Just Starting Out

Owenrg

Owenrg

Filing Flight Plan
Joined
Jul 31, 2010
Messages
25
Location
Tulsa OK
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Display name:
Owenrg
I'm about to finish up with my part 141 flight program and am looking into aerobatics. I've done them before with my dad in his Yak-52 and can't get enough. I've practiced a little myself but would love to get some real lessons. I'll be moving to Virginia by September probably and was wondering how should i go about seeing if there is anyone in the area that could hook me up?

Glad to see there was an aerobatics section but it's not very full!
 
You might check out the International Aerobatics Club web site for information on instructors in the area where you will be living. www.iac.org or you can see if there is a local chapter of the organization and contact those folks for recommendations. There are folks on this forum who might know someone too... try posting over on the student pilot forum about it as it's a request for CFI and you'll prolly get plenty of responses. There is a guy who teaches in Lubbock, TX in a Pitts that I can recommend if you want to take a long weekend and go over there - Don't know how far Tulsa is from Lubbock?? If you want his info let me know
Have fun - but remember - it's addicting
 
Owenrg said:
Glad to see there was an aerobatics section but it's not very full!
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Well, there are ten pages of discussion so far (and some of it heated). :D Some of us feel like we've said everything we wanted to say and asked everything we wanted to ask. Some don't do aerobatics anymore. Some sold their aerobatic airplanes. And some just don't post here anymore. I used to post quite a bit on studentpilot.com, however their aerobatic forum slowed down, too.

I've considered selling my aerobatic books, and parachutes. The new (stupid) bureaucratic mess that is now involved with setting up an aerobatic practice area really ****ed me off.

Now that you and Jeannie are posting here, maybe you can get things stirred up. :yes:
 
Diana said:
Well, there are ten pages of discussion so far (and some of it heated). :D Some of us feel like we've said everything we wanted to say and asked everything we wanted to ask. Some don't do aerobatics anymore. Some sold their aerobatic airplanes. And some just don't post here anymore. I used to post quite a bit on studentpilot.com, however their aerobatic forum slowed down, too.

I've considered selling my aerobatic books, and parachutes. The new (stupid) bureaucratic mess that is now involved with setting up an aerobatic practice area really ****ed me off.

Now that you and Jeannie are posting here, maybe you can get things stirred up. :yes:
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Do you really need a box?

Some info here about using existing boxes: http://www.iac78.org/newsletter/NL spring_2010.pdf starting on page 10...

According to this, you may need to do an environmental impact study for a new box. If you have one already, do not let it expire.

And, fwiw, it's a long way for you Diana, but IAC Chapter 78 will be having it's annual contest Aug 14/15 in Spencer Iowa - I plan to be there (but not flying).
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
Do you really need a box?

Some info here about using existing boxes: http://www.iac78.org/newsletter/NL spring_2010.pdf starting on page 10...

According to this, you may need to do an environmental impact study for a new box. If you have one already, do not let it expire.

And, fwiw, it's a long way for you Diana, but IAC Chapter 78 will be having it's annual contest Aug 14/15 in Spencer Iowa - I plan to be there (but not flying).
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There was a box out here that I couldn't use and now it's expired anyway. I have found an area to practice... Jeff suggested yesterday that I use Google Earth to map out the distances and find a couple of good points to mark somehow on the ground to make a virtual box, if you will, so I'll start working on that. But if I only want to do this for fun and not worry about competition then even setting up a 'practice box' isn't needed. Haven't decided yet about the competition thing. Scott Poehlmann invited me to fly in the SD w/ him flying in the Yak55 up to Lamar Colo in October - Might go and try at least once. It'll only be Primary so maybe by then I can be ready. The camraderie will be worth it.
 
I have found an area to practice...
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Jeanie: I thought as long as you are more than 4 miles from an airway and not around an airport, you could do acro. It sounds like this is what you are doing. My particulars could be off a little, as I haven't checked the regs lately and my memory isn't what it once was. When I flew with our local acro instructor, we didn't have a box either.
 
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If you will be in Virginia, go see Adam Cope http://www.dcaerobatics.com He instructs in a Super Decathlon, has extensive competition experience and is regarded as an excellent instructor.

As far as the rules go - FAR 91-303 states:

No person may operate an aircraft in aerobatic flight

(a) Over any congested area of a city, town, or settlement
(b) Over an open air assembly of persons
(c) Within the lateral boundaries of the surface areas of Class B, Class C, Class D, or Class E airspace designated for an airport
(d) Within 4 nautical miles of the center line of any Federal airway
(e) Below an altitude of 1,500 feet above the surface; or
(f) When flight visibility is less than 3 statute miles.

Aerobatic boxes are typically only set up for two reasons - conflict with an airway and/or the desire to fly acro below 1500' AGL. The best aerobatic practice area is right above the pattern at any airport, assuming the above-stated requirements are met, and that noise complaints don't put the airport in a bad spot. It's a good idea to have emergency landing options underneath you when doing acro, and a runway makes a great visual reference if you're going to attempt to fly with any precision.
 
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somorris said:
Jeanie: I thought as long as you are more than 4 miles from an airway and not around an airport, you could do acro. It sounds like this is what you are doing. My particulars could be off a little, as I haven't checked the regs lately and my memory isn't what it once was. When I flew with our local acro instructor, we didn't have a box either.
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That's correct - I won't be in a formal practice area. I'll just be out over the "flats" w/ some dirt roads for reference.
 
Owenrg said:
Glad to see there was an aerobatics section but it's not very full!
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I tried acro for a while and I enjoyed it but both my personal and work duties have taken precedence for a couple years, besides which the school I was using is over an hour away. I keep saying one of these days I will get back to it...
 
The best aerobatic practice area is right above the pattern at any airport, assuming the above-stated requirements are met, and that noise complaints don't put the airport in a bad spot.
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Wifferdill: So this means if Diana wants to do acro over her personally owned airport and it doesn't have Class E airspace designated and she is not within 4 miles of an airway or within Class E, she can do that without having a box? At least that is the way I interpret it.
 
somorris said:
Wifferdill: So this means if Diana wants to do acro over her personally owned airport and it doesn't have Class E airspace designated and she is not within 4 miles of an airway or within Class E, she can do that without having a box? At least that is the way I interpret it.
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The 1500' rule trumps the Class E rule, since Class E airspace designated for an airport goes no higher than 1200' AGL. You can do acro ABOVE airport Class E, so it's really not a factor. So the answer to your question would be yes, if all requirements listed above are met. Technically, Items A and B could be open to interpretation, but those are more or less common sense issues. The rest of the requirements are pretty clear cut.
 
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The combination of reading this, and watching all that wicked-cool aero at OSH, makes me wish for the opportunity to learn a bit of it for myself... which I may or may not do, but can dream of, at least. It was oddly affecting to watch the routine with the Beech F33A...
 
SCCutler said:
The combination of reading this, and watching all that wicked-cool aero at OSH, makes me wish for the opportunity to learn a bit of it for myself... which I may or may not do, but can dream of, at least. It was oddly affecting to watch the routine with the Beech F33A...
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Hi Spike, Would there be a video of that routine available anywhere? I"m curious about it.
 
Oh, Diana!

Did the Fed environmental require push you over the edge....? :(
 
bbchien said:
Oh, Diana!

Did the Fed environmental require push you over the edge....? :(
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Bruce, this stuff is so absurd that it leaves me shaking my head.
 

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Diana said:
Bruce, this stuff is so absurd that it leaves me shaking my head.
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Read Peggy Noonan's Op Ed in the Wall Street Journal today. She's so spot on. I'll scan it if you need.....

check email.
 
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Absurd and mind boggling. Bruce I'd like to see that article also if you can send it this way as well... jean@bigbend.net
Thanks
 
When you get to Virginia, look me up. I would love to get you started on your aerobatic goals.

Adam

Adam Cope
www.dcaerobatics.com
703-623-9445
 
I have one more lesson left in an 8 lesson Aerobatics course. I am a 75 hour pilot having passed my checkride in May at 50 hours. I highly recommend the aero to all of my pilot and student pilot friends. I have learned so much more about plane control in 7 lessons than I did during my private.

Plus how cool is it to impress your friends with your videos of cloverleafs and Cuban 8's.
 
legallegend said:
Thanks. Here is the video of my clover leaf.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Pg3wo13da0

Not perfect, but a tolerable first attempt.
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Congrats on getting acro training!

I mean this purely constructively - I promise.... :D A clover (either up or down) is meant to have the roll smoothly integrated with the pitch change. You were doing straight 3/4 loops with a hesitation upon reaching vertical down, and performing a quick quarter vertical roll before proceeding with the looping portion. There was no roll/pitch integration. This acheives a similar net effect, but eliminates the challenge and finesse associated with a proper clover. Plus, it would probably "zero" in competition. :D I'm curious, did your acro instructor teach clovers like this?

For each quarter clover down in the "leaf" (rolling going down rather than up), you should maintain the plane of your loop until you reach the inverted position with your fuselage parallel to the horizon. At this precise moment, you should start a roll at a constant rate (it will be slow) while continuing with the pitch change required by a normal loop such that you simultaneously finish the roll upright AND reach a level pitch attitude, 90 degrees from your original heading. It involves rolling and pitching throughout the whole second half of the loop. It's an exercise in timing and multi-tasking pitch and roll.

Quarter clovers up involve the same concept, but integrate the roll into the first half of the loop rather than the second. I find situational awareness a little more difficult with the clover up. From level flight, simultaneously pitch the airplane up and start a roll at a constant rate such that you simultaneously finish the half roll AND reach the inverted level pitch position 90 degrees from your original heading. Then it's just a normal half loop down.

Acro never gets dull since you're always chasing perfection in even the simplest maneuvers. Keep it up and have fun!


BTW, check out Adam Cope's video of the 2010 Sportsman sequence. Figure #4 is a quarter clover down.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxjnkBuSfQ4

Eric
 
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As I mentioned, that was a first attempt and the instructor was on board. I have a total of about 1.7 to 2 hours acro time and 75 hours total flight time. Never said I was trying to reach competition standards. Simply trying to improve stick and rudder skills. So it was not a true clover. It was 4 3/4 loops joined by quarter vertical roll. Still looks pretty good for the uninitiated.
 
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Looked pretty cool to me. Don't think I've seen a clover leaf before. I watched Adam's video and I couldn't tell from that what was happening either.... Guess I need to see one being done from the ground to get a picture of it.

What kind of plane are you flying legallegend? I have a super decathlon
 
This was a Citabria. Pretty neat little plane. I can see how folks would like to have something like this to put around in.

I finish up my course tomorrow and then will start IR training in a few weeks.
 
legallegend said:
Thanks. Here is the video of my clover leaf.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Pg3wo13da0

Not perfect, but a tolerable first attempt.
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Thanks for sharing your video. :) It makes me want to go flying. But, it's too darn hot right now to enjoy it.

It's a good thing there weren't as many critics here when I started posting my videos when I first got into aerobatics. :D

legallegend said:
This was a Citabria. Pretty neat little plane. I can see how folks would like to have something like this to put around in.
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We've enjoyed owning ours for eleven years now. We've traveled thousands of miles in it, including a trip into northern Canada. I love my Citabria. :)
 
SCCutler said:
The combination of reading this, and watching all that wicked-cool aero at OSH, makes me wish for the opportunity to learn a bit of it for myself... which I may or may not do, but can dream of, at least. It was oddly affecting to watch the routine with the Beech F33A...
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What about this? How soon they forget. :cryin: :p
 

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legallegend said:
As I mentioned, that was a first attempt and the instructor was on board. I have a total of about 1.7 to 2 hours acro time and 75 hours total flight time. Never said I was trying to reach competition standards. Simply trying to improve stick and rudder skills. So it was not a true clover. It was 4 3/4 loops joined by quarter vertical roll. Still looks pretty good for the uninitiated.
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Hey, my comments weren't so much meant to be a reflection on you, but more questioning of your instructor if that's how he/she was teaching clovers. Your loops and vertical rolls looked pretty good. :D I was just hoping to describe a clover incase your instructor did not, or did not show you very well. Since you were very precise and consistent in the way you flew them, I assumed you were flying them this way on purpose. It didn't appear that you simply flew them sloppily. That's why I assumed your instructor didn't teach them to you correctly. It's kinda like the difference between flying a wedge and a half-cuban. They're similar figures, but the wedge has a pause on the vertical line, rather than a continuous pull. Two different maneuvers. Like I said, I was hoping to be purely constructive. Looks like you're doing great for the acro time you have. BTW, I don't even see a whole lot of clovers done exactly right in competition. :D Adam's clover in the video was done well.
 
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Diana said:
Bruce, this stuff is so absurd that it leaves me shaking my head.
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Diana, have you talked to any of the IAC government affairs folk that help with waivers? I'm hearing that these requirements aren't posing much problem this time around. I'm hearing pretty high success rate stories for getting boxes renewed even with the new requirements.
 
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