KAND ILS RWY 5 review

[jdwatson]

I was practicing random approaches (in SIM) the other night and this one popped out.

Anderson Regional (KAND) ILS RWY 5

I found it very interesting. Not your usual ILS. DME arcs, 3 IAFs and a button hook approach. Very cool.

The 274 IAF seems to correspond to eastbound V311, HARTI corresponds to V20-35 and ELW IAF for westbound V311.

Comments ? Oberservations ?

 

[Bill]

I found it very interesting. Not your usual ILS. DME arcs, 3 IAFs and a button hook approach. Very cool.

And, the missed has you crossing either the airport or the short final, I guess depending on how much ground you cover climbing to 1600 before the left turn.

 

[Lance F]

This approach is interesting enough I might just fly out there and practice it. First fly to ELW as the IAF and do the teardrop entry, do a miss to a couple of turns in the hold, and then fly out R-274 and do the DME entry. If one wanted and Greer Approach was accomodating, you could also get in a VOR approach, an RNAV approach and an NDB approach (nah, no ADF...darn )

It's not a busy airport. Thanks for the heads up.

 

[jdwatson]

Missed approaches like this one always have me thinking about other traffic.

The Jepp instructions are:
Climb to 1600' then climbing left turn to 2500' direct ELW VOR and hold.

It seems like they are expecting you to get to 2500' (only 900' more) pretty quickly. 1600' is nearly TPA, so local traffic shouldn't be a problem.

I'd like to fly this one for real sometime. Lance, let me know how it goes !

 

[ScottM]

Hmm... 'approach 12345 requests radar vectors to final for the KAND ILS5 approach'

I think that reminds me why I need to go and practice some DME arcs.

 

[grattonja]

I find the IAF on the arc interesting. It is clearly an IAF, and it seems to correspond with the intersection of the 7 dme arc and the 274 radial. But there is no waypoint shown there. If you were flying this with an IFR GPS, you couldn't fly directly to there to start the approach, correct?

Actually, in looking at it, how would you get to that IAF? There is no indicated feeder route from the ELW VOR. That is an IAF for the teardrop entry to the south. How, and why, would you get to the arc IAF? If off an airway (a reasonable suggestion) how would you locate it? I don't think you can simply go "direct to" with GPS because of the lack of waypoint.

Interesting approach. Of course, my questions are likely academic, as I would imagine, at those elevations, there would be radar vectors to final.

Jim G

 

[Lance F]

I find the IAF on the arc interesting. It is clearly an IAF, and it seems to correspond with the intersection of the 7 dme arc and the 274 radial. But there is no waypoint shown there. If you were flying this with an IFR GPS, you couldn't fly directly to there to start the approach, correct?

Actually, in looking at it, how would you get to that IAF? There is no indicated feeder route from the ELW VOR. That is an IAF for the teardrop entry to the south. How, and why, would you get to the arc IAF? If off an airway (a reasonable suggestion) how would you locate it? I don't think you can simply go "direct to" with GPS because of the lack of waypoint.

Interesting approach. Of course, my questions are likely academic, as I would imagine, at those elevations, there would be radar vectors to final.

Jim G

Very good question. There's no way a GPS can get anywhere without a waypoint. That's why there are all those crazy identifiers in parentheses on the RNAV approaches. I'm going out to the plane after work, will fire up the 430 and see if the DME approach is in there and if so how they identify the IAF.

 

[Bill]

I find the IAF on the arc interesting. It is clearly an IAF, and it seems to correspond with the intersection of the 7 dme arc and the 274 radial. But there is no waypoint shown there. If you were flying this with an IFR GPS, you couldn't fly directly to there to start the approach, correct?

Actually, in looking at it, how would you get to that IAF? There is no indicated feeder route from the ELW VOR. That is an IAF for the teardrop entry to the south. How, and why, would you get to the arc IAF? If off an airway (a reasonable suggestion) how would you locate it? I don't think you can simply go "direct to" with GPS because of the lack of waypoint.

Interesting approach. Of course, my questions are likely academic, as I would imagine, at those elevations, there would be radar vectors to final.

Jim G

Jim, now that you mention it, I'm buffalo'd as well. Maybe you could fly inbound in the 248 at 3000 or greater, and begin your turnin to the arc at 7.5 DME, dunno.

Even asking for vectors is interesting, you can't ask to get to an intersection.

 

[jdwatson]

I find the IAF on the arc interesting. It is clearly an IAF, and it seems to correspond with the intersection of the 7 dme arc and the 274 radial. But there is no waypoint shown there. If you were flying this with an IFR GPS, you couldn't fly directly to there to start the approach, correct?

If you're come eastbound on V311 (west of ELW), use the VOR as your reference for the DME distance and follow the 274 radial in. In the KLN-94, you could setup ELW VOR as your destination, and use OBS mode to keep you on the airway. The intersection of 7 DME and the 274 radial is discrete but it's not a GPS waypoint as you've pointed out.

Actually, in looking at it, how would you get to that IAF? There is no indicated feeder route from the ELW VOR. That is an IAF for the teardrop entry to the south. How, and why, would you get to the arc IAF? If off an airway (a reasonable suggestion) how would you locate it? I don't think you can simply go "direct to" with GPS because of the lack of waypoint.

V311, V20-35, and V266 (looking at the IFR enroute chart) go directly to the ELW VOR. On the Jepp plate, there's 341 radial marked that I cannot figure out it's purpose.

Coming from KCLT, I would expect to get V54 SPA V266 ELW. So I would shoot the teardrop shoot the teardrop.

The Garmin 530 simulator does the following for the 274 DME Arc approach:

D274G ia    252
dme arc     ELW  7.0
D284G       188  3.2
CF05        050  1.6
SPENY fa    050  5.6
RW05  ma    050  5.2

 

[poadeleted20]

I find the IAF on the arc interesting. It is clearly an IAF, and it seems to correspond with the intersection of the 7 dme arc and the 274 radial. But there is no waypoint shown there. If you were flying this with an IFR GPS, you couldn't fly directly to there to start the approach, correct?

Correct.

Actually, in looking at it, how would you get to that IAF?

Join either the ELW R274 or ELW 7DME arc and track to that point (you can use an IFR GPS to track DME arcs outside the IAF, just not once you're on the SIAP). Or, if you have a rho/theta VOR/DME-based RNAV system (like a KNS-80), just crank in the 274/7 and follow the steering.

 

[121Dispatch]

On the Jepp plate, there's 341 radial marked that I cannot figure out it's purpose.
[/code]

It appears the 341 radial is to identify where you will cross SPENY. The VOR sits just south of the ILS course, so that's my best guess.

I have my IR checkride scheduled for Thursday at KAND. The DE told me the ILS is OTS, so we will go to Donaldson Center for the ILS, and back to KAND for the other approaches. This may make for an interesting discussion during the oral. I'll let you know if any interesting tidbits about this approach come up.

 

[grattonja]

Join either the ELW R274 or ELW 7DME arc and track to that point (you can use an IFR GPS to track DME arcs outside the IAF, just not once you're on the SIAP). Or, if you have a rho/theta VOR/DME-based RNAV system (like a KNS-80), just crank in the 274/7 and follow the steering.

Gotcha. The question remains, though, why would you elect to go this direction when you can fly the teardrop from ELW instead?

As to the GPS/DME arc question, this ruling makes absolutely no sense to me. All the new skyhawks are coming with some form of GPS in lieu of DME, so this means that none of these new planes can fly these DME Arcs on approaches? Sorry, I know what the email you received says, but I ain't buyin' that as a correct interpretation. It makes arcs not possible for any of us navigating with a KLN94 or a Garmin 430/530. Ditto, I would assume, for the glass paneled aircraft. Unless the FAA is dropping all these arc approaches in the near future, they sure are limiting their usefulness.

Jim G

 

[jdwatson]

It appears the 341 radial is to identify where you will cross SPENY. The VOR sits just south of the ILS course, so that's my best guess.

Yes !!! It's more apparent on the NACO charts than on the Jepp, at least for me.

Gotcha. The question remains, though, why would you elect to go this direction when you can fly the teardrop from ELW instead?
Jim G

Cuz, flying DME arcs is good fun. ...and you get to skip the PT.

 

[poadeleted20]

Gotcha. The question remains, though, why would you elect to go this direction when you can fly the teardrop from ELW instead?

Doubt you would, but if you were coming from the outside rather than the inside, joining the arc or radial might make sense.

As to the GPS/DME arc question, this ruling makes absolutely no sense to me. All the new skyhawks are coming with some form of GPS in lieu of DME, so this means that none of these new planes can fly these DME Arcs on approaches?

That's correct.

Sorry, I know what the email you received says, but I ain't buyin' that as a correct interpretation.

This is an operational, not a legal, issue. Unlike legal interpretations of what the regulations mean, which must come from FAA Counsel and are final when the Counsel speaks, direction on what is authorized for instrument flight procedures comes from AFS-400, and they have spoken.

It makes arcs not possible for any of us navigating with a KLN94 or a Garmin 430/530. Ditto, I would assume, for the glass paneled aircraft. Unless the FAA is dropping all these arc approaches in the near future, they sure are limiting their usefulness.

Given the ability of those systems to fly the RNAV(GPS) approaches, and the increasing number of those (especially the T-shaped TAA approaches), and the rarity of approaches requiring flying a DME arc, I don't think the inability to use an IFR GPS to fly a DME arc on an approach is going to be a significant operational limitation.

 

[grattonja]

Given the ability of those systems to fly the RNAV(GPS) approaches, and the increasing number of those (especially the T-shaped TAA approaches), and the rarity of approaches requiring flying a DME arc, I don't think the inability to use an IFR GPS to fly a DME arc on an approach is going to be a significant operational limitation.

Right now, courtesy of runway lengthening and consequent temporary loss of the glideslope at LNS, one of the best minimums, almost 100 feet lower than the LOC8, is the VOR DME8. No way around the arc in a really scuzzy day. Both flight schools that train on the field use, among other things, new 172s without DME.

I understand the ruling but still say it doesn't absolutely make sense.

But I'll stop hijacking this thread now, as the issue is being beaten on elsewhere

Jim G

 

[Carol]

.....

I have my IR checkride scheduled for Thursday at KAND. The DE told me the ILS is OTS, so we will go to Donaldson Center for the ILS, and back to KAND for the other approaches. This may make for an interesting discussion during the oral. I'll let you know if any interesting tidbits about this approach come up.

Good luck to you on the checkride.

If I was looking at that approach in bad wx I'd divert to GSP.

 

[jdwatson]

If I was looking at that approach in bad wx I'd divert to GSP.

Carol,
Why not ask for the HARTI IAF and shoot the ILS ? That's gotta be better than diverting.

 

[Carol]

Carol,
Why not ask for the HARTI IAF and shoot the ILS ? That's gotta be better than diverting.

We need to get Greebo to put an icon in here for "tongue in cheek."

I live in the area and sometimes do practice approaches out there. Are they still working on the runway at AND?

 

[poadeleted20]

Right now, courtesy of runway lengthening and consequent temporary loss of the glideslope at LNS, one of the best minimums, almost 100 feet lower than the LOC8, is the VOR DME8. No way around the arc in a really scuzzy day.

There sure is -- vectors to final, and then use the IFR GPS to identify the NUNCE 4.8D fix, the VDP, and the MAP.

 

[jdwatson]

We need to get Greebo to put an icon in here for "tongue in cheek."

That would be helpful. I don't live/fly near KAND. I stumbled on the approach and thought it was kind of different for an ILS.