Instructor responsibility

Old Geek

Old Geek

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Old Geek
I understand that an accident or incident by a newly certificated pilot can lead to an enforcement action against his/her instructor. How long is the instructor "on the hook" for this sort of thing. How often does it happen?

For the record, I ask because I'm interested in getting an instructor rating.
 
Old Geek said:
I understand that an accident or incident by a newly certificated pilot can lead to an enforcement action against his/her instructor. How long is the instructor "on the hook" for this sort of thing. How often does it happen?

For the record, I ask because I'm interested in getting an instructor rating.
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I don't think there is a regulation putting the CFI on the hook, in fact, if anything I'd say the DPE might carry as much or similar liability. The FAA might question you about it. But if it's a one time deal I imagine that'd be about it.

That said..there is nothing to say their family won't sue the hell out of you if the pilot gets killed. I wonder if there is CFI insurance for covering things like that?
 
I believe the NAFI policies do cover you for liability after your student leaves the nest.

If a new pilot has an accident, I know that the FAA does chat with the examiner and the CFI(s), but that's usually to get a better idea about the pilot, and unless there's evidence that the CFI falsified training records or something along that nature, I've never heard of enforcement action resulting from it against the CFI.
 
Highly unlikely that a CFI will be sued for the actions of a former student after they have finished their license. At that point they have the stamp of approval from the DPE and the FAA.

However, accidents during training can result in problems for the CFI. Insurance is available to cover this, but be sure that it really does. One "CFI policy" I found only covered aircraft damage, not CFI malpractice.
 
dmac5356 said:
accidents during training can result in problems for the CFI.
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Accidents during training, or after certification, only cause problems for the CFI when an investigation reveals insufficient training. Most of us CFIs don't do enough paperwork to show/document sufficient training. That's where you take your chances.
~another old geek.
 
I had a prior MEI student land a twin gear up on the first instructional flight she was giving after passing her checkride. She got a 709 ride and the FAA talked to the DPE, but I never heard a peep (other than from the student).

I don't think that's a concern that would keep me from instructing.
 
Old Geek said:
I understand that an accident or incident by a newly certificated pilot can lead to an enforcement action against his/her instructor.
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Only if the investigation uncovers some improper conduct by the instructor during the course of the pilot's training, like signing the pilot off without giving all the required training. That would be violation of several Part 61 sections, including 61.59.

How long is the instructor "on the hook" for this sort of thing.
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Theoretically, forever, since the 6-month clock doesn't start running until the FAA becomes aware of the violation by the instructor.

How often does it happen?
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Pretty rare, and usually if it happens while the trainee is still a Student Pilot.

For the record, I ask because I'm interested in getting an instructor rating.
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Don't worry about it. Play by the book, get good CFI insurance (like the NAFI-sponsored policy from Falcon), document training properly, and don't sign endorsements unless you really believe the trainee meets the standards, and you shouldn't have a problem. For more on this, see "Does This Tiger have a Tail," written by an aviation attorney for an aviation law conference.

The more likely issue is that if the trainee shows deficiencies in skill or knowledge, the instructor might be called in so the FAA can confirm that the instructor is competent to teach. This could involve a reexamination or "709 ride" on the instructor's CFI ticket covering the areas of concern. It's rare for that to occur on a single event, but if several of your trainees have problems (accidents, incidents, violations, and/or practical test failures), it's something the FAA may do.
 
I onced asked an independent instructor and commercial pilot about his insurance... he is not wealthy, instructs in either his own (not very valuable) plane or one provided by the student, and carries no insurance "because if you don't have money and there's no insurance company involved, the lawyers won't come after you".
Logical... sort of. I wonder if the plaintiff failed to get anything out of the student's insurer (if any), or the manufacturer (most likely the party with the deepest pockets, not to mention tons of liability insurance), they might still go after what little assets he might have... ?
 
rottydaddy said:
I wonder if the plaintiff failed to get anything out of the student's insurer (if any), or the manufacturer (most likely the party with the deepest pockets, not to mention tons of liability insurance), they might still go after what little assets he might have... ?
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They might indeed, but if the instructor has done as suggested in the Tiger/Tail article, they are unlikely to get them. The problem for that instructor, however, will be the cost of the legal defense to defend those few assets. That's the biggest thing your insurance buys. I learned that lesson 20 years ago when my homeowner's insurance paid the $10K+ to defend me from a frivilous lawsuit involving my dog's nose and a neighbor lady's crotch.
 
Last flight review I did, the instructor had a checklist of things that were covered during the review that I signed. Seemed like a good CYA to me.
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
Last flight review I did, the instructor had a checklist of things that were covered during the review that I signed. Seemed like a good CYA to me.
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The FSDO inspector who administered my CFI practical exam told me about a case where a pilot killed himself and three others in a stall-spin accident just a week after he completed a BFR. The CFI who signed off the pilot's BFR was contacted by the FSDO and had a complete list of everything they did, signed by the pilot and CFI. Not only did it prove that the BFR was thoroughly completed but also helped the CFI against liability in a civil suit. I thought it was an excellent idea and document BFR/IPCs in a similar fashion.
 
Ron Levy said:
$10K+ to defend me from a frivilous lawsuit involving my dog's nose and a neighbor lady's crotch.
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No kidding.

Our flying club has a formal training record form, signed by the instructor and student after every lesson, and each student must take a ride with the Chief CFI (who provides a report according to a form) before solo. Also, my instructor was very thorough about filling my logbook out. Guess they got the bases covered.
 
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dmac5356 said:
Highly unlikely that a CFI will be sued for the actions of a former student after they have finished their license. At that point they have the stamp of approval from the DPE and the FAA.
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Tell that to Cirrus and the UND foundation. They spent millions to defend against a suit for 'negligent instruction' after a VFR pilot flew into the clouds at night and killed himself and a friend (both of them with families that needed to be taken care of financially).

In the end they prevailed at the MN supreme court. The main argument of the court was that you can't be sued for having a dumb student, there is even a whole legal concept around it ('instructional immunity' or something like that). The plaintiff tried to fashion it as a product liability case, an argument which was eventually rejected.
 
The Navy flying club lost an Arrow in december, the resulting FAA NTSB investigation found the cause of the accident was water in the fuel, not found on preflight, and the pilot error of dropping the gear prior to landing, which is contrary to emergency procedures. That error cause his death, he had the field made, then dropped his gear and the field wasn't made any more. (sad)

the club is now closed until the training syllabus is re-written and the lead pilot passes the FAA required 709 ride.
Normal procedure ? don't know but it happened here.
 
Seems like more use of the WINGS program (better documentation, specific tasks) instead of the old-fashioned BFR, might help with the perceived liability problem?
 
dmac5356 said:
Highly unlikely that a CFI will be sued for the actions of a former student after they have finished their license. At that point they have the stamp of approval from the DPE and the FAA.

However, accidents during training can result in problems for the CFI. Insurance is available to cover this, but be sure that it really does. One "CFI policy" I found only covered aircraft damage, not CFI malpractice.
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I gave a checkride to a guy who later had a mid-air with a glider. I had to do a deposition for the lawyers, but the FAA never got involved.

Bob Gardner
 
HPNPilot1200 said:
The FSDO inspector who administered my CFI practical exam told me about a case where a pilot killed himself and three others in a stall-spin accident just a week after he completed a BFR. The CFI who signed off the pilot's BFR was contacted by the FSDO and had a complete list of everything they did, signed by the pilot and CFI. Not only did it prove that the BFR was thoroughly completed but also helped the CFI against liability in a civil suit. I thought it was an excellent idea and document BFR/IPCs in a similar fashion.
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That's why I use the WINGS syllabi for my BFRs. Easy to check off what tasks were done, and the WINGS record exists in both my and my students faasafety.gov accounts as well as the paper copies.

PS - if you do enough WINGS signoffs on flight activities, you qualify for a renewal of your CFI certificate. Evaluate at least five different pilots, and fifteen total activities, and you're covered (AC 61-91J).
 
weilke said:
Tell that to Cirrus and the UND foundation. They spent millions to defend against a suit for 'negligent instruction' after a VFR pilot flew into the clouds at night and killed himself and a friend (both of them with families that needed to be taken care of financially).

In the end they prevailed at the MN supreme court. The main argument of the court was that you can't be sued for having a dumb student, there is even a whole legal concept around it ('instructional immunity' or something like that). The plaintiff tried to fashion it as a product liability case, an argument which was eventually rejected.
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...and I'll bet the instructor's instructional liability policy covered his/her legal expenses on that one. Anyone can sue you, and even if the suit is found in your favor, you're still out of pocket for the legal expenses unless you have appropriate insurance.
 
Ron Levy said:
...and I'll bet the instructor's instructional liability policy covered his/her legal expenses on that one.
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How many millions do you have in instructors liability to cover legal expenses ?

This went to the top of the state courts twice and through the federal courts up to a full appeals court hearing once.
 
weilke said:
How many millions do you have in instructors liability to cover legal expenses ?

This went to the top of the state courts twice and through the federal courts up to a full appeals court hearing once.
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I don't think the INSTRUCTOR'S liability ran up a huge legal bill. Bet that Cirrus did most of the work.
 
TMetzinger said:
I don't think the INSTRUCTOR'S liability ran up a huge legal bill. Bet that Cirrus did most of the work.
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Right, but that was because there were two deep pockets to loot, in this case Cirrus and UND foundation.

If it's just you as an instructor who doesn't manage to pre-emptively keep an idiot from doing something idiotic, it will be your insurance that has to cover the litigation (odds are in a similar case they would just settle at the policy limit and get you released).
 
weilke said:
If it's just you as an instructor who doesn't manage to pre-emptively keep an idiot from doing something idiotic, it will be your insurance that has to cover the litigation.
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...or your life savings or equity in your home if you don't have that insurance.
 
Ron Levy said:
I learned that lesson 20 years ago when my homeowner's insurance paid the $10K+ to defend me from a frivilous lawsuit involving my dog's nose and a neighbor lady's crotch.
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:eek:
For that kind of money, it's too bad the dog didn't bite her. It would serve her right, with that attitude. If a dog sniffs you- anywhere- it's a compliment. :D
 
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