Is General Aviation Dying in the USA?

[wabower]

My only point was to agree with Jay that the specific set of conditions in which one could actually make the case that the only discriminator in order to launch or not launch is the ability to fly in-clouds, is very very limited. More often than not, these WX particulars simply make single engine piston flight cumbersome if not unsafe for what is being attempted at accomplishing (recreational flight).

So in your mind, the only categories for use of a GA airplane are business and recreational? Should everyone who uses their plane for personal travel just pack it up and go to the house?

In any event, both you and Jay are wrong about the utility and usage of IFR capabilities. Having flown GA piston airplanes over a high percentage of the country for many years and nearly 10,000 hours, I know for a fact that the number of days in which IFR capability was either necessary or reassuring (not sure about the wx, maybe VFR, maybe MVFR, maybe IFR for all or part of the trip) is significant. None of those days included "scary" weather, but were just days when the weather wasn't CAVU.

Most of those days didn't include icing or convective, and consisted of punching through a low layer of a few thousand feet or less (on climbout or descent) or shooting an approach to get below a ceiling that is much higher than minimums. None of these tasks are particularly dangerous or daunting, but are easily achieveable by an IR pilot but difficult (and perhaps even forbidden) by a VFR pilot.

Which puts the VFR-only pilots not far behind the IR folks when the day is done. Put simply, you ain't flying thru that squall line, overflying it or outrunning it...and that windshear ahead and behind it? Your wife is gonna nag u all the way to the destination for not waiting the extra 4 hours. And that's the south.

When you immediately default to thunderstorms and severe icing as your "discriminator for flying in clouds" you are ignoring the majority of weather conditions for which IFR capability is most useful. I agree that there are some days like that, when there's no question about whether a trip can be completed, and there's no reason to even go sit at the airport hoping it will happen. The fact is, however, that there a lot more days when the weather precludes VFR but is imminently flyable with IFR capabilities.

It's also interesting to note (if you've actually seen it first-hand) that on the days when "ain't nobody flying GA" that the same limitation often applies to airline schedules as well.

During the time I flew frequently for business or personal travel, I (initially) thought that the airlines would serve as a backup when the weather exceeded my capabilities. I quickly learned that they were not much better at making schedule on those days than I was, even though their equipment was clearly much better-equipped to handle it. I also found that if we were waiting for a line of thunderstorms to pass, I could often launch much more quickly because the airports that I used didn't have 40 departures lined up ahead of me.


New England or perma overcast Midwest with that nice little sprinkling of embedded rime ice in-cloud? Yeah, makes me all giddy just thinking about leaving those VFR fools in the dust as I file away in my 800 fpm climb contraption.

Yeah, those thousand foot layers of winter clouds across the midwest are deadly adversaries. Sometimes it takes almost a minute to climb or descend through them. And there's usually no ice in them anyway, although the forecasters have warned that it will cover you up like a cheap suit.

In short, IR ticket doesn't by you much time in the single engine piston class. I even go back to my days as an IR student. Frankly, the only time instrument actual was accomplished was in the most benign IMC you could encounter. Morning low cloud overcast in the summer, where no icing or convective was associated with said low cielings. By mid morning the crap was broken up enough to make the VFR yahoos rocket away through the holes, and by mid afternoon ALL the bugsmashers regardless of flight plan are racing home to avoid the convective stuff that will flip that smile upside down until all your CFI-ATP-MEL tickets fall out of your pocket by attempting to airline your way around in a single piston of any size.

That's as good a job of exaggeration, oversimplification and misstatement of facts as anybody has done on this thread.

So yeah, I stand by my assertion that in aggregate, we're talking a couple hours tops, for what a single engine piston can accomplish blasting VFR vs blasting IFR in same aircraft. The sheer thought of accomplishing a STAR on a CAT A aircraft just makes me wanna drive. LOL

And you're just as wrong now as you were on the first post.

Most aircraft owners I know are not instrument rated. go figure. They sure got the money for that Sr-20 though, and yes they're almost exlusively over 45 years of age. And yes it is the internet, of course I'm generalizing...

So your cut-off for "the older guys" starts at 45? How old are you? How much actual experience have you accumulated in using GA airplanes for travel?

Look, if the training was free, a la GI Bill, then yeah everybody go for that ATP. Alas my generation wasn't that lucky, we're late to the party, so cost matters.

Late to what party? The GI bill obviously helped pay for some training, but many people (including all the pilots that I knew at the time) paid for their own. Suggesting that my generation got a free lunch might not be a good idea if/when you show up at the airport and look to see whose hangar doors are actually open.

I still think a guy who is never going to upgrade to turbine equipment and who merely wants to share recreational flying with his family and friends, could stretch his buck much much better by having recurrent under the hood training and still gain the same level of instrument cross-check (safety) an instrument rated pilot does, sans the added cost for demonstrating proficiency in approach and NAS navigation procedures.

And by so-doing, be certain that he will miss numerous opportunities to complete trips comfortably and on schedule.

That was all.

Like most grasshoppers, you've still got a lot to learn. :wink2:

 

[barnstorm]

Only time will tell, but I do know that if the current crops of pilots are willing to be proactive, and reach out to the general public, to educate them on general aviation and to offer flights to get them hook, then maybe everything will be ok.
Thoughts?

It might help if pilots learned how to talk to non pilots about flying. My admittedly limited experience shows that a lot of pilots are really bad at this.

When I wanted to learn to fly, I asked several pilots about it. It took a while to find one who would/could explain the requirements. (I guess unless you're a CFI or recently finished your private, you wouldn't have any reason to remember these.)....

I recently heard someone explaining the requirements to get certified to some people who were interested in flying. Apart from being wrong, it was completely imcomprehensible to anyone who wasn't already a pilot.

Each one of those is a case where a potential pilot is given a reason to say, 'i think i'll pass on the whole flying thing'. And I could keep going with examples. A lot of us are just poor ambassadors to the flying world.

Outreach will increase the size of the current pool of pilots, and dispel some of the general public's misconception about general aviation, like it's just rich boys and their rich toys, or that small airplanes are more dangerous than airliners. It's about education.

However, you are correct that something needs to be done to bring down the cost of flying, and your suggestion may fit the bill.

I agree completely!

I have been trying for some time to be a 'good ambassador' to the rest of the world. That is why I wrote a book about how to become a pilot on a middle-income budget.

I did not write the book to make money but rather to make pilots!

The answer: Make it easier to get a Pilot Certificate.

1. Take away some of stupid requirements like steep turns and turns about a point.
2. Reintroduce spins.
3. Remove anything from the Private Pilot PTS that doesn't involve the basic requirements for getting from point A to point B safely.
4. Not many private pilots are going to be doing photo shoots, or aerobatics, or even towing, so leave any of that stuff off the private, and leave it for the commercial ticket.

Doesn't Sport Pilot do this? (except the spin part, I am not addressing that, others have posted comments on this that reflect my own)

You suggested that pilots some STOP saying that "Private Pilots are not real pilots unless they are IFR rated.."

I would suggest changing this to stop the culture that is saying Sport Pilots are not real pilots until they get a Private rating.

My wife is a better pilot than many Private pilots I know and she has no interest in getting a private ticket because she has no interest in flying at night or flying larger craft then her Skyboy or a Cub.

I can tell you for a FACT she would not have gotten her license if Private was the only ticket available because she would have to take too much training that she was not interested in (night, night cc, ins, etc).

What I see is that the guys in their early 20s who would want to fly can't afford it and the folks who can aford it already own a boat to take care of their discretionary income.

My boat cost me more $$ then flying does. Many people move from one expensive hobby to another. Why not bring aviation BACK into this mix!?

Lots of people think you have to be a millionaire to fly even a small aircraft. If they knew that LIGHT aviation is in the same cost range as boats, RVs, Horses and other high time/ high $ hobbies we would have many more aviators. IMHO.

.

Of the people I know who expressed any interest in flying, not one said any particular FBO or airport stopped them. It's pretty much the time required and the cost of training that stops them.

Sport pilot. My wife can rent a Cub at $58 (including fuel) from Red Stewart airport and have a CFI turn it into an hour lesson for an additional $35/hr.

Affordable lessons and affordable flying.

The LSA concept has become ridiculous-like over 125K to buy a new cub? The existing fleet is aging, new aircraft are priced out of the range of most people, LSA is an overpriced joke,......

You are missing the big picture.

The "LSA's are 100K so sport pilot is crap" is a wrong and damaging paradigm.

What if I said "New cars are all $25K-45K" The world is going to stop driving cars, drivers licenses are going to die" who would believe.

If everyone is the US had only NEW CARS to buy, few people could afford to drive!

After the 100K aircraft have been on the market for 3-5-10 years they will now be the affordable LSA market we need.

There ARE good $25-40K aircraft but you have to do some research because these companies are not spending bank on full page advertising in AOPA magazines.

We have to give the USED MARKET time to develop! and production costs of new designs and start-up costs of new companies to stabilize.

Really? There are plenty of nicely restored Chiefs and Champs running 20-30k right now.

Excellent point!

.

 

[steingar]

I have been trying for some time to be a 'good ambassador' to the rest of the world. That is why I wrote a book about how to become a pilot on a middle-income budget.

Actually, so did I. And mine allows you to do it even cheaper, since all the airplanes are made out of paper.

Welcome to POA. You should let me know when you're going to fly up to TZR for some barbecue.

 

[barnstorm]

Actually, so did I. And mine allows you to do it even cheaper, since all the airplanes are made out of paper.

Welcome to POA. You should let me know when you're going to fly up to TZR for some barbecue.

That is great!

I have purchased several paper airplane book. What is yours called?

Thanks!

Bolton Field? You are not too far away. I fly into Newark (KVTA) a few times a year.

Likewise, let me know if you are coming down for dogs at Sportys!

.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Maybe once I get my IR and feel more confident about launching, I'll realize that I could have "pushed my VFR envelope" a little more. Still, it's one thing to "push the VFR envelope" when you've got the IR trump card in your pocket. Without it, I'm gonna continue to sit on the ground a lot more than I want to.

That's the thing - It's quite possible to get places VFR, but there's a lot of attempts that I wouldn't have made without having the IFR option. So while I don't consider it "necessary" by any means, it sure is nice, and lets me leave on more trips and generally complete them on time too... So I encourage those who want to travel via GA to get the IR.

Edit: BTW, you'll always have someone asking if you have X or Y rating. When I got my Private, people asked if I was instrument rated. Once I started being able to answer that in the affirmative, they started asking if I had my multi-engine/commercial/etc rating... And now that those are yeses, people ask if I have my "jet rating." That's when I get to tell them about type ratings... So, don't be overly offended if you have to answer "No" to the instrument rating question. It's just a silly game - Kinda like "Can you juggle one MORE?"

 

[Jim Logajan]

My very quick and dirty research yields the following:

• Median salary in 1960 was $5,600.
• A new Cessna 150 in 1960: $6,995.
• Median salary in 2010 was $39,336.

From those statistics, why don't we have any $49,000 two seaters in 2011? To me, that would be a reasonable cost.

So how about a new two seater for $59,995?

http://www.x-airlsa.com/index.php

Or $46,995 and ~250 hours of labor for a new airplane like this:

http://www.skykits.com/Kit_Pricing.html

 

[Tarheel Pilot]

So how about a new two seater for $59,995?

http://www.x-airlsa.com/index.php

Or $46,995 and ~250 hours of labor for a new airplane like this:

http://www.skykits.com/Kit_Pricing.html

Don't forget other LSA kits like the RV-12, and even the good ol' Zenith 601.

 

[steingar]

Don't forget other LSA kits like the RV-12, and even the good ol' Zenith 601.

When you bought a new Cessna in 1950, there was no assembly required.

 

[Challenged]

I do appreciate you pointing out the X-Air LS, as I wasn't familiar with it, it looks like a neat airplane. That said, for the same money in 1960 you could get a certified two seater that was all metal construction with 15 more horsepower and held 11 gallons more in fuel. It seems that in the 51 years since then we would have made serious advancements in aviation technology, but (unless I'm missing something) we actually get less for our money today that we did 51 years ago.

 

[Tarheel Pilot]

I do appreciate you pointing out the X-Air LS, as I wasn't familiar with it, it looks like a neat airplane. That said, for the same money in 1960 you could get a certified two seater that was all metal construction with 15 more horsepower and held 11 gallons more in fuel. It seems that in the 51 years since then we would have made serious advancements in aviation technology, but (unless I'm missing something) we actually get less for our money today that we did 51 years ago.

You can thank insurance and certification of parts for that.

 

[Anthony]

There are differences between flying and other hobbies. In general, boating is relaxing and fun, motorcycle riding is relaxing and fun. Driving a sports car or travelling in an RV is relaxing and fun.

Responsible flying is typically not just relaxing and fun. Yes, there are times when one can relax, enjoy the view, sounds, etc, and just fly, but in general we are trained to be paranoid, running through scenarios, in which to react, thinking ahead, and keep us an our passengers safe. Its a lot of work, and many of us do enjoy that work, but for many its just plain work.

General Aviation may not be dieing, but private, travel and recreation through personal flying is dieing.

 

[Bob Noel]

There are differences between flying and other hobbies. In general, boating is relaxing and fun, motorcycle riding is relaxing and fun. Driving a sports car or travelling in an RV is relaxing and fun.

Responsible flying is typically not just relaxing and fun. Yes, there are times when one can relax, enjoy the view, sounds, etc, and just fly, but in general we are trained to be paranoid, running through scenarios, in which to react, thinking ahead, and keep us an our passengers safe. Its a lot of work, and many of us do enjoy that work, but for many its just plain work.

General Aviation may not be dieing, but private, travel and recreation through personal flying is dieing.

Riding a motorcycle is no more relaxing and fun than flying....at least here in Massachusetts where you must be on the lookout for the drivers trying to kill you on the road or even in parking lots, or the potholes in the crumbling streets trying to dump you,...

 

[Anthony]

Riding a motorcycle is no more relaxing and fun than flying....at least here in Massachusetts where you must be on the lookout for the drivers trying to kill you on the road or even in parking lots, or the potholes in the crumbling streets trying to dump you,...

I owned and road motorcylces from the age of 9 until I started flying in my mid 30's. You can select where you ride a bike and that can be empty country roads with no traffic and little risk. If you choose I-95 or the Schuyllkill Expressway, different story.

Motorcycles are also a lot cheaper and a lot more fun quotient for the money than flying. Yes, they are just as dangerous statistically as GA, but again you can choose where you ride and how much risk you are willing to take.

 

[dmccormack]

Motorcycles are also a lot cheaper and a lot more fun quotient for the money than flying. Yes, they are just as dangerous statistically as GA, but again you can choose where you ride and how much risk you are willing to take.

Very true. During my 5 year break from flying riding two wheeled things kept me busy.

 

[Bob Noel]

I owned and road motorcylces from the age of 9 until I started flying in my mid 30's. You can select where you ride a bike and that can be empty country roads with no traffic and little risk. If you choose I-95 or the Schuyllkill Expressway, different story.

Motorcycles are also a lot cheaper and a lot more fun quotient for the money than flying. Yes, they are just as dangerous statistically as GA, but again you can choose where you ride and how much risk you are willing to take.

Maybe motorcycles were/are more fun than flying for you. For me, flying is waaaaaaay more fun than riding my motorcycle. If I had to chose, my money goes to flying before riding the motorcycle.

Unless I trailer the motorcycle to a riding location, there isn't much choice in the roads I use (but certainly I avoid the worse roads like 128).

When I was taking the MSF basic safety course, a few of us students had never ridden a motorcycle before. After the first laps around the course in the very beginning one woman exclaimed that she was absolutely hooked. This kind of mirrored my reaction when I was first taken for an airplane ride in a Cherokee Arrow. My reaction about riding the motorcycle? It's ok, but pales to the joy of flying.

 

[Jay Honeck]

Maybe motorcycles were/are more fun than flying for you. For me, flying is waaaaaaay more fun than riding my motorcycle. If I had to chose, my money goes to flying before riding the motorcycle.

Unless I trailer the motorcycle to a riding location, there isn't much choice in the roads I use (but certainly I avoid the worse roads like 128).

When I was taking the MSF basic safety course, a few of us students had never ridden a motorcycle before. After the first laps around the course in the very beginning one woman exclaimed that she was absolutely hooked. This kind of mirrored my reaction when I was first taken for an airplane ride in a Cherokee Arrow. My reaction about riding the motorcycle? It's ok, but pales to the joy of flying.

I agree. Although I love my new GSX650F (yep, an old man on a sport bike), and I ride every day (another advantage of the sunbelt), flying is still way better.

As for "relaxing", I don't really do either activity to relax; I do them to feel alive.

 

[steingar]

The GSXR is the Suzi sportbike. Yours is certainly sporty though. I imagine it's way more comfortable too.

Its funny, the first time I rode a bike I was utterly hooked. The first time I flew an aircraft was utterly petrified.

Oh, and don't let all that hot weather keep you from wearing your gear. Save your life, it can. Too hot for gear, too hot to ride.

 

[Anthony]

As for "relaxing", I don't really do either activity to relax; I do them to feel alive.

Unless you are doing aerobatics, your droning along in a spam can. Yeah, that's a reall thrill.

 

[Bob Noel]

Oh, and don't let all that hot weather keep you from wearing your gear. Save your life, it can. Too hot for gear, too hot to ride.

This is one of the very times I'll pull an AOL and post a +1 to that.

I never ever ride without PPE of appropriate helmet, gloves, boots, and jacket. No exceptions, no excuses.

 

[jesse]

The answer: Make it easier to get a Pilot Certificate.

1. Take away some of stupid requirements like steep turns and turns about a point.
2. Reintroduce spins.
3. Remove anything from the Private Pilot PTS that doesn't involve the basic requirements for getting from point A to point B safely.
4. Not many private pilots are going to be doing photo shoots, or aerobatics, or even towing, so leave any of that stuff off the private, and leave it for the commercial ticket.

The commercial ticket is too easy to obtain, the private is too hard. Even it up a little and may err on the side of making the private too easy. That would boost our completion rate.

Try being an instructor, start with a student from day one, preferably one that is average or below average. Then tell me that becoming a private pilot is too hard and we should remove all of those things you suggested be removed. The items are there for a reason. They are great building blocks. You *need* those building blocks or they don't have a chance at accomplishing an entire flight on their own.

Teaching some people how to fly is a hell of a challenge, it's not as "easy" as its sounds.

 

[Ted]

Wayne's dead on with IFR. I don't have 10,000 hours, but as of last night, I've accumulated 1275 in 3.5 years, about 1100 of which is XC. Typically going several states over. I've only got 5 hours in turbines, the rest is in piston singles and twins (mostly twins).

The IFR is about getting where you're going on a schedule. My reliability is better than the airlines, just as I assume Wayne's is. The people who don't see this advantage either 1) don't have to get somewhere on a schedule (envyable...) or 2) are just trying to come up with reasons not to get it. I don't care if someone wishes to remain a VFR pilot, but accept the limitations. Most people are surprised to realize that most IFR days would be difficult or impossible VFR, but are very simple IFR. It's not about flying through severe icing or thunderstorms.

The private pilot rating isn't too hard, and pilots are the friendliest, nicest people I know on the whole. I've only met a very small number who are elitist. The rest are encouraging everyone they come across to learn. People don't have the money, plain and simple - or else they just don't have a need for it. Driving is easier. You can always cover your eyes, slam on the brakes, and you'll come to a stop, probably in one piece (and many people do that). Try doing that in an airplane. Cruise is easier, sure. That pesky business of getting off the ground and back on, however, is less so, and that is significantly less forgiving than a curb.

 

[barnstorm]

It seems to me that a lot of people seem to be talking past each other in this discussion.

Some seem to think GA is for transportation

Some seem to think GA is for Fun

Some seem to think GA is for learning to fly and build hours for an ATP job.

I think GA is all of this and more.

I don't think GA is dead but I do think that the various facets of aviation (Gliders, Gyros, Heli's, Small FW, Large FW, Ultralights, PPCs, Trikes, Builders, Pilots, Warbirds, Vintage) all need to stop ISOLATING themselves.

GA has to work together, divided I think we could fail.

Now days when I take a non-pilot to an airport it is NOT a warm welcoming experience for them. Many flight schools still don't understand the importance of Sport Pilot and the flight training drop out rate is mind boggling.

How do we get the current class of all GA pilots to realize we need an attitude adjustment?

.

 

[zaitcev]

I agree. Although I love my new GSX650F (yep, an old man on a sport bike), and I ride every day (another advantage of the sunbelt), flying is still way better.

I'm much lazier, I just take the hardtop off my jeep and explore some canyons or ruins in 2-3 hour drive radius. A bike seems much too bothersome... I mean, I am supposed to shift gears with my foot? Wow. Also, jeep can carry my guns and camping equipment quite far (actually it's better than rental airplanes in this regard, especially since my FBO prohibits me from landing at gravel strips).

 

[steingar]

I'm much lazier, I just take the hardtop off my jeep and explore some canyons or ruins in 2-3 hour drive radius. A bike seems much too bothersome... I mean, I am supposed to shift gears with my foot? Wow. Also, jeep can carry my guns and camping equipment quite far (actually it's better than rental airplanes in this regard, especially since my FBO prohibits me from landing at gravel strips).

Sportbike lets you take the same canyon roads at twice the speed. FUN. Dirt bike lets you get off the road to where the stuff really is. Duro bike lets you do both. Set it up right you can still take your crap.

 

[EdFred]

Sportbike lets you take the same canyon roads at twice the speed. FUN. Dirt bike lets you get off the road to where the stuff really is. Duro bike lets you do both. Set it up right you can still take your crap.

But it's hard to get a set of twins on a sport bike.

 

[Everskyward]

I'm much lazier, I just take the hardtop off my jeep and explore some canyons or ruins in 2-3 hour drive radius. A bike seems much too bothersome... I mean, I am supposed to shift gears with my foot? Wow. Also, jeep can carry my guns and camping equipment quite far (actually it's better than rental airplanes in this regard, especially since my FBO prohibits me from landing at gravel strips).

I rode a motorcycle when I was younger but got too lazy. You need all these special clothes plus you can't really carry very much. I just like to be able to hop into my car and drive away. I think I also got to the point that riding or driving around aimlessly to explore was not as entertaining to me as it was in the past.

As far as aviation goes, during all those years I flew small airplanes for work I had no desire to jump into another small airplane on my day off, especially if it was going to cost me something. Now that it has been 10+ years since I have moved on to bigger airplanes I find that riding in other people's small airplanes is entertaining in a nostalgic way as well as being a social activity. But I think the only way I would go out and rent a small airplane myself would be to do aerobatics, which I tried for awhile.

 

[steingar]

But it's hard to get a set of twins on a sport bike.

Hard for you maybe...

 

[Tarheel Pilot]

It seems to me that a lot of people seem to be talking past each other in this discussion.

Some seem to think GA is for transportation

Some seem to think GA is for Fun

Some seem to think GA is for learning to fly and build hours for an ATP job.

I think GA is all of this and more.

I don't think GA is dead but I do think that the various facets of aviation (Gliders, Gyros, Heli's, Small FW, Large FW, Ultralights, PPCs, Trikes, Builders, Pilots, Warbirds, Vintage) all need to stop ISOLATING themselves.

GA has to work together, divided I think we could fail.

Now days when I take a non-pilot to an airport it is NOT a warm welcoming experience for them. Many flight schools still don't understand the importance of Sport Pilot and the flight training drop out rate is mind boggling.

How do we get the current class of all GA pilots to realize we need an attitude adjustment?

.

I agree with this 100%.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Most people are surprised to realize that most IFR days would be difficult or impossible VFR, but are very simple IFR. It's not about flying through severe icing or thunderstorms.

Ted is right on.

I just decided to take a look at my logbook to see how "difficult" it was.

900 hours into this aviation thing, I've had a total of 61 of 481 flights where I encountered actual IMC, so about one in eight flights.

40 of those 61 flights, the time spent in actual was 0.5 or less - Generally just climbing up out of the muck, cruising on top, and shooting an approach to landing - Or not. Excepting training flights, I've only shot 5 approaches in those 40 flights.

On only three occasions (excepting training/proficiency flights) have I even been in IMC for more than half of the trip. I almost always cruise on top.

As for thunderstorms: I don't mess with 'em. I generally don't have much in the way of weather avoidance gear (With the exception of the 6 months in 2008 where I rented a Garmin 496, and the last 7 months since we bought the DA40), so XM datalink is about all I've ever had. I've flown one plane with onboard radar (no actual) and I've never been in actual in plane with a stormscope either. But, it hasn't been too hard to avoid T-storms anyway. My only encounter has been with an "upwardly mobile cumulus" similar to what Ken Ibold described in his book, "Defying Gravity."

As for ice: I've picked it up 5 times in those 61 flights. Always trace or light, executed an out, and it's never lasted long after that (either sublimating or flying off). But, what's interesting is this - I've never picked up ice in December. I have picked up ice in August. I've seen sub-freezing temperatures over Texas in July. It's not strictly a winter thing. So, be prepared, have your outs, and use them when needed. But I fly IMC all year long in the Great Lakes region, and while ice certainly causes a fair number of flight cancellations, mostly around November and March, and it stops only a small minority of my flights.

There is a TON of benign IMC here in the Midwest. I'm not sure of the number of IMC days we have here per year, but 60-100 wouldn't surprise me. The number that aren't flyable, even in a small single-engine airplane, is only about a third of that at most, I would guess.

Bottom line: The IR is very useful, even if you don't fly FIKI/twins/turbines/etc. It takes those OVC010 days with tops at 3,000 and turns them from a drag into a "let's go somewhere" opportunity. If you don't want to get it, fine - But don't pretend it's not useful.

 

[wabower]

I don't think owners and pilots view aviation as a community project any more than I care about the scores posted by the players in the foursomes ahead or behind me at the golf course, or what brand of clubs they play. I'm there to do what I want to do, and assume they're doing the same. We chat and exchange pleasantries and occasional handshakes, but that's about it.

That's true at the airport too, and I assume everybody else feels the same. I've been going to both the airport and the golf course since the early 50's, and don't see any big change in attitude at either place. Nobody has ever met me at the curb with a hot cup of coffee at the airport, and I don't detect any major change in attitude at the rental counters over the years. The new fences, gates, badges, security cameras and all that crap are different at the big airports, but other than some new hangars, Elk City, OK, looks about like it did before Elvis came along.

There's probably more sense of community at OSH and other GA events than anywhere else, and the various elements seem to be cordial and all that, but they go back to their group at the campground each night because they have more in common with those folks. I don't think of that as isolationism, elitism or any other -ism, or any type of attitude that requires adjustment. It's just one more example of birds of a feather.



QUOTE=barnstorm;709674]It seems to me that a lot of people seem to be talking past each other in this discussion.

Some seem to think GA is for transportation

Some seem to think GA is for Fun

Some seem to think GA is for learning to fly and build hours for an ATP job.

I think GA is all of this and more.

I don't think GA is dead but I do think that the various facets of aviation (Gliders, Gyros, Heli's, Small FW, Large FW, Ultralights, PPCs, Trikes, Builders, Pilots, Warbirds, Vintage) all need to stop ISOLATING themselves.

GA has to work together, divided I think we could fail.

Now days when I take a non-pilot to an airport it is NOT a warm welcoming experience for them. Many flight schools still don't understand the importance of Sport Pilot and the flight training drop out rate is mind boggling.

How do we get the current class of all GA pilots to realize we need an attitude adjustment?

.[/QUOTE]

 

[rottydaddy]

A lot of food for thought here, but I still think that the financial difficulty of every pursuit nowadays- for example: housing, feeding, and clothing a family without working 20 hrs a day 7 days a week- has affected growth of "private flying" the most in recent years, among all other factors. It's not just the cost of planes, or fuel, or hangars, or insurance. It's the cost of everything, in time, effort and money.

But there's something else, and it's not elitism, or polarization of pilot groups, or the effect of media coverage of GA on public opinion, or a lack of outreach. It's been touched on in this thread, but I have my own two cents' worth to add, because the more I think about it, the more sense it makes. It's a serious threat.

What I'm talking about is the decline and fall of doing something because it's challenging; of taking simple pleasure of working hard and persisting in order to acquire a skill that may have no tangible value, but has rewards that (and I risk sounding elitist here; sorry) only pilots really appreciate.


I think people willing to do what it takes have always been special (or let's say "different") people... sure, it used to be easier and cheaper to get into it, but there also used to be more people with that inclination, IMHO. I mean, look around you... it's filtered into every aspect of life, including the most basic scholastic skills or just simply being able to shut up and pay attention. Sometimes I get the feeling that when I am truly old, some kid will be astonished that I learned to navigate without GPS or an autopilot, or that I didn't learn to fly by just taking a pill. "We do these things not because they are easy but because they are hard" has devolved into "Gimme gimme gimme; I pay later, no problem; gimme".

I'm not sure if making planes easier to fly or "dumbing down" the syllabus is the answer. It might lead to more people in the air, but that's not necessarily a good thing.

"Our kind of flying", with the freedom and satisfaction that is enjoyed by all GA pilots... from those who rely on fast, weather-capable pressurized birds for frequent travel or business to balloonists, and everybody in between, is definitely on the ropes, and it needs to adapt or die... but if flying somehow becomes as ubiquitous and as taken-for-granted as driving, it ain't gonna be our kind of flying anymore.

 

[denverpilot]

As far as aviation goes, during all those years I flew small airplanes for work I had no desire to jump into another small airplane on my day off, especially if it was going to cost me something. Now that it has been 10+ years since I have moved on to bigger airplanes I find that riding in other people's small airplanes is entertaining in a nostalgic way as well as being a social activity. But I think the only way I would go out and rent a small airplane myself would be to do aerobatics, which I tried for awhile.

Doing just about anything as a job is a great way to ruin it as your hobby.

 

[Doggtyred]

Doing just about anything as a job is a great way to ruin it as your hobby.

Valid point. I don't volunteer as a medic or firefighter anymore. I did for 10 years. But after a workweek the last thing I wanted to do is "do the same job for free"

 

[denverpilot]

Rottydaddy's closer, but still missing the mark a bit.

Saying that any "normal" person is willing to work long hours and extra days and then claiming that we pilots are more "extraordinary" than that because we'll tackle hard-to-accomplish things, is somewhat "elitist".

(I disagree totally with the whole "elitism" bent, but maybe there's some traction to it here in a different way... let me explain.)

They're tackling different priorities first, is all.

Compared to a few decades ago, typically there's two adults working full-time to accomplish those dreams, too.

I don't think the folks who struggle to get by on two paychecks are really any less persistent or extraordinary as pilots think we are.

I think a whole lot of micro-economic problems lead to an overall bigger macro-economic problem when one breadwinner is often not enough to raise a family.

The reason people show up for a few flight lessons and quit is that they convince themselves that they can afford to learn to fly. They then realize they can't commit to $400-$1000/month.

That same $400-$1000/month applied to any other hobby is pretty generous and you'd probably have a great time. At $400 even. $400 might be what it takes just to stay day/night current these days. Let alone actually traveling somewhere.

 

[flyersfan31]

I don't know how the WWII generation managed to instill this "Every man for himself!" attitude in its offspring, but it's a rare day when I see people (on a macro scale) doing the right thing because it's right. Thankfully, at the personal micro level, it's still possible to shun that sort, and surround yourself with good folks.

Because they were that way too. Why didn't our guys in Bastogne have galoshes? WHat did our GIs do to civilian property on their way through Europe? War profiteering anyone?

This greatest generation nonsense makes me sick.

And now, back to the thread.....

 

[ClimbnSink]

Because they were that way too. Why didn't our guys in Bastogne have galoshes? WHat did our GIs do to civilian property on their way through Europe? War profiteering anyone?

This greatest generation nonsense makes me sick.

And now, back to the thread.....

I hear canes and walkers clicking down the street they are coming for you, you can't say that stuff. Now go back to work to pay for the greatest generations 30 years of retirement keep your mouth shut and maybe they will forget this ever happened.

 

[barnstorm]

I don't think owners and pilots view aviation as a community project any more than I care about the scores posted by the players in the foursomes ahead or behind me at the golf course....

That's true at the airport too, and I assume everybody else feels the same. I've been going to both the airport and the golf course since the early 50's, and don't see any big change in attitude at either place. Nobody has ever met me at the curb with a hot cup of coffee at the airport, and I don't detect any major change in attitude at the rental counters over the years. The new fences, gates, badges, security cameras and all that crap are different at the big airports, but other than some new hangars, Elk City, OK, looks about like it did before Elvis came along.

....... I don't think of that as isolationism, elitism or any other -ism, or any type of attitude that requires adjustment. It's just one more example of birds of a feather.

From my experience and perspective you are both exactly right and tragically wrong.

You are right. There have been no changes to the airport since Elvis left EXCEPT the pilot population has been decimated.

You are wrong, we DO need an attitude adjustment and your post is a valid example.


I have 'walked' several people through from being non-pilots to pilots in the last several years, one of which was my wife and it was a BIG eye opener.

I teach computer network engineering and security for a living and I can tell you that we WELCOME and support our students as much as possible and are always looking for ways to improve customer service.

After EVERY single class my customers/students EVALUATE me with an anonymous survey and my JOB depends on the positive feedback of my students/customers as well as the jobs of everyone in my company.

My experience with the world of flight training has been the POLAR OPPOSITE.

Good paying students are not called back when they leave VMs with instructors and training providers.

Students are not provided with counselling and if they are it is based on the AGENDA OF THE TRAINING CENTER not of the student.

Instructors are rated on HOURS not performance of the students, graduation rates, customer service or any other aspect that is actually meaningful to the student.

I could go on but even though this is just the tip of the iceburg it shows my point.

Pilot Community.

I am a member of no less then a dozen EAA, PRA and TSPA pilot clubs and groups. They all have the same problems, issues and grips.

Not enough volunteers, not enough new people, no one to do the newsletter, no one to make new presentations, not one to do instruction.. blah blah...

If these clubs would simply collaborate many of these problems would be self-solving. When a local PRA chapter and a local Sport Pilot club started combining summer fly-ins BOTH clubs benfited and both clubs grew, had better events and attendance went through the roof!

The PRA invited a PPC org to share national convention time and location. What happened? MORE vendors, more vendors making more money, more training, more seminars, more events and the SCALE of economy made all aspects of the conventions cheaper for the attendees and made more proceeds for the orgs and supporting clubs and vendors.

Meanwhile the isolationist clubs continue to die of apathy and attrition. complaining all the way down.

I have seen the positive results of the altitude adjustment in pilot / airport groups ....and the continuing negative results of the "golf group" mentality you are supporting.

You might want to look into this, you might be surprised.



.

 

[gcd89]

The thing that summerizes the downturn in GA in two words is

"Gas Prices"

 

[barnstorm]

The thing that summerizes the downturn in GA in two words is

"Gas Prices"

My wifes 912ULS powered E-LSA gets 4gal/hr running mo-gas and is no more expensive annually to own and operate then a large displacement Harley which (around here) can only be driven in the summer.

.

 

[gcd89]

My wifes 912ULS powered E-LSA gets 4gal/hr running mo-gas and is no more expensive annually to own and operate then a large displacement Harley which (around here) can only be driven in the summer.

.

Yeah, but it ties into flight training. People learn on 152/72's and small stuff. Here gas is $8 which is driving prices of training up, especially on smaller schools.