Is General Aviation Dying in the USA?

There are lots of things coming together that will (IMHO) resurrect G.A. They include:

1. Automation. We've now got UAVs that safely fly themselves right back to the numbers. This technology will find its way into GA, eventually -- probably in the experimental category.

I don't follow - How is that going to resurrect GA? :dunno:

2. Government downsizing. It now appears inevitable that the U.S. government will be downsized, perhaps by as much as half. The only question remaining is whether it will happen systematically and logically, or abruptly, against our will.

Once THAT happens, much of the oppressive and silly regulations that have stifled pilot growth and aircraft certification for two generations will go away.

No, they won't - The people who would be able to re-write them to make more sense will go away. You don't think the government would just throw away regulations because they're downsizing, do you? Enforcement would be left up to the insurance companies instead of the FAA, but I don't think for a minute that a massive government downsizing would help us in any way.

3. Efficiency. Just since I learned to fly, airplanes have become MUCH more efficient. None of us ever believed a fixed-gear airplane could fly faster than a Bonanza -- but that's where we are now.

This drive for efficiency has been directed at increasing speed -- but with the price of fuel going up, IMHO this will be re-directed toward making airplanes cheaper to operate per hour. Light Sport aircraft are already flying at 5 GPH or less.

That will certainly help a lot. That's part of why the DA40 was such a good choice for the club - It is the most efficient fixed-gear 4+-seat certified airplane, so as fuel costs rise, our costs will rise slower than the "competition." In fact, even within the club... If fuel prices rise another $1.20/gal, the cost for the 2006 DA40 will be the same as the cost for the 1971 C182.

For even more efficiency - It was recently announced that there will be an STC'd supercharger available for the DA40 within 15 months. (The first one has been built, installed, and flight tested already.) That'll be pretty neat - 155-160 KTAS on ~8 gph up high? Sign me up! (Oh wait, I don't own the plane. Phooey.)
 
You and I must talk to different people. I get two common responses when people find out I'm a pilot:

1) "Isn't that dangerous?" This is fairly common, but it's not as common as the other one, which is

2) "Oh COOL! I've always wanted to do that!"
That's interesting because I don't usually get either one of those reactions.

I would say the number one follow-up question I hear is, "What made you decide to do that?" I'm pretty sure I get that question more than you do because I'm female. Too bad I don't have much of an answer. Then sometimes I hear, "My father, uncle, cousin, friend, etc. was/is a pilot but I have never been that interested." I can't recall many people lecturing me on the dangers. I had more people lecture me when I rode a motorcycle. Occasionally someone will say that they wished they could fly too but only in a vague sense. I don't hear very many people say they are unaware that it's an option available to them if they chose to act on it.
 
That's interesting because I don't usually get either one of those reactions.

Not sure, but maybe it's because I fly mostly single-engine pistons for fun and personal travel, while you fly jets professionally? People definitely think SEP is more dangerous than bizjets. Also, while most people have a desired career that is probably not being a bizjet pilot, doing it for fun and travel is something that doesn't require them to change the rest of their life.
 
It will be up to us to show the economic viability of small airports.

Or it will be up to us to fund the airports via user fees.

another thought on the lack of federal funding.
I know the insurance on the planes i fly prohibits landing at private airports. Not sure if this is true, but I was told this is because public airports have a higher standard for maintenance, whereas private ones (according to the insurer) are widely variable and generally of lower quality.
I'm wondering if the lack of federal funding will lead to a general reduction in the quality of the remaining airports, which in addition to the obvious problems, might that also lead insurance companies to either impose more restrictions, or raise premiums due to the high risk from poorly maintained fields?
 
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Not sure, but maybe it's because I fly mostly single-engine pistons for fun and personal travel, while you fly jets professionally? People definitely think SEP is more dangerous than bizjets. Also, while most people have a desired career that is probably not being a bizjet pilot, doing it for fun and travel is something that doesn't require them to change the rest of their life.
Actually, I get those reactions before I ever mention business jets. Tell someone you fly a business jet and you'll get that glazed-eye look because they don't know what you are talking about. It was even worse with mapping. When people (non-pilots) ask me if I fly for the airlines I tell them no, smaller airplanes, and I usually leave it at that.
 
Actually, I get those reactions before I ever mention business jets. Tell someone you fly a business jet and you'll get that glazed-eye look because they don't know what you are talking about. It was even worse with mapping. When people (non-pilots) ask me if I fly for the airlines I tell them no, smaller airplanes, and I usually leave it at that.

The first question I usually get is "What airline do you fly for?" And then I explain that I fly small airplanes for fun and personal travel... It's after I mention that I fly small, mostly single-engine airplanes that I get the two reactions I posted.
 
I think one of the changes that could be made to the PPL flight training is the introduction of GPS navigation into the syllabubs. I think VOR and GPS navigation should be taught above the NDB and ADF navigation.

There should also be a push for more fuel efficient engines. LSA aircrafts do get 5gph (or less), but that's because the engines usually have no higher HP than 100 or 120. There has to be a way to make 140hp and higher engines more fuel efficient.

Another thing we can learn from LSA is that there needs to be a push to reintroduce mogas to the majority of airports. 100LL fuel is more expensive than mogas is, most LSA pilots tend to ferry in their own mogas in tanks that they carry in their trucks. Maybe if mogas was reintroduce in airports en masses, there would be competition for the 100LL that'd lower the fuel price.

Speaking of fuel, sooner or later, an alternative fuel would have to be found, fuel that is readily available and can work with the aircraft engine. We can't rely on crude oil forever.

My 2 cents.
 
Speaking of fuel, sooner or later, an alternative fuel would have to be found, fuel that is readily available and can work with the aircraft engine. We can't rely on crude oil forever.


Searching for alternative energy sources is fine, however, we have plenty of fossil fuels to last generations. As the entire man made global climate change issue is being outed as a hoax, we should be able to contine its use without higher taxation. Lead on the other hand is an issue and we should strive for an economically viable, unleaded alternative.
 
Searching for alternative energy sources is fine, however, we have plenty of fossil fuels to last generations. As the entire man made global climate change issue is being outed as a hoax, we should be able to contine its use without higher taxation. Lead on the other hand is an issue and we should strive for an economically viable, unleaded alternative.

I'm not talking about climate change, I'm talking about the fact that we do have a finite crude oil resource.
 
I'm not talking about climate change, I'm talking about the fact that we do have a finite crude oil resource.

And not only a finite reserve in the ground...... but we have a finite extraction rate for the crude oil in the ground. Populations and economies (India and China) are growing faster than we can physically drill more wells (even if there WAS unlimited oil).

Demand is slowly outstripping supply.

If we can get the cars, transportation, and electric grid on alternative forms of energy......... we can save cheaper oil for use in areas that can't switch away from high density chemical energy.




And I don't want to argue the climate change thing for a 100th time......so Ill leave that one alone.
 
I'm not talking about climate change, I'm talking about the fact that we do have a finite crude oil resource.
Use all you want the earth will make more.
Stop blaming energy it is the hand of gov't that drives cost and hassle. Yeah GA isn't useful, my definition of vibrant GA is a flying machine(cub, c-172, ultralight, whatever) in every farm strip not joyless pseudo traveling machines on paved airports(paid for by other people.)
 
Use all you want the earth will make more.
Stop blaming energy it is the hand of gov't that drives cost and hassle. Yeah GA isn't useful, my definition of vibrant GA is a flying machine(cub, c-172, ultralight, whatever) in every farm strip not joyless pseudo traveling machines on paved airports(paid for by other people.)

Excellent points!

Interesting link -- I've heard that before about petroleum but never investigated it.
 
Well, you suggested:



You can upgrade from Sport to Private in WELL under 50 hours, and take more than one extra passenger. Sounds like you're making things more difficult, not less.

FWIW, I kind of agree with your suggestion in principle - I think that it can be done quite easily already via the Sport or Recreational pilot certificates, followed by the Private after a bit of time out in the real world on the Sport/Rec license. It's not a difficult upgrade, and by allowing a passenger earlier on in the process, it helps give the new pilot some extra motivation - It's kind of like a "solo plus passenger" status that lets them share the joy with a friend or family member.

I'm responding to this in the order in which it was read so if this is a duplicate response I apologize in advance.

The big difference in going from SP to PP is the need for at least a 3rd class medical. I'll speak only for me on this but IMHO SI in OKC is not a friend to GA. My 3rd class was denied due to chronic back issues. Back issues were resolved and, per direct statement from SI, the back doctor supplied a release letter. Fast forward 30 days and SI now wants me to jump through additional hoops at a cost of about $1k. Honestly it's not worth it to spend the add'l $1k with no guarantee just to fly for a $100 hamburger.
YMMV. My headset, GPS and other stuff are going up for sale this weekend and another capable and safe pilot is out of the ranks.
 
I'm responding to this in the order in which it was read so if this is a duplicate response I apologize in advance.

The big difference in going from SP to PP is the need for at least a 3rd class medical. I'll speak only for me on this but IMHO SI in OKC is not a friend to GA. My 3rd class was denied due to chronic back issues. Back issues were resolved and, per direct statement from SI, the back doctor supplied a release letter. Fast forward 30 days and SI now wants me to jump through additional hoops at a cost of about $1k. Honestly it's not worth it to spend the add'l $1k with no guarantee just to fly for a $100 hamburger.
YMMV. My headset, GPS and other stuff are going up for sale this weekend and another capable and safe pilot is out of the ranks.


That's a sad story -- sorry to hear that.

:(
 
I'm responding to this in the order in which it was read so if this is a duplicate response I apologize in advance.

The big difference in going from SP to PP is the need for at least a 3rd class medical. I'll speak only for me on this but IMHO SI in OKC is not a friend to GA. My 3rd class was denied due to chronic back issues. Back issues were resolved and, per direct statement from SI, the back doctor supplied a release letter. Fast forward 30 days and SI now wants me to jump through additional hoops at a cost of about $1k. Honestly it's not worth it to spend the add'l $1k with no guarantee just to fly for a $100 hamburger.
YMMV. My headset, GPS and other stuff are going up for sale this weekend and another capable and safe pilot is out of the ranks.

That sucks man. :(
 
The big difference in going from SP to PP is the need for at least a 3rd class medical. I'll speak only for me on this but IMHO SI in OKC is not a friend to GA. My 3rd class was denied due to chronic back issues. Back issues were resolved and, per direct statement from SI, the back doctor supplied a release letter. Fast forward 30 days and SI now wants me to jump through additional hoops at a cost of about $1k. Honestly it's not worth it to spend the add'l $1k with no guarantee just to fly for a $100 hamburger.
YMMV. My headset, GPS and other stuff are going up for sale this weekend and another capable and safe pilot is out of the ranks.

Ugh. :( Sorry to hear that.

There really needs to be some reform WRT medical requirements for private pilot privileges, especially in the realm of single-engine piston flying. Known medical issues are rarely the cause of accidents in small airplanes, and the risk to the general public is exceedingly low... At the other end of the spectrum, we have ATP's with first class medicals who die in flight.

Feels to me like the FAA and CAMI are trying to play God and it's not good for GA either. Our recently-former club VP recently lost his medical, and another club member decided to give up the 4-digit-per-year fight to keep his and is going to let it lapse. :( :(
 
Without FAA grants and assurances, I would guess that AT LEAST two thirds of the public airports we have today would be gone, and in reality probably closer to 90%.

That's probably my cue to post Paul Freeman's website link again...

http://www.airfields-freeman.com/

Two of the airports on his list for Colorado, I have landings at in my logbook... and I soloed at one of them.

Ft. Collins Downtown, and Aurora Airpark -- both dead and gone now. Aurora was on its last legs forever, but Ft. Collins Downtown was a bit of a shock to all, I think.

I soloed at Aurora. The prairie has almost completely reclaimed it now.
 
Thanks, all.

Mr. Cheesehead, my biased thought on the 3rd class medical is to do what they do for the SP. There isn't any discernible difference from that aspect (carrying pax) to keep the two requirements separate. However, knowing the FAA moves at glacier speed, I doubt that will happen prior to me taking my dirt nap.
 
I have family over from France.
They were surprised that with the plane I just bought, I could just pack up and decide to go pretty much anywhere I wanted to go at any time I wanted to go there. I told them it's like a car - no one tells you where or when you can take a trip in a car do they?

As we drove around Utah, Idaho, Nevada, Arizona and California last week (ya, long trip), I'd point out the small air strips all along the way and tell them how long it would have taken in the plane.

Now my brother-in-law wants to come live here for a year or more and learn to fly! Hopefully one more converted...
 
Two of the airports on his list for Colorado, I have landings at in my logbook... and I soloed at one of them.

Ft. Collins Downtown, and Aurora Airpark -- both dead and gone now. Aurora was on its last legs forever, but Ft. Collins Downtown was a bit of a shock to all, I think.

I soloed at Aurora. The prairie has almost completely reclaimed it now.


Aurora was closing just as I was moving to Denver. It was still open for about six months or so, but I never had a reason to land there. I have Ft. Collins Downtown in my log book because Eric Jensen used to be based there and he really helped orient me to mountain flying. I was shocked hearing that it was closing. It was a nice airport.

It is amazing how many airports closed during the big real estate run up a few years ago. I hope people are learning that sometimes there are ways to fight these closures. I've seen some success stories in PA. Wings, and Brandywine are two examples.
 
OK then, how is closing 67%-90% of airports going to help GA again? :dunno:

In my experience, many airports are no longer needed, and they are sucking an inordinate amount of government money that could (and should) be either kept in the taxpayer's pockets, or spent more wisely on something else. Like, say, extending the runway at my airport, which IS used extensively.

The airplanes that take off from airports cross state lines too.

But the runways do not. If an airport is so beneficial to a community, it should be willing and able to pony up the occasional paving job. If it's NOT beneficial to the community, it should not be the worry of taxpayers thousands of miles away, who are currently being forced to pay for this sort of upkeep.

Get the stupid EPA and FAA out of the way, and local communities could easily support their own airports. The only reason they can't is because of all the absurd artificial obstacles these two agencies have erected.
 
Get the stupid EPA and FAA out of the way, and local communities could easily support their own airports. The only reason they can't is because of all the absurd artificial obstacles these two agencies have erected.

The only time the feds come in handy is when local politicians grab power and ignore "local community support."

Think Meigs Field.
 
But the runways do not. If an airport is so beneficial to a community, it should be willing and able to pony up the occasional paving job. If it's NOT beneficial to the community, it should not be the worry of taxpayers thousands of miles away, who are currently being forced to pay for this sort of upkeep.

Okay, so we get rid of 80% of public airports. Are the remaining ones as useful? No.

The airports benefit BOTH the community AND the entire country. They benefit the community because businesses can easily do business there and visitors can get there easily. They benefit everyone else because... Well, if you can't go anywhere, the remaining 20% of airports are pretty worthless too.

It could be argued that the Interstates are of a far greater benefit to those communities near them... But they do benefit everyone as well.
 
The only time the feds come in handy is when local politicians grab power and ignore "local community support."

Think Meigs Field.

Yes, and we saw how effective the Feds were in the fight to save Meigs.

Worse than worthless, and twice as expensive.
 
Interesting thread :) Even if I haven't read the whole lot.

This debate plays itself out here in Europe too.

The USA has many things in favour of GA which Europe doesn't have (cheap fuel, great utility value of GA through having many H24 airports, instrument approaches in most of them, a huge unified airspace system, no need for Customs procedures for 99.x% of GA flights, avgas everywhere, etc).

Yet the US pilot community is shrinking, and getting older.

I think the widest common issue across all this is that people are too busy doing other things these days.

Why is it that nobody realizes that students drop out when they realize how much flying costs?

The real cost of flying (as a % of average income) has probably been the same for decades.

The other factors e.g. the large dropout rate, have always been present. Here in the UK, something like 90% drop out of flying within the first year after getting their piece of paper. Loads of reasons for that, not least that many people learn to fly just to tick the "learn to fly" box. Also, loads of young people learn to fly without any regard for whether they can afford it long-term. IME, the majority of pilots are almost never seen again the day after their checkride. I have no idea how many dropped out during training.

The consensus over here (such as there is :) ) is that mentoring is the most important thing. Many new pilots don't have the confidence to plan and execute a real flight from A to B. I am sure this is less the case in the USA (I did my IR in Arizona but otherwise have not flown there) than in Europe but it must still be the case a lot of the time.

Yet mentoring is very difficult, because flying schools do not like experienced pilots hanging around. They are seen to undermine the infinite knowledge and authority of the instructors, and they are likely to divert some of the school customers' sparse money towards the mentor's PPL cost sharing (not sure what it is called in the USA but I know you have a similar scheme; there is a "common purpose" test etc etc). UK AOPA has recently introduced a mentoring scheme but there are such strings attached that (together with most schools not liking it) there appear to be very few takers.

So there you are. One can propose solutions but there are always factors which frustrate them. Which is why the industry is the way it is. If it wanted change it could change. But the industry doesn't want change, because "the business model" is merely to sell training time, not to produce confident and capable pilots. If schools were paid according to post-license hours / distance / whatever flown, everything would change.
 
Yes, and we saw how effective the Feds were in the fight to save Meigs.

Worse than worthless, and twice as expensive.


True, but Daley is in Chicago, and we all know how that local power play works...

For many local fields under "community" control/ ownership, only the threat of Fed involvement keeps airports alive. Two I know very well are run by "boards" that would rather build storage sites, retail shops, or run drag races than have to deal with pilots.
 
Yes, and we saw how effective the Feds were in the fight to save Meigs.

Meigs is a great argument FOR the feds - Meigs had no grants outstanding, thus no grant assurances, and was subjected to the whim of a local.

How many local governments really have a long-term view of things? If we sell the airport to a developer, we can get a bunch of money RIGHT NOW! (Never mind that we'll be losing many future opportunities...) Or some neighbor who doesn't like airplane noise starts rabble-rousing and gets it shut down (squeaky wheel gets the grease, ya know). Now it's gone forever.
 
Meigs is a great argument FOR the feds - Meigs had no grants outstanding, thus no grant assurances, and was subjected to the whim of a local.

How many local governments really have a long-term view of things? If we sell the airport to a developer, we can get a bunch of money RIGHT NOW! (Never mind that we'll be losing many future opportunities...) Or some neighbor who doesn't like airplane noise starts rabble-rousing and gets it shut down (squeaky wheel gets the grease, ya know). Now it's gone forever.

As much as it pains me to say this (I LOVED flying into Meigs), the fact that Da Mayor cleanly got away with closing Meigs is indicative of the fact that the citizens of Chicago really didn't want or need it.

Sure, we all whined and bitched about what a corrupt SOB Daley was, but the bottom line was the citizens apparently didn't see any utility in that airport, and they allowed their elected representative to shut it down.

Do we REALLY want to live in a country where some giant Big Brother dictates to the local community what to do, and how to do it? I understand that in this particular case, that sort of power is appealing to those of us in the pilot community -- but if you extend this power to other situations, you quickly develop EXACTLY the problems we are facing today: Too much power in a remote, centralized government, with the right to borrow all of us into bankruptcy in order to pay for enormous spending "programs" we neither want, need, or even had a chance to vote on.

I, for one, am willing to give up my "Sacred Cow" (lots of "free" airports for me to land at) if it means decentralizing power and fixing the larger problems our country faces.
 
I, for one, am willing to give up my "Sacred Cow" (lots of "free" airports for me to land at) if it means decentralizing power and fixing the larger problems our country faces.


You could shut down Federal subsidies for every airport in the country that has no control tower and no scheduled airline service.

That wouldn't even put a dent in the budget deficit or the national debt. The majority of the deficit is from defense spending and wars. Remember, the wars if Iraq and Afghanistan aren't part of the basic defense budget--that's extra. :idea:
 
That wouldn't even put a dent in the budget deficit or the national debt. The majority of the deficit is from defense spending and wars. Remember, the wars if Iraq and Afghanistan aren't part of the basic defense budget--that's extra.

reference?
 
You could shut down Federal subsidies for every airport in the country that has no control tower and no scheduled airline service.

That wouldn't even put a dent in the budget deficit or the national debt. The majority of the deficit is from defense spending and wars. Remember, the wars if Iraq and Afghanistan aren't part of the basic defense budget--that's extra. :idea:

PolicyBasic_WhereOurTaxDollarsGo-f1_rev4-15-11.jpg


To make this easier:
Social Security + "Safety Net" + Interest on the debt = 40% of the budget

TWICE the total cost of defense, of which the wars are a portion.
 
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I'm with Jay. The 'oh all the airports are a small piece of the pie' is the thinking that caused all of our grief. Airports, gov't spay/neuter programs, arts for kids, etc. Everything just isn't enough to cut. As for wars, can't complain, waging war is one of the few legitimate functions of gov't.
You could shut down Federal subsidies for every airport in the country that has no control tower and no scheduled airline service.

That wouldn't even put a dent in the budget deficit or the national debt. The majority of the deficit is from defense spending and wars. Remember, the wars if Iraq and Afghanistan aren't part of the basic defense budget--that's extra. :idea:
 
I'm with Jay. The 'oh all the airports are a small piece of the pie' is the thinking that caused all of our grief. Airports, gov't spay/neuter programs, arts for kids, etc. Everything just isn't enough to cut. As for wars, can't complain, waging war is one of the few legitimate functions of gov't.

Yes, this conversation is symptomatic of the problem. No individual program, subsidy, or entitlement would "make a dent" in the deficit or debt -- so why cut them?

I'm not saying cutting subsidies for airports will balance the budget -- far from it. I AM saying that eliminating the power that allows the Federal Government to force local municipalities to maintain airports at bloated, federally-mandated rates (while providing a 90% grant for all of the bloated, uber-expensive work they themselves require), rather then letting local citizens maintain airports as they see fit -- and then extending this concept to ALL of government -- WILL help address our budget disaster.

Decentralize, shorten the supply lines, and simplify the process. IMHO, these things will help GA, AND help the country as a whole.
 
Yes, this conversation is symptomatic of the problem. No individual program, subsidy, or entitlement would "make a dent" in the deficit or debt -- so why cut them?

I'm not saying cutting subsidies for airports will balance the budget -- far from it. I AM saying that eliminating the power that allows the Federal Government to force local municipalities to maintain airports at bloated, federally-mandated rates (while providing a 90% grant for all of the bloated, uber-expensive work they themselves require), rather then letting local citizens maintain airports as they see fit -- and then extending this concept to ALL of government -- WILL help address our budget disaster.

Decentralize, shorten the supply lines, and simplify the process. IMHO, these things will help GA, AND help the country as a whole.

How will the closing of the vast majority of small local airports help GA again?
 
How will the closing of the vast majority of small local airports help GA again?


I think our national transportation system is one of the few things in which our Federal government should be involved. Locations of airports does not only affect locals, but also national interests. Meigs provided, a close, downtown option for easy access to one of our major cities. What happens in an emergency when roads are closed or clogged with traffic? How do you get critical response in and out of the city?

I am all for state's rights, even if it affects me personally in a negative way. Not a big Chicago fan, so I never planned to fly into Meigs, so no skin off my nose, but it sets a dangerous precedent, which is being acted out again and again all over the U.S.
 
I think our national transportation system is one of the few things in which our Federal government should be involved. Locations of airports does not only affect locals, but also national interests. Meigs provided, a close, downtown option for easy access to one of our major cities. What happens in an emergency when roads are closed or clogged with traffic? How do you get critical response in and out of the city?

I am all for state's rights, even if it affects me personally in a negative way. Not a big Chicago fan, so I never planned to fly into Meigs, so no skin off my nose, but it sets a dangerous precedent, which is being acted out again and again all over the U.S.

Agreed, it is in the nation's best interest to support a wide network of small GA airports throughout the country. I don't want to have to fly out of KCLT everytime I want to fly, I much prefer my local airport for my flying needs.
 
Agreed, it is in the nation's best interest to support a wide network of small GA airports throughout the country. I don't want to have to fly out of KCLT everytime I want to fly, I much prefer my local airport for my flying needs.


I know you understand this, but just want to be clear. It is in the nation's best interest irrespective of our wants/needs as GA pilots. Yes, it makes it more convenient for us, but it is because of other, broader reasons that it makes sense to keep smaller aiports open.
 
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