the green on the MP, and Vcc might be a smoother and easier transition, as long as you can maintain the required climb gradient. In a lightly loaded HP bird, not at a high DA, this should be no problem. See your CFI about this.

 

[spiderweb]

It shouldn't. The FAA certification standards require that it be well within even below-average strength to control the plane in that situation.

This is true, but it is a whole lot of drama and SURPRISE! for someone used to a go around in a C172, especially if the C182 is flown on final with full nose-up trim, and full power is applied quickly. That was part of my checkout, and yes, it was scary the first time. Also, that ball has to be kept in the center.