Instrument Requirements - CFII help?

[Ted]

I'm having a debate with a friend of mine here regarding FAR 61.65, requirements for the instrument rating. Currently I have 25 out of the 40 actual or simulated instruemnt time (none on a simulator, all hood). My question is regards to 61.65.d.2. Here is the wording, as copied from FAA.gov:

61.65.d - Aeronautical Experience. A person who applies for an instrument rating must have logged the following:

(2) A total of 40 hours of actual or simulated instrument time on the areas of operation of this section, to include--
(i) At least 15 hours of instrument flight training from an authorized instructor in the aircraft category for which the instrument rating is sought;

All the other requirements aside (what subjects must be covered, the XC, 3 hour review, etc.). My understanding was that this meant I needed 40 hours of combined actual/hood time, at least 15 of which must have been logged instruction time with my CFII.

A friend of mine (who had a different CFII) said his CFII interprets this to mean your hood time with a safety pilot only counts if it's under the "supervision" of a CFII. This makes no sense to me. Are you going to pay the CFII to sit in the back seat while your friend safety pilots for you?

I suppose here's where I'm more going with this. I want to go flying, I take a friend with me. I put the hood on, log my time, knock off a couple of the 15 hours of the 40 total I need to get the IR. Is my friend's CFII right and I can't log it towards my rating, or is that just absurd?

Thanks!

 

[ScottM]

Your friend is mistaken.

The time other than training does not have to be under supervision of a CFI.

You are right. But I am sure a few of the CFIs on here will also tell you the same thing.

 

[Ted]

Your friend is mistaken.

Actually, it's his CFII who's mistaken. He and I both interpret FAR 61.65.d.2 the same way.

The time other than training does not have to be under supervision of a CFI.

You are right. But I am sure a few of the CFIs on here will also tell you the same thing.

Thanks, Scott!

Others (especially CFIIs) please chime in to agree (or disagree, if Scott is wrong ).

 

[tonycondon]

ted, you are right

 

[mantakos]

... his CFII interprets this to mean your hood time with a safety pilot only counts if it's under the "supervision" of a CFII...

Either this CFII is clueless, or else there's some confusion between "simulated instrument" and "simulated instrument on a simulator". The latter must be done under the supervision of a CFII in order to log it.

I want to go flying, I take a friend with me. I put the hood on, log my time, knock off a couple of the 15 hours of the 40 total I need to get the IR.

The time you do with a safety pilot counts towards the 40, but not towards the 15. You need 40 total, at least 15 of which must be done with a CFII.

By the way, if you're ready for your IR checkride after 15 hours of training, and 25 hours of safety pilot time, then you're at the head of your class.
-harry

 

[Ted]

The time you do with a safety pilot counts towards the 40, but not towards the 15. You need 40 total, at least 15 of which must be done with a CFII.

This is my interpretation as well.

Thanks as well, Tony.

More confirmations appreciated...

 

[Areeda]

More confirmations appreciated...

Add me. If you look at the far you posted

(2) A total of 40 hours of actual or simulated instrument time on the areas of operation of this section, to include--
(i) At least 15 hours of instrument flight training from an authorized instructor in the aircraft category for which the instrument rating is sought;

If you fly with a safety pilot how are you going to log it? Me, I would put the whole flight as PIC and the hood time as simulated instrument. I don't see anything in §61.65 that puts a restriction on total actual or simulated time for the requirement.

As Harry said, sim time needs an instructor for all of it.

This brings up the perennial argument of whether you get to count your hood time from the private training if your private instructor was not a CFI-I.

The answer is that it counts toward the 40 but not towards the 15.

Joe

 

[CJones]

I'll jump on board as saying the 40 hrs can come from any PIC time of which you are under the hood.

That's how I got the majority of my hood time -- split costs in a 152 with a buddy. One of us would fly under the hood outbound to an airport (XC length of course) and then switch for the inbound hop. Got quite a few hours of Sim Instr & XC for ~$27/hr.

One note to you if you are going to use the 'buddy system': Try to get with a CFII first to make sure you don't develop any bad habits while building time with a safety pilot. I did my 'intro to IR' stuff before starting to build time. You'll also want to fly with a CFII every once in a while to do a check-up to prevent learning the wrong methods. Other than that, go at it and have fun!

 

[Ted]

If you fly with a safety pilot how are you going to log it? Me, I would put the whole flight as PIC and the hood time as simulated instrument. I don't see anything in §61.65 that puts a restriction on total actual or simulated time for the requirement.

That is how I was going to log it. Thanks for the confirmation!

This brings up the perennial argument of whether you get to count your hood time from the private training if your private instructor was not a CFI-I.

The answer is that it counts toward the 40 but not towards the 15.

Well, my CFII was also my CFI for my private. However, right now we're at about 25 hours of instruction, so it's a moot point anyway, since I'm well over the required 15. Now it's a matter of geting to 40 total, and having the knowledge and skills part.

 

[tlglenn]

I think it's probably better to do most or all of the required 40 hours with a CFII and then use a non-CFI safety pilot later on to help maintain skills and currency.

 

[dmccormack]

I think it's probably better to do most or all of the required 40 hours with a CFII and then use a non-CFI safety pilot later on to help maintain skills and currency.

Wow.. that's a lot of dual hours to require or expect, IMHO.

I had 13.1 hours dual, 8.1 sim (with a CFII supervising/running the sim) and the balance was with safety pilots (42.0 when I showed up for the Practical)

Three of the safety pilot hours was with a CFI who could act as Safety pilot, but not log it as dual -- but he gave me constructive feedback, and it helped him prepare for the CFI-I.

The rest was with another IR student. We would take turns under the hood.

 

[Ted]

In my case, when I'm done it'll be at least 30 hours with my CFII. A lot of that just has to do with circumstance. I like flying with him anyway, because he always teaches me new things that I don't know. It's worth the extra money for me, and it's fun.

If I fly with a safety pilot, it's more just to get extra practice in. Today was a good example. I wanted to fly down to KLOM to see the guys there (had a great time), so I brought my friend (the one whose CFII gave him the misinformation) to safety pilot. An additional 2 hours of hood time, and he did a great job as a safety pilot by failing instruments on me at key moments, causing me to have to 1) fly the plane and 2) figure out what to do with what he failed without overload. Was great practice, and an excellent mental workout. I had a blast.

Tomorrow: More flying!

 

[ScottM]

Wow.. that's a lot of dual hours to require or expect, IMHO.

It is! But I did my IR with almost all of my 40+ hours with a CFII. Mostly because I did my IR over an 18 month period so I wanted to ensure I was not getting into any bad habits.

 

[TMetzinger]

My IR was under a 141 Syllabus, so all the time was dual. On the other hand the GI bill paid for 60%, so I got a good deal. The commercial syllabus had specific solo time for X/C building, and even though I had the time already, I had a couple of nice flying vacations subsidized by my favorite Uncle.

 

[dmccormack]

It is! But I did my IR with almost all of my 40+ hours with a CFII. Mostly because I did my IR over an 18 month period so I wanted to ensure I was not getting into any bad habits.

For me (disclaimer!) the least re-learning was required when I scheduled 2-3 flights a week.

I did that with the PP and the IR.

The Comm was over the winter and this year it was either ice-filled low ceilings of howling winds -- not conducive to 8s on Pylons (lots of hills here). So what should have been 3 week effort lasted two months.

The CFI took about 20 hours as I wanted to be absolutely sure I had everything down cold.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

By the way, if you're ready for your IR checkride after 15 hours of training, and 25 hours of safety pilot time, then you're at the head of your class.
-harry

Amen to that!

Ted, can your friend's CFII read? That reg is one of the ones that seems pretty darn clear and plain-English to me.

 

[Ted]

Ted, can your friend's CFII read? That reg is one of the ones that seems pretty darn clear and plain-English to me.

You know, the CFII in question is an extremely intelligent man. However he also is someone who those of us who know him in other contexts sometimes wonder what he's thinking. I think this is one of those cases.

 

[poadeleted20]

AFS-800 also agrees with Ted, and absent a vote from the FAA Chief Counsel, that pretty much seals the deal.