LA ARTC down during rush hour

From the Air Traffic Control System Command Center (ATCSCC):

ATCSCC ADVZY 007 DCC 07/18/06 ZLA EQUIPMENT OUTAGE GROUND STOP

DUE TO COMPLETE LOSS OF POWER ZLA IS CURRENTLY ATC ZERO. DCC HAS
GROUND STOPED THE 12 WEST CENTERS FOR TEAFFIC TO OR THROUGH ZLA.

AT THIS TIME THERE IS NO EXPECTED TIME FOR THEM TO RETURN TO
SERVICE. DCC WILL KEEP EVERYONE ADVISED THROUGH THIS ADVISORY
SYSTEM.
18044-190100

06/07/19 00:46
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Since then, it looks like restrictions have been cut and Advisory 011 has been discontinued. Power has been restored.
 
Why in the world would they not have backup generators for these
sites? I have a 25kw one for my I.T. Dept and computer room and
it wasn't that expensive.
 
RogerT said:
Why in the world would they not have backup generators for these
sites? I have a 25kw one for my I.T. Dept and computer room and
it wasn't that expensive.
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The "uninterruptable" power system of course was interrupted, and the backup generator of course failed. Put in a call to the FAA for more details...good luck!

Jason
 
Why in the world would you stop traffic because there's no ATC. Wouldn't traffic be able to use position reports to get where they need to go?

Afterall....how important is ATC really?
 
SkyHog said:
Why in the world would you stop traffic because there's no ATC. Wouldn't traffic be able to use position reports to get where they need to go?

Afterall....how important is ATC really?
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Try landing in the LA basin sometime. Especially LAX. I would have deverted somewhere also. It just would not be worth the risk. Some people would talk to much (position reports) and some would not talk at all in that small area.
 
SkyHog said:
Why in the world would you stop traffic because there's no ATC. Wouldn't traffic be able to use position reports to get where they need to go?
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They wouldn't be able to use position reports because ZLA had no way to communicate with the aircraft as they had no power for communication equipment. Even if they did, non-radar proceedures would have to be used and it really slows down the whole system as well. You obviously can't handle the same amount of traffic volume when a facility is without radar and completely NORDO.

The TMU's (Traffic Management Unit) in US ARTCC's have very important roles that many don't see and it's pretty difficult to funnel all sorts of traffic into many destinations across the world coming into or out of the same place/area.

SkyHog said:
Afterall....how important is ATC really?
Click to expand...

'Pretty important when you realize how much traffic volume transits a certain facility's airspace.
 
HPNPilot1200 said:
The "uninterruptable" power system of course was interrupted, and the backup generator of course failed. Put in a call to the FAA for more details...good luck!

Jason
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Hey, I'm sure the power system design is the state of the art....












....as of when the contract was completed in 1965. :rolleyes:
 
Brent Bradford said:
Try landing in the LA basin sometime. Especially LAX. I would have deverted somewhere also. It just would not be worth the risk. Some people would talk to much (position reports) and some would not talk at all in that small area.
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All of a sudden, I get a warm fuzzy knowing those airliners all had TCAS on board...

With everybody diverting, how do they coordinate altitude and lateral separation? Lost comm procedures would help SOMEWHAT, but those are targetted more towards a single plane losing comm, not EVERYBODY.

Looks like the FAA needs to invest more in infrastructure. Do they do actual failover tests? (I understand that could be risky).
 
Here in San Diego landings were permited for traffic enroute but no take off until after 8:45pm. I guess it was a pretty huge mess. Why it took 45 minutes to get a back generator running is beyond me. They should have that up and running with in a few minutes and the system should be on UPSs
 
SkyHog said:
Why in the world would you stop traffic because there's no ATC. Wouldn't traffic be able to use position reports to get where they need to go?
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Position reports made to who? On what frequency?

I think you are confusing the loss of radar with the loss of all of ATC in one center's area.

Then again, assuming that the TRACONs weren't integrated with center, the TRACONs might have been able to take over from center provided there was a plan to do so (I guess there wasn't) and the traffic itself knew enough about the plan to switch to TRACON frequencies.

Now that they realize that a total loss of one center is possible and the chaos it creates, perhaps they will actually implement such a plan?
 
How about position reports to others on the frequency shown on the charts. I can't imagine that you need an ARTCC to look at a chart, or even to broadcast on a frequency.

Sure - it would slow down, but how did air travel work before the creation of ARTCCs?

How do we function at non-towered airports in both VFR and IFR?

Its doable.
 
SkyHog said:
How about position reports to others on the frequency shown on the charts. I can't imagine that you need an ARTCC to look at a chart, or even to broadcast on a frequency.

Sure - it would slow down, but how did air travel work before the creation of ARTCCs?

How do we function at non-towered airports in both VFR and IFR?

Its doable.
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Yeabut, who would tell you that the frequency is now a CTAF? :p They had no radios.

We just had a fire on a CTA subway. The motorman called on the radio for the track power to be shut off and then walked through the packed-at-rush-hour train and told people to evacuate. As per usual the CTA never told the passengers what was going on.

When it was posted to the Tribune blog one helpful citizen said, "Idiots! How could they make an announcement when the power was out?" Yeah. It's not like public safety systems should have backup batteries or anything. I guess they shouldn't have expected the LIGHTS IN A TUNNEL UNDER THE RIVER to be working either.

You would hope the FAA is going to get a call from contingency teams at the Department of Homeland Security but maybe instead they'll get be told "You're doing a heckava job!"
 
SkyHog said:
How about position reports to others on the frequency shown on the charts. I can't imagine that you need an ARTCC to look at a chart, or even to broadcast on a frequency.

Sure - it would slow down, but how did air travel work before the creation of ARTCCs?

How do we function at non-towered airports in both VFR and IFR?

Its doable.
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Problem is you've got a *LOT* more aircraft now. Not only that your aircraft are *fast*. They close on each other very rapidly.

We function at non-towered airports because they do not have a lot of traffic. When the level of traffic reaches the point to where it is no longer safe a control tower is created. Or someone designates themself as being the control tower and saves the day (Steve aka Gastons Approach).

The other issue is you have all of these aircraft who are in an utter state of confusion. They were just talking to controllers and now the controllers aren't there anymore. They aren't sure if they should leave the frequency or what exactly they are supposed to do.

I don't know about you all. But if Minneapolis Approach were to straight up just disappear I'd be awful hesitant about getting anywhere near MSP. There are already jets everywhere you look. Things would happen way too quick.

Most of the operations that we do uncontrolled under own seperation quite frankly we are largely depending on the "big sky theory". Yes we try to say that we provide our own seperation, "see and avoid" The problem is you can't always see another airplane until it's too late. Or you are looking at your sectional for two seconds..next think you know you are dead....The more aircraft you get and the smaller area you put them in the less the big sky theory will protect you.

I'm quite convinced myself that not having a mid air collision is largely dependant on avoiding small areas with heavy concentrations of aircraft, air traffic control, the big sky theory, and some luck. The "see and avoid" will always protect you...Is just some crap we tell ourselves so we can sleep at night.
 
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HPNPilot1200 said:
The "uninterruptable" power system of course was interrupted, and the backup generator of course failed. Put in a call to the FAA for more details...good luck!

Jason
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Here is my understanding of what happened.

A truck ran into a power pole and created a power outage in the area. The backup generator worked fine at that point. However, it failed about 40 minutes later.

greg
 
river_rat said:
Here is my understanding of what happened.

A truck ran into a power pole and created a power outage in the area. The backup generator worked fine at that point. However, it failed about 40 minutes later.

greg
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Ah, that would be because the airport linemen, in order to cover the fact that they took a bagage truck our for a joy ride the night before, siphoned the diesel out of the backup's fuel tank into the trucks tank.

\:D:D:yes::yes::rofl::rofl:
 
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