Inexpensive IFR approach GPS unit

[philiplane]

There are a few inexpensive, IFR approach capable GPS units available for those of us on a beer budget. The Apollo 2001 NMS is one of those. Fully supported by the Garmin AT division in Salem, Oregon. These are the folks that invented the WAAS GPS. Garmin couldn't do it fast enough, so they bought Apollo, renamed it Garmin AT, and used the technology to transform the GNS series into WAAS units in 2007. Apollo had their CNX-80 WAAS certified years before Garmin. The Apollo CNX-80 became the Garmin GNS-480. The CNX-80 is the follow-on to the original IFR approach GPS, the Apollo 2001 NMS. The 2001 is not moving map, but it can drive one such as the MX-20 and also many compatible handhelds. Best of all, if you still don't have an IFR GPS in your panel, you don't have to spend $15K to get one. You only need about $2k for one of these units, installed with a stand-alone MD-40-65L CDI or interfaced to any common CDI with an annunciator switch unit.

There is one on ebay tonight.

 

[JimNtexas]

KLN-94 every time!

 

[denverpilot]

If you can't beat 'em, buy 'em. That's the new way to corporate profits. Why risk innovating? You know those little broke-asses will sell out.

 

[alfadog]

There are a few inexpensive, IFR approach capable GPS units available for those of us on a beer budget. The Apollo 2001 NMS is one of those. Fully supported by the Garmin AT division in Salem, Oregon. These are the folks that invented the WAAS GPS. Garmin couldn't do it fast enough, so they bought Apollo, renamed it Garmin AT, and used the technology to transform the GNS series into WAAS units in 2007. Apollo had their CNX-80 WAAS certified years before Garmin. The Apollo CNX-80 became the Garmin GNS-480. The CNX-80 is the follow-on to the original IFR approach GPS, the Apollo 2001 NMS. The 2001 is not moving map, but it can drive one such as the MX-20 and also many compatible handhelds. Best of all, if you still don't have an IFR GPS in your panel, you don't have to spend $15K to get one. You only need about $2k for one of these units, installed with a stand-alone MD-40-65L CDI or interfaced to any common CDI with an annunciator switch unit.

There is one on ebay tonight.

There look to be five on eBay right now. You should be able to post the link to yours here in the classified.

 

[philiplane]

There is only ONE that is IFR. The others are VFR only, and probably don't even work because they haven't had the $400 service bulletin done to them since 2008.

 

[alfadog]

There is only ONE that is IFR. The others are VFR only, and probably don't even work because they haven't had the $400 service bulletin done to them since 2008.

Just mentioning that it is OK to post a link.

 

[poadeleted20]

Might be only $2K to buy it, but installation and certification is going to add a lot to that -- maybe more than the unit itself cost. So, while you might save a bit over a KLN-94 or other more modern, flexible, easy-to-use unit, I guarantee that soon enough you'll wish you'd spent the extra money.

 

[JimNtexas]

Might be only $2K to buy it, but installation and certification is going to add a lot to that -- maybe more than the unit itself cost. So, while you might save a bit over a KLN-94 or other more modern, flexible, easy-to-use unit, I guarantee that soon enough you'll wish you'd spent the extra money.

Ron is correct.

Pippen York just sold our club a KLN-94 for $2500. That includes the paperwork to make it IFR legal. It was a slide in replacement for an IFR approved KLN89b, so the physical installation took five minutes.

The KLN-94 is a way better unit than the 89b, even though both have the same basic gps engine.

 

[JHW]

for me it was a garmin 300 for $1200, indicator for $700, installation paperwork was a couple hundred and a horsetrade for some parts. I was /G legal for well under $2500

 

[Ted]

I had a KLN94/KX155A installed in the Aztec to replace its VFR GPS and a KX170B. After doing it, I found myself wishing I'd put a 430 or 530 in for what would've been the marginal cost increase.

 

[poadeleted20]

Ron is correct.

Pippen York just sold our club a KLN-94 for $2500. That includes the paperwork to make it IFR legal. It was a slide in replacement for an IFR approved KLN89b, so the physical installation took five minutes.

Keep in mind that Jim's plane already had an 89B installed. Installing a 94 from scratch is probably going to cost you somewhere around $2K above the costs he mentioned.

 

[poadeleted20]

for me it was a garmin 300 for $1200, indicator for $700, installation paperwork was a couple hundred and a horsetrade for some parts. I was /G legal for well under $2500

Note that Jeff is not including the installation man-hours. How many hours did that take? I'm guessing at least 20. And what's the hourly rate at your avionics shop?

 

[Ted]

Note that Jeff is not including the installation man-hours. How many hours did that take? I'm guessing at least 20. And what's the hourly rate at your avionics shop?

I think the hourly rate is $0 for Jeff.

 

[bnt83]

I have a 250XL and keep looking at the 300XL's for /G


I don't really enjoy wiring behind the instrument panel. The thought of me paying someone to do it just blasphemy an goes against everything I stand for.

 

[poadeleted20]

I think the hourly rate is $0 for Jeff.

You take my point, sir.

 

[Bill Watson]

I have a 250XL and keep looking at the 300XL's for /G


I don't really enjoy wiring behind the instrument panel. The thought of me paying someone to do it just blasphemy an goes against everything I stand for.

Seems like you give up a lot by having anything without WAAS. I trained and flew behind a G300 for 1000+ hours. It was a great alternative to an ADF and opened the door to that first generation of GPS lateral-guidance only approaches but that's a generation or two ago.

Replacing a G250 with a G300 just so you can file /G doesn't add much. I'm thinking that IFR certification will require a separate indicator and an annunciator panel. Not a simple upgrade. Lots of wiring there.

I fly a G430W feeding an experimental panel now.

 

[philiplane]

Sorry guys, you seem to miss the point. It would be $2K all-in, installed, test flown, flight manual supplement, 337 filed, etc. No extras.

Total parts are $500 for the GPS, $75 for an AT-575 antenna, $250 for a dedicated MD40-65 indicator, and the rest for installation. If your plane has a loran or VFR GPS already, this fits in the same place, uses the same antenna mount, and plugs into the same power & grounds. Total install time of this unit is about 10 hours, and most of that is building the harness from the unit to the indicator, and to the altitude source.

I have done several of them in older planes that are not worth spending $15k on something state of the art. But you still get the ability to file /G, do GPS non-precision approaches, and generally get out of the dinosaur era.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/131070918959?ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1555.l2649

 

[gismo]

I had a KLN94/KX155A installed in the Aztec to replace its VFR GPS and a KX170B. After doing it, I found myself wishing I'd put a 430 or 530 in for what would've been the marginal cost increase.

If you do the work yourself and don't place a high value on your time, installing a "cheap" IFR GPS can make sense but if you're paying shop rates for the installation, you'll be way ahead if you put in something with WAAS approaches.

 

[Ted]

If you do the work yourself and don't place a high value on your time, installing a "cheap" IFR GPS can make sense but if you're paying shop rates for the installation, you'll be way ahead if you put in something with WAAS approaches.

Exactly. This was 4 years ago when I did the work, and I was just happy to have /G. I got talked into the KLN94/KX155A because someone was pulling them out for a 430 (imagine that...) and so I got the pair "cheap" ($4k at the time).

Today I wouldn't put anything in a plane that doesn't have WAAS and I consider it to be a major positive for a go-places IFR plane. Of course, different needs for different missions.

 

[philiplane]

If you do the work yourself and don't place a high value on your time, installing a "cheap" IFR GPS can make sense but if you're paying shop rates for the installation, you'll be way ahead if you put in something with WAAS approaches.

Which is the exact opposite of this thread, cheap IFR GPS.

ANything with WAAS is going to be $8-10K out the door, since the cheapest WAAS unit is the CNX80 at $5K used, plus a $1100 indicator, plus 40 hours of install labor...

 

[Ted]

Which is the exact opposite of this thread, cheap IFR GPS.

ANything with WAAS is going to be $8-10K out the door, since the cheapest WAAS unit is the CNX80 at $5K used, plus a $1100 indicator, plus 40 hours of install labor...

And unless your labor is free, that 40 hours of labor is going to be the same for your old Garmin 300 as for your 650.

 

[philiplane]

That's true of the Garmin 300 versus the Garmin 430. The KLN 94 is worse, it is far more labor intensive to install than a 430, especially if you have to interface to a King KG-102 remote gyro in the tail. (If you have a slaved HSI)

But back once more to the topic, the Apollo 2001 with a dedicated MD40-65 indicator takes less than a quarter of that time to install. Less than two days, total. Even at the national average of $85 hourly, you have less than $1400 in labor to install $1000 worth of parts. Less total cost than the KLN94 box alone.

There are no other IFR GPS units that can be installed for anywhere near the cost of the Apollo 2001, especially if you consider product support. The successor to it, the Apollo GX series, suffers from bad displays, and the display manufacturer discontinued them four years ago, so Garmin dropped support as well. But they still support the older 2001 through Garmin AT in Oregon. Go figure.

I did avionics for a living for ten years, so I know all the ins and outs of all the major manufacturers, the used equipment market, etc.

 

[JHW]

That's true of the Garmin 300 versus the Garmin 430. The KLN 94 is worse, it is far more labor intensive to install than a 430, especially if you have to interface to a King KG-102 remote gyro in the tail. (If you have a slaved HSI)

But back once more to the topic, the Apollo 2001 with a dedicated MD40-65 indicator takes less than a quarter of that time to install. Less than two days, total. Even at the national average of $85 hourly, you have less than $1400 in labor to install $1000 worth of parts. Less total cost than the KLN94 box alone.

There are no other IFR GPS units that can be installed for anywhere near the cost of the Apollo 2001, especially if you consider product support. The successor to it, the Apollo GX series, suffers from bad displays, and the display manufacturer discontinued them four years ago, so Garmin dropped support as well. But they still support the older 2001 through Garmin AT in Oregon. Go figure.

I did avionics for a living for ten years, so I know all the ins and outs of all the major manufacturers, the used equipment market, etc.

depending on where you mount it w.r.t. Your field of view, you might save with the 430 since you might get by with no annunciator panel.

 

[poadeleted20]

But back once more to the topic, the Apollo 2001 with a dedicated MD40-65 indicator takes less than a quarter of that time to install. Less than two days, total. Even at the national average of $85 hourly, you have less than $1400 in labor to install $1000 worth of parts. Less total cost than the KLN94 box alone.

Having flown with one of those old Apollos, I can say that at that price, you're getting what you pay for, and nothing more. Note also that in six years, you're going to have to have a WAAS GPS unless you only fly where there's no transponder required now -- you might also factor that into your thinking.

 

[philiplane]

depending on where you mount it w.r.t. Your field of view, you might save with the 430 since you might get by with no annunciator panel.

The MD40-65 CDI has the annunciator lights built in. You do not need the receiver to be in your primary field of view, unlike the 430 series. You will always have the CDI in your primary field, obviously.

 

[seneca2e]

Philiplane you mentioned there are a few cheap IFR GPS options with the Apollo 2001 NMS being one. Can you review the other candidates in the cheap IFR Gps arena?

Also are there different versions of the 2001 NMS to be aware of?

Thanks for the info!

 

[JHW]

as mentioned my many here, it's the installation that makes or breaks the "cheap" part of this. Here's how my cheap setup turned out. It does everything I need. In the photo you can that I also added something else to make the plane IFR legal, since a friend was going to use it for his checkride and I expected a fsdo lookover.

 

[poadeleted21]

Philiplane you mentioned there are a few cheap IFR GPS options with the Apollo 2001 NMS being one. Can you review the other candidates in the cheap IFR Gps arena?

Also are there different versions of the 2001 NMS to be aware of?

Thanks for the info!

Let me save you some time and money. I bought a 2001 at Philips suggestion 4 years ago. Wound up giving it away after it gathered enough dust in my office. I then bought a KLN89B. My planes in the shop right now getting the GNS530 updated to WAAS. Save your pennies, a GNS430 is as cheap as it gets.

 

[seneca2e]

Why did you never install it?

I think Philips suggestion is very good actually. To get a IFR certified GPS so you can file /G for $1500-$2000 is very attractive. Of course you can't compare it to a 14 to 18 thousand dollar new unit with all the bells and whistles. I can't and don't want to spend that kind of money. The cheap IFR GPS approach(knowing full well most are going to use Foreflight and a IPAD for advisory navigation) is exactly what I want to accomplish. In our case we are about to lose our lone ground based approach at our home airport and this is happening more and more. So to be able to have basic IFR approach legality is paramount.

 

[poadeleted21]

Why did you never install it?

I think Philips suggestion is very good actually. To get a IFR certified GPS so you can file /G for $1500-$2000 is very attractive. Of course you can't compare it to a 14 to 18 thousand dollar new unit with all the bells and whistles. I can't and don't want to spend that kind of money. The cheap IFR GPS approach(knowing full well most are going to use Foreflight and a IPAD for advisory navigation) is exactly what I want to accomplish. In our case we are about to lose our lone ground based approach at our home airport and this is happening more and more. So to be able to have basic IFR approach legality is paramount.

Throw in a $750-$1000 annunciator, a CDI, the 337 and AFMS paperwork, the limited size of the 2001 database, limited functionality, long term support, install cost, "while were in there" cost etc... There's a reason you can pick them up cheap. When I got mine in the mail, I just couldn't hold my nose and pay the money to have it installed. For few hundred more you can get a KLN89B and at least it will hold most of a database and you can plug a KLN94 in later on. 300XL would be the minimum unit I'd consider but I'd still go with a straight 430 over a 300XL, you get more functionality, don't have to have an external annunciator and get a NAV/COMM, nice color map and upgrade ability. I went through these same mental exercises for a couple of years.

 

[seneca2e]

Well I feel you on your argument but as Philips points out if you put the Mid Continent indicator in there and dedicate it to the GPS no annunciator/switch is required. If you use a shared vor head then an annunciator/switch becomes necessary but you save the cost of the Mid Continent head. Unless the FAA is contrary I don't see where this would run many $$ to get installed.

I actually am also thinking of the GX50 or GX60 as well despite the Russian roulette of the displays. I don't think all of them are gonna suddenly go bad and they're a pretty darn good IFR gps.

 

[poadeleted21]

Well I feel you on your argument but as Philips points out if you put the Mid Continent indicator in there and dedicate it to the GPS no annunciator/switch is required. If you use a shared vor head then an annunciator/switch becomes necessary but you save the cost of the Mid Continent head. Unless the FAA is contrary I don't see where this would run many $$ to get installed.

I actually am also thinking of the GX50 or GX60 as well despite the Russian roulette of the displays. I don't think all of them are gonna suddenly go bad and they're a pretty darn good IFR gps.

Philips numbers are very optimistic. I'd expect at the very least $3,000 to get it all setup probably closer to $4,000 when the dust settles.

First, the IFR version of this GPS can be hard to find, so when it breaks there's not going to be another one laying around to toss in. 2nd that indicator is $1250 and bare bones. I'd expect at least 15 hours shop time to install in the best case scenario. It's going to be on a 337 also, which can be a PITA. Everybody who doesn't have an IFR certified GPS wants one and they want it cheaper than a 430. Check the threads here they're countless. There's a reason it's a $400 GPS. It's for that guy who has a crapped out one and wants to toss a working one back in.

Oh, I don't think the GX50 is approach certified.

I talked myself into his advice and see you doing the same mental gymnastics I did. So so so so glad I didn't pay to have it installed.

IMHO, the 430 is the best deal out there now.

At the very least, look into a 155XL.

 

[philiplane]

Well I feel you on your argument but as Philips points out if you put the Mid Continent indicator in there and dedicate it to the GPS no annunciator/switch is required. If you use a shared vor head then an annunciator/switch becomes necessary but you save the cost of the Mid Continent head. Unless the FAA is contrary I don't see where this would run many $$ to get installed.

I actually am also thinking of the GX50 or GX60 as well despite the Russian roulette of the displays. I don't think all of them are gonna suddenly go bad and they're a pretty darn good IFR gps.

The problem with the KLN89B is also the display. It is over $600 for the display, plus labor. They fail at a far higher rate than the Apollo GX series, and I would never recommend the KLN89B for that reason alone. The KLN 90 an 94 are much better units that don't suffer the display failures. But they are more expensive than the 89B.

There is no "limited functionality" of the 2001 or GX50 compared to the KLN89B. They use the EXACT same database material, fly the EXACT same approaches, and get you there just the same. If you want more functionality, of course you can plunk down six times the price for a GNS430 installation, and more for the GTN series now.

Former Part 145 Avionics Repair Station Chief Inspector, Garmin & Aspen dealer, current avionics technician, and A&P/IA/CFI

 

[poadeleted20]

To get a IFR certified GPS so you can file /G for $1500-$2000 is very attractive.

I still don't believe you can get an IFR approach certified GPS in your plane from scratch for $2K unless you have both the skill and the approval of a supervising A&P to do most (if not all) of the work yourself. Have it done professionally, and I don't see any way to stay under $4K.

 

[poadeleted21]

I still don't believe you can get an IFR approach certified GPS in your plane from scratch for $2K unless you have both the skill and the approval of a supervising A&P to do most (if not all) of the work yourself. Have it done professionally, and I don't see any way to stay under $4K.

You're going to need an IA to sign the 337. I got a transplant kln89b system cheaper than the hardware he's advertising. After the dust settled was in it for $3600ish.

 

[seneca2e]

Okay I'll add a few facts as well. The GX50/GX60 is approach certified. I also called Apollo product support and talked to a guy named Ted today. The GX50 and 60 are still supported($500 flat rate repairs $400 dealer cost) but they don't have any displays left for them if you suffer that fate. The 2001 NMS is currently repairable as well but will be discontinued in April so not much time left there however you probably would be just as well off to find another functioning unit rather than send it in for a $500 repair anyway. Database updates will be available even after April as will the GX50/60 series updates.

Talking to a avionics shop this time I was told displays for the KLN94 were no longer available so there's more financial risk to buying one of those and having it go bad-though I don't think that's any reason to rule it out completely. They are nicer than the 89b or 90b. The 89b and 90b are both cheap to buy though so not much risk if the display did go bad.

I'd like more info on the indicator required for the 89b, 90b, kln94 if I go that route. Though I think I like the Gx50/60 with a MD40-65l(I think that works for the 2001nms and the GX50/60) the best. I wouldn't rule out a dirt cheap 2001NMS if I could get a spare but they are going to be non repairable as of April but see above for my thoughts on that.

Also the Garmin 430 non waas 28 volt unit is essentially nonrepairable ($3200 update required on com board). The 14 volt unit is still okay. Bear in mind that these things though nice require a flat rate repair higher than the cost of the components in our discussed cheap IFR install. All food for thought on an interesting topic.

As someone mentioned the market is so ripe for a cheap IFR GPS to hit the market it's unreal right now. 12 to 14k for a new Garmin plus upkeep is just too high for those of us on a reduced calorie diet lol.

 

[poadeleted20]

As someone mentioned the market is so ripe for a cheap IFR GPS to hit the market it's unreal right now. 12 to 14k for a new Garmin plus upkeep is just too high for those of us on a reduced calorie diet lol.

The market may be ripe, but the cost to design, develop, certify, and put into production such a unit is so great that the unit cost over the likely number of buyers would not be what you call "cheap". In theory, it's possible this cost function may change as a result of the law regarding changes in certification standards now going through Congress, but indications are that it will be more than three years before the FAA will be able to issue any new regulations based on that law, plus probably another year or more before such a new product can come to market -- and at this point, it's anybody's guess what those new regulations will look like.

 

[kgruber]

Installing anything less than a 430W is just bad money. There is no free lunch in avionics.

 

[poadeleted21]

Okay I'll add a few facts as well. The GX50/GX60 is approach certified. I also called Apollo product support and talked to a guy named Ted today. The GX50 and 60 are still supported($500 flat rate repairs $400 dealer cost) but they don't have any displays left for them if you suffer that fate. The 2001 NMS is currently repairable as well but will be discontinued in April so not much time left there however you probably would be just as well off to find another functioning unit rather than send it in for a $500 repair anyway. Database updates will be available even after April as will the GX50/60 series updates.

Talking to a avionics shop this time I was told displays for the KLN94 were no longer available so there's more financial risk to buying one of those and having it go bad-though I don't think that's any reason to rule it out completely. They are nicer than the 89b or 90b. The 89b and 90b are both cheap to buy though so not much risk if the display did go bad.

I'd like more info on the indicator required for the 89b, 90b, kln94 if I go that route. Though I think I like the Gx50/60 with a MD40-65l(I think that works for the 2001nms and the GX50/60) the best. I wouldn't rule out a dirt cheap 2001NMS if I could get a spare but they are going to be non repairable as of April but see above for my thoughts on that.

Also the Garmin 430 non waas 28 volt unit is essentially nonrepairable ($3200 update required on com board). The 14 volt unit is still okay. Bear in mind that these things though nice require a flat rate repair higher than the cost of the components in our discussed cheap IFR install. All food for thought on an interesting topic.

As someone mentioned the market is so ripe for a cheap IFR GPS to hit the market it's unreal right now. 12 to 14k for a new Garmin plus upkeep is just too high for those of us on a reduced calorie diet lol.

Last I heard the flat rate $1000 repairs were getting scarce on parts for the 430s and don't have much of a warranty. i.e. they're just fixing them and not refurbing them. I wouldn't call $3,200 to basically turn it into a basically new GNS430W "non-repairable" That turns it into an $8,000 practically new unit even if it's clapped out when you send it to them. I was just faced with the $1000 vs $3200 option and chose the latter.

There's not much of a market left for the 2001/89B/GX60 era of GPSes, that's why they show up on eBay dirt cheap... They're not worth installing.

I found a KLN89B transplant system that I purchased for $800 (that's CDI/Annunciator and radio) it was $3,500 after the dust settled. I kicked myself for months for not going with a 430.

 

[seneca2e]

N35 they indicated or so I thought that if you sent them a 28 volt non waas unit it'd be $3200 to do it. Are you saying if the problem was not in the com board they still would offer the flat rate $1000 repair on it? Either way just one time repairs on these Garmin 430's-which are themselves getting old these days-are more expensive than these other systems combined for components to install. It all comes down if you can get them installed for a $1000 or so. I can since I'm an A&P/IA though my perception is that it's getting easier to get this done and approved-and it's about time with portable units way better than even the current panel mount stuff in most cases. If one goes the Avionics shop route most are gonna charge $3000 one way or the other to do it-that's not what we're talking about here. Clearly that is impractical and a bad use of funds.