Is a Stamp as Good as a Signature

Areeda

Areeda

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Areeda
Yesterday I signed a student's logbook and saw a previous instructor used a stamp instead. It fit nicely in the logbook lines and said "Ima Cfi 1234567CFI exp: ___/___", he hand wrote the expiration date.

Very readable but does it count as "signing the logbook" for all dual given?

If the consensus is that it does, I may get one.

BTW it was about the only signature I could read and this guy was an MD. No offense intended I know MDs sign their names a lot and develop something quick and unreadable as a result.

Joe
 
Areeda said:
Yesterday I signed a student's logbook and saw a previous instructor used a stamp instead. It fit nicely in the logbook lines and said "Ima Cfi 1234567CFI exp: ___/___", he hand wrote the expiration date.

Very readable but does it count as "signing the logbook" for all dual given?

If the consensus is that it does, I may get one.

BTW it was about the only signature I could read and this guy was an MD. No offense intended I know MDs sign their names a lot and develop something quick and unreadable as a result.

Joe
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As long as he signed over the stamp yes, just the stamp with his name, no.

You can also use sticky lables preprinted if you sign them in your own hand.
 
Yikes, I can see this thread going five pages. I think the "real" signature is the correct answer. In my business, state law says the architectural drawings I prepare must have a "real" signature with embossed seal, and not a facsimile (stamp, electronic image, etc.). While not proof of the requirements of an unrelated Federal agency, the logic would seem to be the same.
 
Areeda said:
Yesterday I signed a student's logbook and saw a previous instructor used a stamp instead. It fit nicely in the logbook lines and said "Ima Cfi 1234567CFI exp: ___/___", he hand wrote the expiration date.

Very readable but does it count as "signing the logbook" for all dual given?
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Technically, yes. Legally, for most purposes, a signature is pretty much whatever you decide is your signature; there's no legal requirement for pen and ink.

But, the most common form of signature is a pen and ink signature so it's probably a good idea to use the stamp for ID purposes and sign in pen and ink over it.

Besides, there is a downside. If you consider that rubber stamp as your signature, why can't anyone who gets a hold of your stamp, "sign" your name?
 
midlifeflyer said:
Besides, there is a downside. If you consider that rubber stamp as your signature, why can't anyone who gets a hold of your stamp, "sign" your name?
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Good point, an identical rubber stamp is much much cheaper than a Flight Review or an Instrument Proficiency Check.

I'm starting to like the idea of a stamp and an undecipherable quick glyph.

Joe
 
Why would you smack a rubber stamp on something, then duplicate what the stamp says with a pen? Or am I not getting what you're saying?
 
As far as I know a rubber stamp is just as good as a signature. I worked for a company and all the checks had a stamped signature on them and I never had a problem cashing them. Now maybe because it was a payroll check the bank took it. oh by the way it was not the same bank the check was from.

Bob
 
Areeda said:
Good point, an identical rubber stamp is much much cheaper than a Flight Review or an Instrument Proficiency Check.

I'm starting to like the idea of a stamp and an undecipherable quick glyph.

Joe
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Joe, remember that the entire logbook concept is really based on the honor system. A pilot can falsify anything he wants, with very little risk of getting caught. May be found out if he's in a crash, but then an FAA fraud charge would be the least of his worries.

Anyone who would falsify your entry could save the $10 on a stamp and just sign your name. So I really wouldn't worry about someone getting hold of the stamp as a reason not to get one.

I think this sort of thing is rare, and pilots are by and large among the most honest groups in the world, at least in my experience.

Jon
 
JohnR said:
Why would you smack a rubber stamp on something, then duplicate what the stamp says with a pen? Or am I not getting what you're saying?
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The stamp would be for printed material; the signature would be the signature. Like printing your name so people can read it and also signing.
 
JohnR said:
Yikes, I can see this thread going five pages. I think the "real" signature is the correct answer. In my business, state law says the architectural drawings I prepare must have a "real" signature with embossed seal, and not a facsimile (stamp, electronic image, etc.). While not proof of the requirements of an unrelated Federal agency, the logic would seem to be the same.
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Your state law about architectural drawings is specific. Your state law also has a provision that applies to commercial transactions in general, contracts, leases, sales, banking transactions (such as the checks Bob mentioned), etc that says

==============================
"Signed" means bearing any symbol executed or adopted by a party with present intention to adopt or accept a writing.
==============================

So the applicable logic would be...

BTW, Joe? I tried the stamp routine for a while. I found I had trouble fitting it between the lines. Sort of like how I fly an ILS ;)
 
midlifeflyer said:
BTW, Joe? I tried the stamp routine for a while. I found I had trouble fitting it between the lines. Sort of like how I fly an ILS ;)
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What was the criteria for executing a "missed approach" when signing logbooks with the stamp?:rofl:
 
My experience suggests the FAA won't accept anything but an actual signature, although there's nothing wrong with a stamp with the rest of the data (CFI#, exp date, and name if the signature isn't decipherable*) and a blank spot for the signature.

*I have been told by FAA folks to print my last name next to my signature because they can't read the signature. No regulatory citation, but it ain't worth arguing with the Feds on this to avoid writing "LEVY" next to my chicken scratch. If my last name was Zivojinovitch, I might feel differently (and there might not be room in the box).
 
Ron Levy said:
I have been told by FAA folks to print my last name next to my signature because they can't read the signature. No regulatory citation, but it ain't worth arguing with the Feds on this to avoid writing "LEVY" next to my chicken scratch.
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Here's the regulation upon which any inspector can hang his hat and tell you your signature has to be legible:
61.51(h)(2) "Training time must be logged in a logbook and must:
(i) Be endorsed in a legible manner."
 
Though I can't state what is appropriate on a CFI's part other than what has been written, it seems only reasonable for a CFI to place some easily identifiable signature or at least initials to coincide with his name indicated in the endorsement.

From a student's perspective, I'd want that handwritten signature or something to clearly indicate a human has touched that endorsement. It's unlikely you'll see many "pencil-whipped" endorsements but I certainly don't want an examiner or other inspector calling into question an endorsement that could prevent me from completing a checkride or other validation such as a flight review.
 
nosehair said:
Here's the regulation upon which any inspector can hang his hat and tell you your signature has to be legible:
61.51(h)(2) "Training time must be logged in a logbook and must:
(i) Be endorsed in a legible manner."
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Unfortunately, if my signature is legible, it isn't my signature.:D
 
A&P-IAs have been using stamps for the annual sign off for decades and the feds have never had a problem with that.

BUT

I have never seen a rubber stamp with a name in it. we always sign in our own hand Fortunately my writing is good enough that any one can read it.

Look in you aircraft log books there is probably a rubber stamp there some place.

also the use of shipping lables are OK with the FAA so long as you sign in your own hand writting
 
NC19143 said:
A&P-IAs have been using stamps for the annual sign off for decades and the feds have never had a problem with that.
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But as you note, those stamps only include the verbiage, and have a blank for the IA's signature, even if the IA's name and number are part of the stamp. The OP's question involved a stamped signature, with only the CFI expiration date written by hand, and I don't think the FAA will buy that.
 
Ron Levy said:
But as you note, those stamps only include the verbiage, and have a blank for the IA's signature, even if the IA's name and number are part of the stamp. The OP's question involved a stamped signature, with only the CFI expiration date written by hand, and I don't think the FAA will buy that.
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Yep, the FAA has long said you must sign. The shipping labels that I use as annual and repair signoffs have my name printed at the bottom, but I still am required to sign over it.
 
Without claiming to know what the FAA would "buy", I think there is sufficient precedent to establish the validity of a signature stamp. When I was president of a local watershed management board of directors one of my duties was to countersign all the checks for the organization. Given that there was an average of 50 or so checks each week I looked into the possibility of using a stamp and this was not only OK with the bank, it was something they were willing to supply. Eventually it got to the point where I didn't even have to apply the stamp to the checks, as the board granted the district administrator the authority to use the stamp in my absence on all checks approved by board resolution. I'd think that if a stamped signature was acceptable to the banking industry the FAA ought to be OK with it as well as long as there's some evidence that the stamp itself was under control of the CFI themselves. I am aware that in many cases the copy of a signed document isn't acceptable, but I sure don't see the difference between a CFI wiggling his pen holding hand and using that same hand to press a stamp onto the page.

Ron Levy said:
But as you note, those stamps only include the verbiage, and have a blank for the IA's signature, even if the IA's name and number are part of the stamp. The OP's question involved a stamped signature, with only the CFI expiration date written by hand, and I don't think the FAA will buy that.
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lancefisher said:
Without claiming to know what the FAA would "buy", I think there is sufficient precedent to establish the validity of a signature stamp. When I was president of a local watershed management board of directors one of my duties was to countersign all the checks for the organization. Given that there was an average of 50 or so checks each week I looked into the possibility of using a stamp and this was not only OK with the bank, it was something they were willing to supply.
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In the situation you are talking about, there has been specific state statutory authority for it for a long time - identical to the Florida language I posted above. And that statute is to a large degree a codification of pre-existing industry practices. Whether the signature issue is one of those, I don't know for sure, but I think it probable.

But, although I agree with you and, while it's reasonable to argue that the general legal rule that applies to probably over 90% of the commercial activity of the US (with the possible exception of real property transactions, although that is changing) probably does apply to the FAA, you never know.

It's really no different than the electronic logbook issue in dealing with endorsements, where there is not only state but federal statutes that cover it (you have noticed, haven't you, that you can "sign" your tax returns without pen and ink?
 
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midlifeflyer said:
It's really no different than the electronic logbook issue in dealing with endorsements, where there is not only state but federal statutes that cover it (you have noticed, haven't you, that you can "sign" your tax returns without pen and ink?
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Not yet having run into someone who has only an e-log, I haven't yet crossed this bridge, but when I do, it will be with an FAA letter in my hand.
 
Ron Levy said:
Not yet having run into someone who has only an e-log, I haven't yet crossed this bridge, but when I do, it will be with an FAA letter in my hand.
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Eventually, I'll convert my time to an electronic log but I'll still do printouts for safekeeping elsewhere as well as an off-site file storage. Any endorsements will be kept in the paper log record and also scanned into an electronic form for off-site storage.
 
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