inop clock in panel

dell30rb

dell30rb

Final Approach
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The IFR 152 I have been flying and doing a good portion of my instrument training in has an inoperative panel clock. Owner has opted not to fix due to its uselessness and expense. A sporty's flight timer is fixed next to it, and does a much better job.

I know this is required equipment for IFR operations. My concern is if I am going to be able to take a checkride in this airplane or not. I know most checkrides are done in VMC with the DPE acting as atc. So technically would be legal ... but will a DPE let this slide?

P.S. The airplane is well-maintained... records are good and the panel clock is the only squawk.
 
Nope. I already went down this path last year.

Gotta fix the panel clock or have another piece of gear that has one in it, like a GPS.

It's retarded. We replaced ours while the airplane was in getting a new panel cover and taking out the ADF. It ran about $80 without labor for the piece of crap.

The new one has little red hands that can be spun, so I added it to my flow to set the little hands at engine start time, so I always have a way to know how long we've been aloft that's easier to see than the Hobbs on the far top right of our panel. That's all it ever gets used for.
 
denverpilot said:
Nope. I already went down this path last year.

Gotta fix the panel clock or have another piece of gear that has one in it, like a GPS.

It's retarded. We replaced ours while the airplane was in getting a new panel cover and taking out the ADF. It ran about $80 without labor for the piece of crap.

The new one has little red hands that can be spun, so I added it to my flow to set the little hands at engine start time, so I always have a way to know how long we've been aloft that's easier to see than the Hobbs on the far top right of our panel. That's all it ever gets used for.
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Thanks for the reply. It will cost me a couple hundred bucks more but I 'spose I'll take the ride in a warrior that has an operative panel clock.

Where did you find one that was about $80? The plane is in annual now.. I think the owner might replace if I could find him one for that price. He was thinking more like $250
 
dell30rb said:
The IFR 152 I have been flying and doing a good portion of my instrument training in has an inoperative panel clock. Owner has opted not to fix due to its uselessness and expense. A sporty's flight timer is fixed next to it, and does a much better job.

I know this is required equipment for IFR operations. My concern is if I am going to be able to take a checkride in this airplane or not. I know most checkrides are done in VMC with the DPE acting as atc. So technically would be legal ... but will a DPE let this slide?

P.S. The airplane is well-maintained... records are good and the panel clock is the only squawk.
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The only way to know for certain is to ask the DE you plan to use for the checkride. If you "disable" the clock and mark it INOP with an appropriate log entry, the plane would be legal for VFR but not IFR. VMC vs IMC doesn't matter from a legal perspective, only IFR vs VFR (i.e. whether or not you are flying with an IFR clearance on an IFR flight plan). As long as the DE agrees to allow you to "simulate" filing an IFR flight plan and receiving an IFR clearance, you'd be legal but I don't know if that is OK with the DE.
 
dell30rb said:
Where did you find one that was about $80? The plane is in annual now.. I think the owner might replace if I could find him one for that price. He was thinking more like $250
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The avionics shop bought it from one of their suppliers... I'd have to go dig up the paperwork from January 2010. There was still installation charges on top of that, also... so that may be where he's estimating high.

gismo said:
The only way to know for certain is to ask the DE you plan to use for the checkride. If you "disable" the clock and mark it INOP with an appropriate log entry, the plane would be legal for VFR but not IFR. VMC vs IMC doesn't matter from a legal perspective, only IFR vs VFR (i.e. whether or not you are flying with an IFR clearance on an IFR flight plan). As long as the DE agrees to allow you to "simulate" filing an IFR flight plan and receiving an IFR clearance, you'd be legal but I don't know if that is OK with the DE.
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Good point. We were planning on using our aircraft for real IFR filing either during training if needed (which ended up being the case up in Nebraska with Jesse) and later on, of course. So we had to fix it.

We also had to taxi over to the VOR checkpoint and put that in the airplane's on-board log... since up until Jesse and I flew in the soup, the airplane hasn't been flown in real IFR in years... another new habit to build...

We were also told that the existing clock would have to be COMPLETELY and truly disabled to label it INOP - including pulling the power wiring to it. Seemed easier to just fix it.
 
dell30rb said:
Where did you find one that was about $80? The plane is in annual now.. I think the owner might replace if I could find him one for that price. He was thinking more like $250
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Chief and (I believe) Spruce have relatively inexpensive aircraft clocks available. They serve jus' fine, e.g. the expensive do-all digital clocks aren't required. Installation is cheap if one of the hangar apes does it and the IA signs off on it.
 
denverpilot said:
We were also told that the existing clock would have to be COMPLETELY and truly disabled to label it INOP - including pulling the power wiring to it. Seemed easier to just fix it.
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I knew there was a reason I liked the original equipment wind-up clock in the corner of the cherokee. And it works, too!
 
That must be one horrible clock if the sportys timer is superior. I'd take the Cherokee wind up clock all day any day over a truckload of those sportys timers.
 
denverpilot said:
We were also told that the existing clock would have to be COMPLETELY and truly disabled to label it INOP - including pulling the power wiring to it. Seemed easier to just fix it.
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AFaIK pulling a push/pull CB and cinching a ty-rap around the extended button is considered to be an acceptable method for disabling an electrical appliance in an airplane. Of course most panel clocks run on a fused lead from the battery. For that I'd remove the fuse and replace it with an open one or a piece of plastic the same size as the fuse.
 
Yup. No breaker for the clock in our bird. No pull-breakers at all, in fact. Recessed ones.
 
Even a stopped clock is right twice a day. Plan your departure time accordingly :)
 
I've seen the cheap (ha) aircraft spruce clocks but its my impression that none of them will fit the C152, because the clock in the 152 has a much smaller diameter than any of those.
 
Graueradler said:
Actually, a stopped clock is exactly right twice a day. A running clock is never exactly right.
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And a man with two watches never truly knows what time it is. Of course there are the so-called 8 day clocks. Used to have one of those in my plane. Oddly enough it doesn't work reliably in the plane, but works fine on my desk. I've never figured it out. I just replaced it with one of those cheap ASHTECH LC-2s.

The latter is unfortunately VERY DANGEROUS. As it's internal AA cell starts to die, it ceases to keep time. When I was working on my instrument rating and doing timed turns, the instructor thought I was daft, but I was nailing things based on the panel clock. I switched to using the little Sporty's timer instead and found that my panel clock was running over 30% slow.
 
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My wristwatch (Citizen Black Eagle) is automatically re-set every morning at 4a to the NIST time clock via RF. Are you telling me that I cannot use it as an IFR legal timekeeping device?
 
gismo said:
As long as the DE agrees to allow you to "simulate" filing an IFR flight plan and receiving an IFR clearance, you'd be legal but I don't know if that is OK with the DE.
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14 CFR 61.39 says:
(b) Required equipment (other than controls).
(1) Except as provided in paragraph (b)(2) of this section, an aircraft used for a practical test must have--
(i) The equipment for each area of operation required for the practical test;
(ii) No prescribed operating limitations that prohibit its use in any of the areas of operation required for the practical test;
(iii) Except as provided in paragraphs (e) and (f) of this section, at least two pilot stations with adequate visibility for each person to operate the aircraft safely; and
(iv) Cockpit and outside visibility adequate to evaluate the performance of the applicant when an additional jump seat is provided for the examiner.
(2) An applicant for a certificate or rating may use an aircraft with operating characteristics that preclude the applicant from performing all of the tasks required for the practical test. However, the applicant's certificate or rating, as appropriate, will be issued with an appropriate limitation.
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Since a clock is required to perform certain tasks (like holding and most nonprecision approaches not involving), it certainly appears the aircraft must equipped with an operable clock. While FAA Order 8900.1 provides an exception to the requirement for an aircraft not limited to VFR, that aircraft still must be equipped for IFR operations per 91.205(d), including an operable clock. And despite paragraph (b)(2), I don't think they can issue an IR limited to operations not requiring the use of a clock.
 
Jaybird180 said:
My wristwatch (Citizen Black Eagle) is automatically re-set every morning at 4a to the NIST time clock via RF. Are you telling me that I cannot use it as an IFR legal timekeeping device?
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You can certainly use it to do all your IFR timing, but the aircraft still must have an installed, operable clock to be IFR legal per 91.205(d)(6). And yes, this one's been tested in an enforcement case, and the NTSB agreed with the FAA that you cannot legally substitute a wrist watch for the installed clock required by 91.205(d)(6).
 
What qualifies as an official clock when installed since it has been determined to be a "minor" change? Apparently I don't get what the FAA is trying to get me to understand.
 
Tom-D said:
look on the front side of the firewall.
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Oh I knew there had to be something somewhere for it, either a fuse or a breaker somewhere.

Just not something accessible/in the usual row of breakers accessible to the pilot in flight.

Failed electronics are excellent at saving cheap fuses from destruction... :)
 
Ron Levy said:
You can certainly use it to do all your IFR timing, but the aircraft still must have an installed, operable clock to be IFR legal per 91.205(d)(6). And yes, this one's been tested in an enforcement case, and the NTSB agreed with the FAA that you cannot legally substitute a wrist watch for the installed clock required by 91.205(d)(6).
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Considering how much portable timepieces have advanced since the regulation was written, this has to be the most obsolete requirement in aviation!
 
Yes there is a TSO for clocks.
Yes, I know I can get the 8 day repaired, but it will cost me more the the POS asstech costs me for regulatory requirement. I've got any number of timers (there's several in the 480 and I've got my little velcro sporty's and my watch) that I can use practically.
 
Ron Levy said:
You can certainly use it to do all your IFR timing, but the aircraft still must have an installed, operable clock to be IFR legal per 91.205(d)(6). And yes, this one's been tested in an enforcement case, and the NTSB agreed with the FAA that you cannot legally substitute a wrist watch for the installed clock required by 91.205(d)(6).
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This is where the experimental category makes more sense than the FAA.
 
Jaybird180 said:
This is where the experimental category makes more sense than the FAA.
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Depends on what the operating limitations and kinds of operations sections of that particular aircraft's paperwork say. I believe I've seen E-AB aircraft where it says compliance with the equipment in 91.205(d) is required for IFR operations.
 
Great news, the panel clock works now. Plane is in annual now, mechanic found the loose wire. No more worrying about this problem. :)
 
Sounds like you could spring for the clock and let them install it during the annual and it would be cheaper than renting a different plane. Maybe the owner would be decent about it and deduct it from your rent once you tell him the situation.

A friend of mine who has a Cessna 140 like mine, just replaced his mechanical clock with a quartz unit and said it wasn't very expensive.

Doc
 
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