Intercept leads to hard landing at KLOM

Discussion in 'Aviation Mishaps' started by benyflyguy, Sep 6, 2021.

  1. benyflyguy

    benyflyguy En-Route PoA Supporter

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    A Cherokee landed hard at KLOM this afternoon closing airport temporarily. Everyone is ok.
    Heard they violated Presidential TFR and were intercepted and subsequently landed a bit stressed.
     
  2. PeterNSteinmetz

    PeterNSteinmetz En-Route PoA Supporter

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    Interesting side effect of these TFRs to think about. How much additional damage or injury do they cause due to situations like this?
     
  3. luvflyin

    luvflyin Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    And then??
     
  4. Matthew Rogers

    Matthew Rogers Ejection Handle Pulled

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    And then - he found $20?
     
  5. eman1200

    eman1200 Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Yep, blame the TFR. Always someone or something else to blame for one’s stupidity.
     
  6. PeterNSteinmetz

    PeterNSteinmetz En-Route PoA Supporter

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    Sort of missing the point. The PIC is certainly responsible for the hard landing.

    But policies like TFRs, while intended to do one thing, can often have have unintended consequences, like possibly increasing the rate of other adverse events.

    We don’t know if that is true. Or at least I don’t know of a study showing that, but it is a possibility. And in terms of making public policy, like having TFRs in an attempt to prevent a very rare event like an airborne attack on a politician, we should factor in what may be the more common unintended negative costs.
     
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2021
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  7. FastEddieB

    FastEddieB Touchdown! Greaser!

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    “…along came Jones…”
     
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2021
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  8. eman1200

    eman1200 Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    No and then!
     
  9. Brad Z

    Brad Z Final Approach

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    Early after the creation of the Washington DC ADIZ (now SFRA), there was an accident at Tipton airport where a transient pilot misunderstood the ADIZ requirements and took off intending to receive his IFR clearance airborne. When he checked in, the controller immediately informed him that he violated the airspace, and the pilot crashed in the process of trying to quickly land to presumably correct his error.

    https://app.ntsb.gov/pdfgenerator/R...tID=20061031X01581&AKey=1&RType=HTML&IType=FA
     
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2021
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  10. PeterNSteinmetz

    PeterNSteinmetz En-Route PoA Supporter

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    I was trying to think of them - aside from Flight 93, have there been any attempted or successful airborne attacks on politicians in the US?
     
  11. Racerx

    Racerx Line Up and Wait

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  12. luvflyin

    luvflyin Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Something happened. Plane landed hard. Closed the airport. Did the gear collapse? Prop strike? Anyone get hurt? Etc. But I guess this is gonna be about something else.
     
  13. eman1200

    eman1200 Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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  14. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner Touchdown! Greaser!

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    One of the benefits of being a politician…you get to decide which lives are more important than others without having to actually look at the impact on “others”.
     
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  15. luvflyin

    luvflyin Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    I’ll see your ‘and then’ and raise you an ‘and then what’

     
  16. benyflyguy

    benyflyguy En-Route PoA Supporter

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    Stalled on short final. Gear collapsed I heard.
    Everybody ok. These TFR’s where we live are an ever present issue it is just surprising that people bust them continually.
     
  17. LesGawlik

    LesGawlik Pre-takeoff checklist

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    No, and just think of the horror a fully loaded Cessna 150 could cause. Why, down in Florida, one left an ugly smudge on the side of a building!
     
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  18. tawood

    tawood En-Route

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  19. PeterNSteinmetz

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  20. Dana

    Dana Pattern Altitude

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    If you've been intercepted and forced to land and have to go around to salvage a bad landing what will they do next?
     
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  21. tawood

    tawood En-Route

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    Think of the money wasted…and for what? 4-7 non-threatening lost or confused or just not updated pilots.
     
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  22. Cloudhound

    Cloudhound Pre-Flight

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    Grab a bag of popcorn and take bets on the number of attempts it'll take to land that little bugsmasher?
     
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  23. Lindberg

    Lindberg En-Route

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    Go arounds are free. :D
     
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  24. Salty

    Salty Final Approach

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    Sorry officer, the presence of your police car distracted me and caused me to speed.

    Nah, sorry. Hard landing is not TFR's fault in any way, shape or form. Not that I like TFR's.
     
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  25. donjohnston

    donjohnston Cleared for Takeoff

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    Pffft. He came to Chicago about 2 or 3 times per year during his time in office. Usually for less than 48 hours. A few were less than 24 hour visits. It was a giant nothing burger compared Trumps impact on Palm Beach, FL and Bedminster, NJ.
     
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  26. luvflyin

    luvflyin Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Dang. 8 minutes already. Yo, Council, reville, Wake UP

     
  27. danhagan

    danhagan Pattern Altitude

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    I have no trouble with the TFRs, but wait until you get intercepted, that will get your attention (and have you checking your old kneeboard notes on intercept rules).

    Living on the border will guarantee at least ONE intercept in your flying career. My buddy was forced to land and accused of violating Mexican airspace. His GPS shows "tracks" and he had proof he was on our side the entire time. I got intercepted near the border south of Van Horn TX years ago. An aircraft formed up on me and I think was trying to hide directly under me and behind from radar. ATC asked for some turns basically a box, and as I came out of the box I saw a 182 descend and head back for the border. ATC thought it might be a drug plane and I was "met" just a few minutes later and asked to land at the Class C (KELP) field rather than my field 17 miles away. There is now a consistent border TFR in that EXACT area and I heard other local pilots had similar stories ...
     
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  28. Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe

    Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    172.
    And, it was intercepted, but the kid ignored the "signals".

    Doesn't seem to be an issue on the upper border.

    A guy tried to crash into the Whitehouse, damaging a "historic" tree. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Eugene_Corder But that was before TFRs.
    Failed hijack - apparently planned to kill Nixon https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_Byck

    Then the gyrocopter guy - but that was not an attack.
     
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  29. PeterNSteinmetz

    PeterNSteinmetz En-Route PoA Supporter

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    Wouldn’t this be more analogous to “the presence of your police car caused me to swerve and make an abrupt stop” ?

    I agree that the PIC is the PIC and ultimately responsible. But I can also understand that being intercepted and having flares discharged would be more than a bit flustering and could make it harder to focus on landing properly.

    In other words, like many incidents and accidents, likely multiple contributing factors and I think the interception was likely one of them.
     
  30. geezer

    geezer Line Up and Wait

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    Not a TFR event, but.....

    It was a perfect day for flying, and my wife asked if we might go for a lunch at Easton Newnam airport. I checked the schedule of the plane, scheduled it, and I called for a weather briefing, and filed my secure code flight plan. Those have a significand delay in approval, so we drove to the airport to pick it up.

    Perfect flight to Easton, lunch was as good as expected, and my wife told me that flying around the DC area was not as bad as I had been complaining.

    I had filed the return trip with the original, so picked it up by phone, as required, with the customary secure code exchange. Preflight found no problems, good runup, and we were on our way.

    Still a perfect day.

    Cessna 1234c, VFR approved flight plan (Filed on the ground, by phone, and verified) request permission to enter the ADIZ.

    Cessna 1234c, remain clear of the ADIZ. Do not call again
    Woops, something is wrong.

    Piper 1234p, requests permission to enter the ADIZ

    Piper 1234p, remain clear of the ADIZ, do not call again.

    Bonanza 1234b, request permission to enter the ADIZ.

    Bonanza 1234b, remain clear of the ADIZ, do not call again.

    So now there are 3 of us circling on the east side of the Chesapeake bay, no explanation, no estimated time until we might be allowed in. Time from first to last radio call, about 10 minutes.


    Cessna xxxx, , there is a military aircraft dangerously close beside me, what is going on?

    Cessna xxxx, you are in the ADIZ without clearance. change your feequency to -----, and follow the directions given to you.

    We are now a quarter of an hour into this hold east of Bay Bridge airport.

    Cessna 1234c, what WAS your destination


    Cessna 1234c, filed to KCGS, College Park.

    Cessna 1234c, fly direct to Tipton, no turns, and land. Contact Homeland Security there.

    We turned on course to Tipton, by estimate, as we were navigating by old fashioned paper charts.

    The other two planes received similar commands, different airports. Failure to exactly follow those commands results in a formation flight with a military helicopter.

    Arriving at Tipton, we taxied to the main FBO, and shut down. In the office, they knew nothing of any Homeland Security personnel at Tipton.

    Walking to the second FBO, I stopped at a traffic cone for a pot hole, and placed my small pocket knife under it.

    The second FBO also was unaware of any Homeland Security presence on the field, but called them to find out. They were informed that an Officer had just been detailed to Tipton for a search of a possible terrorist aircraft, do not allow it to leave,

    Eventually she arrived from BWI, in her personal car, parked in the employees parking lot, a shuttle bus ride to get it. She searched both my wife and myself with a magnetic wand, and I had to takeoff everything that caused a ring, such as my belt with metal buckle. Search completed, I recovered my keys, belt, etc, and escorted her to the Cessna 172. There, she thoroughly inspected everything on board, including the individual contents of my flight case. She then instructed me to have a piece of paper ready to write down my secure code for my flight plan to Collège Park It is now more than an hour since we called for permission to enter the ADIZ.

    The code was given to her verbally, repeated to us, we wrote it down and read it back, and confirmed.

    When she closed her conversation with security, I asked to borrow her phone to file the required new flight plan.

    NO! THIS IS FOR OFFICIAL USE ONLY! She then stalked off to her car, and drove away.

    When she was out of sight, I recovered my pen knife, walked to the second FBO (They had been friendlier), and used their phone to file the new plan, WITH THE MILITARY not the FAA. If we went down short of CGS, there would be no search. The plan became invalid in 15 minutes, and required activation before reaching 1,000 feet.

    After one of the shortest pre flights, taxi and runup, were were in the air and active. The rest of the flight home was very ordinary.

    As I tied down the Cessna, my wife said she now understood why I had said that flying around the DC area was no fun anymore.

    The return flight took a total of more than two hours. The day I received my PPL at Easton, with Mr. Newnam, the flight over was 40 minutes, and the flight back was 40 minutes, in a Cessna 150.
     
  31. tawood

    tawood En-Route

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    Because terrorist aircraft stick around to be searched. What a joke.
     
  32. GaryM

    GaryM Cleared for Takeoff

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    They do if they know Homeland Security's most rigorous search protocols can be defeated with a nearby traffic cone!
     
  33. geezer

    geezer Line Up and Wait

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    The un armed manager at the small airport is responsible for keeping you in custody until the armed official arrives.

    Funny variation of that problem. Un specified local airport, the officer arrived, and demanded that the duty employee take him to the plane that did the violation. He refused, added that when the government put him on their payroll, with benefits including a gun to carry and regular pay, there was no reason to take any risk for the government. The manager at that time had informed all the line personnel that he would fire any one who did not act in the best interests of their customers.
     
  34. Palmpilot

    Palmpilot Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    When they tell us to wait until the gate closes after driving through, I figure that my responsibility ends once I report someone who doesn't belong walking or running through the open gate. No way do I have the ability to stop terrorists with either my
    bare hands or my Honda Civic.
     
  35. Tarheelpilot

    Tarheelpilot Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    Did I miss the link to an article for this in the thread?
     
  36. Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe

    Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    BUT WHAT IF THAT KNIFE HAD BEEN IN THE HANDS OF A REAL TERRORIST IN A 172?
    THEY COULD HAVE THROWN IT OUT THE WINDOW AT THE ROOF OF A NUCLEAR POWER PLANT OR SOMETHING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!













    :)
     
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  37. luvflyin

    luvflyin Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Gonna be blunt here. If it flusters someone to the point of not being able to land safely they don't belong in the air and should find a new hobby. For their and others sake.
     
  38. PeterNSteinmetz

    PeterNSteinmetz En-Route PoA Supporter

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    I don't know. It wasn't like they crashed and hurt anyone. Just a hard landing.

    I suppose one could examine in a simulator what would happen to the average GA pilot's landing performance when being intercepted. Could actually be an interesting study. I suspect performance would be significantly degraded for a fair portion of them and that the fraction of hard landings might increase by an order of magnitude. But the study would show whether that speculation is true.

    And it is precisely this sort of data and consideration of the average cost to others of doing these intercepts which should factor into decisions about whether to have TFRs and when.
     
  39. nauga

    nauga Administrator Management Council Member PoA Supporter

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    There have been lots of studies of the effects of distractions in the cockpit. Just because this one fits a popular agenda does not make it any less the responsibility of the pilot in command to maintain control of the aircraft in the presence of distractions.

    "I stalled because we were circling to see the moose - it was the moose's fault."
    "The L1011 crashed because the crew was troubleshooting a gear light as the airplane descended into terrain - it was the gear light's fault."

    The OP example and (mis)attribution is equally ridiculous.

    Nauga,
    the meat servo with a brain
     
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  40. geezer

    geezer Line Up and Wait

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    In this individual case, it bothers me that no information is coming out on the details.

    The government report that 4 to 7 intercepts occur per weekend is strong evidence that flying in beautiful clear weather without a weather briefing is still common.

    Flying with a GPS with up to the day data displaying all the changeable restrictions should not be the default minimum to fly.
     
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