It happened to me: I have a number for you to call

SkyHog

SkyHog

Touchdown! Greaser!
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Feb 23, 2005
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Castle Rock, CO
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Everything Offends Me
This was a weird afternoon to fly....

I took my GF up with me today to get one more landing so I'm current next week for our Vegas trip. I am current right now, but one of my landings will expire next Wednesday, so I figured I'd pick one up today. I didn't want to do too much flying so I could save coin, so my plan was to depart KABQ, head over towards the mountains (Tramway/Lomas) and then fly around the city a bit and come back.

All was well, until I was handed off to departure. I was north of Runway 8/26

Departure: Arrow 32492, radar contact, Understand you're headed to Tramway and Lomas? You're a little close to the airport, I need you to turn south.
Me: I can give you north, 492
Departure: 492, I need you south, south of the airport.

Well, that didn't make much sense, but I pulled a stupid pilot trick and figured she knew what she was doing, so I headed south. As I crossed runway 26, I saw a Southwest Jet on final, and kept my distance from him, making sure I kept him in sight.

Departure: 492, you just crossed my final, what are you doing south of the airport, you're going to Tramway and Lomas.
Me: Umm, you said go south, so I went south.
Departure: Ok, I need to figure out what's going on here, turn on course now.
Me: Ok, on course, 492.
Departure: *audible sigh*

I got a little ****y and flew to Tramway and Lomas and felt distracted by my anger, so I immediately called to say I wanted to come back in to land.

I called tower and was cleared to land on runway 26...this was how it went:

Me: Cleared to land, runway 26, 492. Tower, can you mark departure's tapes for me?
Tower: *long delay* Ummm...yes. As requested.
Me: Thank you, Tower.
Tower: Exit runway 26 at E3, taxi to Cutter, and, uh, I have a number for you to call, advise ready to copy.

I was livid. Could that horrible woman have deviated me for something? I calmed down, wrote down the number and called them after I shut down.

Supervisor: Albuquerque Tower supervisor
Me: Yeah, this is 32496, I was told to call
Supervisor: Oh yeah, what can I do for you?
Me: (nervous laugh) Umm...you told me to call you
Supervisor: Oh, its not often that we have a pilot ask us to mark tapes, what happened?


And I explained it to her, nicely, actually. I told her that I wasn't sure what happened, and if it was my mistake, I'd love to hear what I did so that I can avoid it again in the future, and if it was the controller's mistake, I'm sure she felt the same way.

Supervisor: You wanna talk to her? She's nice!
Me: Sure!
Departure controller: Hi, so what happened up there?
Me: That's why I'm calling, I wanna know what went wrong, and how we can avoid it in the future!
Departure: Well, I think there was some confusion, there was an aircraft south of the airport that I gave the command to. He understood because he immediately turned south just like you did.
Me: Ahh, you said my tail number and even verified that I wasn't going south. You also mentioned Tramway and Lomas
Departure: That is weird. I dunno, I'll pull the tapes and listen to them
Me: Listen, I just wanted to make sure I didn't bone up there. Thank you for explaining what happened. There was no incident, no deal, and everyone's better. Thank you for your time.

So - I learned a few lessons though, even one that I already knew, just never practiced:

1) I am the PIC. I knew something was weird about the command to cross the airport, but I did it anyway. The correct response should have been "Do you want me to cross your final" or something to be perfectly clear.
2) Controllers are human too. I don't know exactly how this mistake happened, but it did, so I know it can happen.
3) Asking for tapes to be marked could be an excellent way to discuss a potential problem between the controller and a pilot. It worked in this case.

What say y'all?
 
First, it could have happened to anybody. Controller screwups aren't that uncommon. What would I have done differently? Because I flew international with a guy who was adamant about making sure controllers are fully aware of who you are, where you are and what you want (and due to language and attitude issues it's even more important outside the US) I would have continued to ask questions until I was sure we were on the same page. Assertive is probably too strong a word, at least at first, but when I've got a dog in the fight I tend to be a little more persistent.

I also know it's not uncommon to be vectored and forgotten, especially by busy-airspace controllers, so I am spring-loaded to the WTF position (but politely as you did) to be sure we all have our head in the game. Maybe an unsolicited ident to wake her up, reinforcing her SA and pointing out where I want to go is over here, and where she wants me to go is over there. "Approach, out of curiosity can you tell me why . . ." seems to work pretty well around here.

All said and done, I think you handled it well. Sounds like they do too.

SkyHog said:
This was a weird afternoon to fly....

I took my GF up with me today to get one more landing so I'm current next week for our Vegas trip. I am current right now, but one of my landings will expire next Wednesday, so I figured I'd pick one up today. I didn't want to do too much flying so I could save coin, so my plan was to depart KABQ, head over towards the mountains (Tramway/Lomas) and then fly around the city a bit and come back.

All was well, until I was handed off to departure. I was north of Runway 8/26

Departure: Arrow 32492, radar contact, Understand you're headed to Tramway and Lomas? You're a little close to the airport, I need you to turn south.
Me: I can give you north, 492
Departure: 492, I need you south, south of the airport.

Well, that didn't make much sense, but I pulled a stupid pilot trick and figured she knew what she was doing, so I headed south. As I crossed runway 26, I saw a Southwest Jet on final, and kept my distance from him, making sure I kept him in sight.

Departure: 492, you just crossed my final, what are you doing south of the airport, you're going to Tramway and Lomas.
Me: Umm, you said go south, so I went south.
Departure: Ok, I need to figure out what's going on here, turn on course now.
Me: Ok, on course, 492.
Departure: *audible sigh*

I got a little ****y and flew to Tramway and Lomas and felt distracted by my anger, so I immediately called to say I wanted to come back in to land.

I called tower and was cleared to land on runway 26...this was how it went:

Me: Cleared to land, runway 26, 492. Tower, can you mark departure's tapes for me?
Tower: *long delay* Ummm...yes. As requested.
Me: Thank you, Tower.
Tower: Exit runway 26 at E3, taxi to Cutter, and, uh, I have a number for you to call, advise ready to copy.

I was livid. Could that horrible woman have deviated me for something? I calmed down, wrote down the number and called them after I shut down.

Supervisor: Albuquerque Tower supervisor
Me: Yeah, this is 32496, I was told to call
Supervisor: Oh yeah, what can I do for you?
Me: (nervous laugh) Umm...you told me to call you
Supervisor: Oh, its not often that we have a pilot ask us to mark tapes, what happened?


And I explained it to her, nicely, actually. I told her that I wasn't sure what happened, and if it was my mistake, I'd love to hear what I did so that I can avoid it again in the future, and if it was the controller's mistake, I'm sure she felt the same way.

Supervisor: You wanna talk to her? She's nice!
Me: Sure!
Departure controller: Hi, so what happened up there?
Me: That's why I'm calling, I wanna know what went wrong, and how we can avoid it in the future!
Departure: Well, I think there was some confusion, there was an aircraft south of the airport that I gave the command to. He understood because he immediately turned south just like you did.
Me: Ahh, you said my tail number and even verified that I wasn't going south. You also mentioned Tramway and Lomas
Departure: That is weird. I dunno, I'll pull the tapes and listen to them
Me: Listen, I just wanted to make sure I didn't bone up there. Thank you for explaining what happened. There was no incident, no deal, and everyone's better. Thank you for your time.

So - I learned a few lessons though, even one that I already knew, just never practiced:

1) I am the PIC. I knew something was weird about the command to cross the airport, but I did it anyway. The correct response should have been "Do you want me to cross your final" or something to be perfectly clear.
2) Controllers are human too. I don't know exactly how this mistake happened, but it did, so I know it can happen.
3) Asking for tapes to be marked could be an excellent way to discuss a potential problem between the controller and a pilot. It worked in this case.

What say y'all?
Click to expand...
 
File a NASA ASRS. And I wonder if maybe the "other" aircraft had a similar N number. THAT has happened to me.
 
File the ASRS - as a data point as much as a CYA.

Then go read your post again, and spot that you used two different tail numbers...

32492 and 32496.

And with any luck ATC will call you back and say there were two airplanes with similar tail numbers.
 
Nick,

What do you mean by "mark the tapes"? Obviously you want to have them available so you can listen to the communication exchange but what does the term "mark" mean?
 
I think it means that they get marked "do not erase", as they do get recycled. Now, once the review takes place, since there's (so far) no deviation report on the incident they'll go back in the stack.

I wonder what happens if the controller does find that she made the mistake and used the wrong call sign, or didn't recognize there were two "--492" airplanes? Is there a formal investigation at that point or does it remain informal?
 
TMetzinger said:
I think it means that they get marked "do not erase", as they do get recycled. Now, once the review takes place, since there's (so far) no deviation report on the incident they'll go back in the stack.

I wonder what happens if the controller does find that she made the mistake and used the wrong call sign, or didn't recognize there were two "--492" airplanes? Is there a formal investigation at that point or does it remain informal?
Click to expand...

Sounds like it's going nowhere. Nothing happened. The NASA form is a good idea, regardless.

The way I see it, two reasonable parties spoke, figured out the situation, left it at that. Too bad more conflicts aren't solved that way.
 
Is it possible for me to get a copy of those tapes?
 
Well done, Nick. Keeping your temper in check when making that call was probably particularly useful in resolving the situation. And putting a copy of your post in a NASA ASRS report should be helpful in preparing others for a similar situation.
 
I'l add another "Ya done good, Nick."

Imagine if the SWA jet reported or they had a deal. It would have been another reckless flib pilot until the truth came out in 18 months.
 
SkyHog said:
2) Controllers are human too. I don't know exactly how this mistake happened, but it did, so I know it can happen.
Click to expand...
I think this is an excellent thing for pilots to remember and it goes along with your number (1) about questioning instructions which don't seem logical to you. In addition, there are a lot more controller trainees these days than there have been in the past. Remember that they have a learning curve too.
 
RMCN172RG said:
is the airport on liveatc.net :D

if so you can just download it:yikes:
Click to expand...

Unfortunately, ABQ is not on liveatc.

I want to review it to see if I did something wrong, but I don't want ATC to freak out. Can I nicely ask for a copy of it without them immediately filing something if I made a mistake?
 
Nick. Glad you didn't say something like..... "Numba? Numba??? I gotcha numba right hea!"



:smilewinkgrin:
 
Ron Levy said:
Well done, Nick. Keeping your temper in check when making that call was probably particularly useful in resolving the situation. And putting a copy of your post in a NASA ASRS report should be helpful in preparing others for a similar situation.
Click to expand...

I agree. You catch more flies with honey than with vinegar (at least that's the way I think it goes). He learned more by being reasonable than he would have learned by being belligerent.

Bob Gardner
 
I'm guess'n she was hot and he was look'n.........:smilewinkgrin:

I see it as she mess'd up and you did what I would have done...........but now ya know if it happens again ya say......"are you kidd'n me"? "That 747 is bigger than me come'n in final!" :rofl:

It was a good lesson for many of us and I appreciate ya post'n it. Don't want to joke about a serious "occasion"(?), but glad all is ok. Just be glad it wasn't a computer do'n her job.........who knows where you'd be.:smilewinkgrin:
 
roncachamp said:
She said she'd "pull the tapes and listen to them." You'd have probably been allowed to listen as well had you asked.
Click to expand...

Ok I have to ask.... If she can pull the tapes and listen why did you say he "probably" could ???? He should have the exact same access to them as the controller does...:nonod:
 
N801BH said:
Ok I have to ask.... If she can pull the tapes and listen why did you say he "probably" could ????
Click to expand...

Because if he had made the request it probably would have been granted, it's not a certainty.

He should have the exact same access to them as the controller does...:nonod:
Click to expand...

He should be issued a key to the tower?
 
roncachamp said:
Because if he had made the request it probably would have been granted, it's not a certainty.



He should be issued a key to the tower?
Click to expand...


I can be a smart @#s too... Is it a certainty she can listen to them ??? A straight YES or NO will work.....:rolleyes:
 
N801BH said:
I can be a smart @#s too... Is it a certainty she can listen to them ??? A straight YES or NO will work.....:rolleyes:
Click to expand...

It's typical of his posts. I'm not justifying that which can't be justified, but letting you know the M.O..
 
N801BH said:
I can be a smart @#s too... Is it a certainty she can listen to them ??? A straight YES or NO will work.....:rolleyes:
Click to expand...

Is it a certainty that a controller can listen to the tapes? YES. Of course it is. Why would you think otherwise?
 
File a NASA Form for your own protection.

I filed one in April online and still don't have my receipt back in the postal mail for it.
Maybe I should call and ask what happend.
 
TMetzinger said:
I think it means that they get marked "do not erase", as they do get recycled. Now, once the review takes place, since there's (so far) no deviation report on the incident they'll go back in the stack.

I wonder what happens if the controller does find that she made the mistake and used the wrong call sign, or didn't recognize there were two "--492" airplanes? Is there a formal investigation at that point or does it remain informal?
Click to expand...

The controllers supervisor and the training staff will listen to them too.
It could remain informal. But if the controller gets her dander up at being called to question.. it could go formal.
 
Thank you sir for the answer... Hope this turns out ok for the original poster.

Tailwinds
Ben.
 
I had that phone call from the tower last April when I deadsticked it back to the runway after departure. I had just reached pattern altitude when I had no fuel flow to the engine and I called tower and told him I was "returning". He gave me the other runway opposite the flow of traffic.

After it was all over, I had enough power to taxi in, but full power and the engine died in about 20 seconds. "Call the tower", he just wanted to make sure all was ok and because I had landed safely on the runway with no problems, he just needed to finish his "emergency action" report.

I filed a NASA form anyway. From last April, it took until yesterday to get my receipt mailed back.
 
Nick, you probably still have her number. Call her up and say that you're following up and ask what she found on review. If you still have questions, ask her how to go about getting a copy of the "tape". (Actually, they're digital now, but...) I think that Eric's right about probably needing a FOIA request. If so, that's not them being difficult; it's just the legal process required. (If you don't need it, I'd be interested in knowing that!)

And yes, file an ASRS report on this. Remember, the primary purpose is to do precisely what you're trying to do with that phone call. Find ways to make the system better. Even when you aren't at risk of being violated!

(Missed you at Gaston's, but hope to see you at 6Y9!)
 
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