IGI/AGI privileges

TMetzinger

TMetzinger

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Tim
With the recent FAR 61 rewrite, it's clear that instrument ground training will require the IGI.

My question is about the ability of an AGI/IGI to give simulator instruction.

I believe, though it's not perfectly clear to me, that an AGI/IGI (someone who holds both ratings on his ground instructor certificate) can give fully loggable instruction in a PCATD/AATD/FTD/Sim, and the limits on that time as it applies to certificates and ratings are spelled out elsewhere in 61 - 20 hours of the instrument rating, 50 of the commercial, 2.5 for the private.

I believe an IGI can give an IPC in an AATD or Flight Sim (that is approved for that - the lower levels without the full visuals don't permit the circling approach).

My intent while working on the CFI-A is to teach in the Redbird AATD, and teach instrument students, give IPC's, as well a set of scenarios for rated pilots on risk management, task saturation, fuel exhaustion, VFR into IMC, G1000 failures, etc, that will also serve as an IPC for instrument rated pilots.

Am I off base? Do I have to have the CFI credentials to teach in these devices?
 
when i was in cfi school, we looked up this question and determined that NO you must be a CFI to instruct in a simulator. I forget how we came to that conclusion. but i remember that was the answer. sorry.... i'll try to find it.
 
I've heard this, and can see some common sense to it. But let's look at the definitions... From 61.1:
(2) Authorized instructor means --
(i) A person who holds a valid ground instructor certificate issued under part 61 or part 143 of this chapter when conducting ground training in accordance with the privileges and limitations of his or her ground instructor certificate; That's ME! as long as I'm giving ground training in accordance with my privileges (which as an AGI/IGI, cover every certificate and rating).

(6) Flight training means that training, other than ground training, received from an authorized instructor in flight in an aircraft. Sim/FTD training is not in an aircraft, nor in flight.
(8) Ground training means that training, other than flight training, received from an authorized instructor. Therefore Sim training is Ground Training.

Therefore, training can be performed in a Sim by an appropriately rated Ground Instructor.

It makes sense since very little (2.5 hours) of private training can be done in a sim, you still need at least 10 hours of instrument training in an airplane for the instrument rating, and an appropriately rated flight instructor must sign you off for all practicals. So the real "flying" portion of either course still needs to be done in an airplane with a CFI.


But I'd really love it if someone can show a different logic chain, or a counsel opinion to settle the matter.
 
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ntbjounin said:
when i was in cfi school, we looked up this question and determined that NO you must be a CFI to instruct in a simulator. I forget how we came to that conclusion. but i remember that was the answer. sorry.... i'll try to find it.
Click to expand...

That cant be the answer, because some of the guys in the airline training depts are guys who cant hold a medical (and therefore a CFI rating). They are allowed to instruct in the training dept's sims... with AGI/IGI.
 
I have an unrelated question regarding IGI/AGI.

I took the tests and passed back in 2000 ish when I was still considering a career track in aviation.. (I was on target to finish up my IR, and much of the material to that point is the same).

I have not given any ground instruction in quite a few years.

I dont recall seeing exactly how a ground instructor returns to "currency"
Anyone have any answers?
 
You don't have to have a medical to hold or exercise a CFI certificate, as long as you don't act as PIC. Many many CFIs only give "advanced" instruction because they don't have a medical.

But you're right in that I know of at least one trainer who holds only a CFI-A, but gives sim instruction and it counts as instrument because he holds the IGI as well. And I'm almost POSITIVE that when I took a course at FlightSafety my instructor mentioned that they had some teachers with only Ground Instructor certificates. These guys would do the classroom and sim teaching but a CFI was required to sign the candidates off for their type rating checkrides. I think the CFI's conducted the evaluation sessions.

At airlines for the proficiency checks in the sim, I think they use Check Airmen (who may have CFIs or may be providing instruction under the language of the ATP certificate), not GIs. Maybe Greg or another airline pilot will chime in.
 
Doggtyred said:
I have an unrelated question regarding IGI/AGI.

I took the tests and passed back in 2000 ish when I was still considering a career track in aviation.. (I was on target to finish up my IR, and much of the material to that point is the same).

I have not given any ground instruction in quite a few years.

I dont recall seeing exactly how a ground instructor returns to "currency"
Anyone have any answers?
Click to expand...
You get an endorsement from a current CFI or ground instructor.

FAR... 61.217, which reads (today):
§ 61.217 Recent experience requirements.
The holder of a ground instructor certificate may not perform the duties of a ground instructor unless, within the preceding 12 months:
(a) The person has served for at least 3 months as a ground instructor; or
(b) The person has received an endorsement from an authorized ground or flight instructor certifying that the person has demonstrated satisfactory proficiency in the subject areas prescribed in § 61.213 (a)(3) and (a)(4), as applicable.

and which will read (on October 20):
61.217 Recent experience requirements.
The holder of a ground instructor certificate may not perform the duties of


a ground instructor unless the person can show that one of the following
occurred during the preceding 12 calendar months:
(a) Employment or activity as a ground instructor giving pilot, flight
instructor, or ground instructor training;
(b) Employment or activity as a flight instructor giving pilot, flight instructor, or ground instructor ground or flight training;
(c) Completion of an approved flight instructor refresher course and receipt of a graduation certificate for that course; or
(d) An endorsement from an authorized instructor certifying that the
person has demonstrated knowledge in the subject areas prescribed under § 61.213(a)(3) and (a)(4), as appropriate.​
Click to expand...
 
Yep, I was reading that. Still, since you don't have to be a 142 center to have a sim or FTD, the answer (if there is a clear one) should be in 61. 142 instructors have to have experience but don't have to hold certificates unless they are actually teaching in flight in an aircraft, in which case they have to be a CFI.

So far the only thing that's crystal clear and consistent is that you must be a CFI or an ATP to give instruction, in flight, in an aircraft, and the ATP privilege is pretty limited.
 
One other thing you might want to consider is that as an IGI, with a loggable simulator, you could run people through their 6 approaches if they are either still current, or less than 6 months out of currency, and not require the full IPC.
 
Doggtyred said:
That cant be the answer, because some of the guys in the airline training depts are guys who cant hold a medical (and therefore a CFI rating). They are allowed to instruct in the training dept's sims... with AGI/IGI.
Click to expand...

In airline training you are not required to hold a CFI or even a ground instructor rating to teach in the sim.
 
If you read the regs carefully, you'll find that training on the ground in a flight simulation device is not flight training, and notwithstanding the air carrier training exception, you only need the CFI (as opposed to GI) to give flight training.
 
Ron Levy said:
If you read the regs carefully, you'll find that training on the ground in a flight simulation device is not flight training, and notwithstanding the air carrier training exception, you only need the CFI (as opposed to GI) to give flight training.
Click to expand...
That's what I thought (and posted above). Thanks for confirming it.

Now, back to practice tests and syllabus development - I think I'll call it "The top 5 ways to die in an airplane" and have a scenario for each.
 
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