In the one hand knows not what the other is doing department.

Arnold

Arnold

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Arnold
Today I received an e-mail from the FAA announcing a new educational brochure. Unfortunately it fails to mention the guidance will be obsolete in just 20 days.
The message contained reference to an FAA notice titled:
"Communications a Key Component of Safe Surface Operations, 2nd edition"
​
The link provided indicates it was recently published:
https://www.faasafety.gov/files/notices/2010/Jun/Communications_A_Key_Component_brochure.pdf



I thought to myself that this was an excellent time to issue a new brochure because the FAA will soon make two important communications changes.


First, "position and hold" will be replaced with "line up and wait." I can find no official FAA announcement to this effect, however on December 1, 2009 NTSB Chairman Deborah A.P. Hersman, in her remarks at the FAA International Runway Safety Summit held in Washington, DC, stated "[W]e were recently advised that the FAA soon plans to adopt . . . the use of “line up and wait” instead of “position and hold” to instruct pilots to enter a runway and wait for takeoff clearance." See HERE scroll down to the eighth paragraph.


Second, FAA announced that it will be changing taxi clearance procedures to require explicit runway crossing clearances (effective June 30, 2010) rather than the implicit clearance contained in prior communications policies. See http://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Notice/N7110.528.pdf
Imagine my surprise when this newly issued brochure restated the old, soon to be abandoned policies and phraseology and contradicted both changes on the same page. See page 6 of the brochure.
 
ROLMAO !! FWIW Line up and Wait is stupid. Position and hold makes so much more sense to me.
 
picky, picky, picky

Arnold said:
Today I received an e-mail from the FAA announcing a new educational brochure. Unfortunately it fails to mention the guidance will be obsolete in just 20 days.
The message contained reference to an FAA notice titled:
"Communications a Key Component of Safe Surface Operations, 2nd edition"
​
The link provided indicates it was recently published:
https://www.faasafety.gov/files/notices/2010/Jun/Communications_A_Key_Component_brochure.pdf



I thought to myself that this was an excellent time to issue a new brochure because the FAA will soon make two important communications changes.


First, "position and hold" will be replaced with "line up and wait." I can find no official FAA announcement to this effect, however on December 1, 2009 NTSB Chairman Deborah A.P. Hersman, in her remarks at the FAA International Runway Safety Summit held in Washington, DC, stated "[W]e were recently advised that the FAA soon plans to adopt . . . the use of “line up and wait” instead of “position and hold” to instruct pilots to enter a runway and wait for takeoff clearance." See HERE scroll down to the eighth paragraph.


Second, FAA announced that it will be changing taxi clearance procedures to require explicit runway crossing clearances (effective June 30, 2010) rather than the implicit clearance contained in prior communications policies. See http://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Notice/N7110.528.pdf

Imagine my surprise when this newly issued brochure restated the old, soon to be abandoned policies and phraseology and contradicted both changes on the same page. See page 6 of the brochure.
Click to expand...
 
When they then say "clearance cancelled, remain clear of the runway" what will you say?

OffCenter said:
When they tell me to "Line up and wait", I'll reply, "Behind who?". :D
Click to expand...
 
AdamZ said:
ROLMAO !! FWIW Line up and Wait is stupid. Position and hold makes so much more sense to me.
Click to expand...

"Line up and wait" is an ICAO standard. This is what you hear once you leave the USA.

Just more things to align the US with the rest of the world. :rolleyes2:
 
Last edited:
Rotor&Wing said:
"Line up and wait" is an ICAO standard. This is what you hear once you leave the USA.

Just more things to align the US with the rest of the world. :rolleyes2:
Click to expand...

It's still stupid phraseology. Makes little sense. ICAO should adopt "Position and Hold."
 
SCCutler said:
It's still stupid phraseology. Makes little sense. ICAO should adopt "Position and Hold."
Click to expand...
There are 183 member countries in ICAO. 182 of them do it one way, we do it another. And they do have a reason for doing it that way -- so the common word "hold" doesn't result in a "hold short" clearance being interpreted as "position and hold," just as we don't use the word "cleared" when issuing taxi clearances lest it be confused with a takeoff clearance.
 
SCCutler said:
It's still stupid phraseology. Makes little sense. ICAO should adopt "Position and Hold."
Click to expand...

"Position and Hold" replaced "Taxi Into Position and Hold" a few years ago. "Taxi Into Position and Hold" made good sense, it described what the pilot was to do and I can't recall any pilot ever being confused by it. A fair number of pilots apparently believed "Position and Hold" meant "Hold Your Position", because that's what they did. I'd prefer a return to "Taxi Into Position and Hold", "Line Up and Wait" makes as much sense as "Position and Hold". Of course, for those that make an effort to be current on procedures and phraseology it doesn't matter what standard phrase is used.
 
Ron Levy said:
There are 183 member countries in ICAO. 182 of them do it one way, we do it another. And they do have a reason for doing it that way -- so the common word "hold" doesn't result in a "hold short" clearance being interpreted as "position and hold," just as we don't use the word "cleared" when issuing taxi clearances lest it be confused with a takeoff clearance.
Click to expand...

I know all that, I am just being a curmudgeonly old fart.
 
Ron Levy said:
There are 183 member countries in ICAO. 182 of them do it one way, we do it another.
Click to expand...

What's the pilot population of the US and what is the total pilot population of other ICAO member countries?
 
Ron Levy said:
There are 183 member countries in ICAO. 182 of them do it one way, we do it another. And they do have a reason for doing it that way -- so the common word "hold" doesn't result in a "hold short" clearance being interpreted as "position and hold," just as we don't use the word "cleared" when issuing taxi clearances lest it be confused with a takeoff clearance.
Click to expand...

It still reminds me of the "but Dad, all the other kids are doing [whatever]"
argument.
 
Bob Noel said:
It still reminds me of the "but Dad, all the other kids are doing [whatever]" argument.
Click to expand...
Except in this case, the other kids have a good reason for doing it their way, and we don't have a good counterargument. And it makes more sense than the last time we did it their way (airspace reclassification, where we took meaningful names and replaced them with meaningless letters).
 
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