IFR minimums for 121's

ebykowsky

ebykowsky

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So my US Air flight from CAE to DCA (and ultimately to PIT) just got cancelled due to .5sm vis and 300ft. ceilings in Washington. Just wondering what the minimums are for a part 121 operation like US Air. Does the company set specific, stricter minimums, or do they just go by the FAR's?
 
ebykowsky said:
So my US Air flight from CAE to DCA (and ultimately to PIT) just got cancelled due to .5sm vis and 300ft. ceilings in Washington. Just wondering what the minimums are for a part 121 operation like US Air. Does the company set specific, stricter minimums, or do they just go by the FAR's?
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Is that current conditions, or forecast?
 
It can depend on the captain of the flight, IIRC. If they just upgraded to the equipment and/or destination, their minimums may be higher than published.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Is that current conditions, or forecast?
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Current, and the TAF's look really bad till 0900 tomorrow. We got onto the aircraft, sat there for 5 minutes, then the Capt. came over the intercom with, "I would like to welcome you aboard tonight, but..." I thought it was a joke until he finished and didn't say, "Just kidding" So after all that, we deboarded.
 
Anyway, now I'm flying from CAE to CLT to PIT, and I have a 34 minute connection to get to the extreme opposite end of the airport in CLT (end of the E terminal to end of the B terminal). Then, they said that I am allowed to claim a missing bag when my luggage inevitably gets to PIT late because of the short connection. Instead, I've got to come back to the airport the next day (2 hr bus ride round trip) to pick up the luggage instead of having it delivered. Plus, I've got 5 classes tomorrow. Sorry, just had to vent a bit... Wish me luck!
 
ebykowsky said:
Anyway, now I'm flying from CAE to CLT to PIT, and I have a 34 minute connection to get to the extreme opposite end of the airport in CLT (end of the E terminal to end of the B terminal). Then, they said that I am allowed to claim a missing bag when my luggage inevitably gets to PIT late because of the short connection. Instead, I've got to come back to the airport the next day (2 hr bus ride round trip) to pick up the luggage instead of having it delivered. Plus, I've got 5 classes tomorrow. Sorry, just had to vent a bit... Wish me luck!
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That sounds like US Airways....and the customer service person in the New Delhi call center probably thinks that is perfectly doable.
 
Nope, just talked to some really accommodating desk agents who helped a ton. They warned me about the connection time, but I said I had to be there tonight, and they went around the "35 min connection time minimum" in order to get me on the flight. I was probably a bit harsh on them on that first post. Otherwise, I was flying out tomorrow morning.
 
The company has minimums set in their op specs. There are also FAA minimums. There could be any number of factors. If the Captain has less than 100 hours PIC in type (or 50 hours with 50 landings) They have to had a half mile to the vis, and 100 feet to the DA/MDA if I remember correctly. There could have also been a multitude of other reasons. Just because that was the weather at the time, doesn't mean they canceled for it. They could have canceled due to forecast weather at the destination.
 
Any guesses the flight canceled, not for the low minimums but the traffic backed up by the weather. Many times ATC will restrict traffic flow to the point that the airline needs to use /send that jet somewhere else.

Your flight to "A" is delayed for hours.
A flight coming out of "A" to connect to "B" is also hours delayed.
They use your plane to replace the missing inbound from "A" to use on the flight to "B" to keep that flight on time.
 
ebykowsky said:
So my US Air flight from CAE to DCA (and ultimately to PIT) just got cancelled due to .5sm vis and 300ft. ceilings in Washington. Just wondering what the minimums are for a part 121 operation like US Air. Does the company set specific, stricter minimums, or do they just go by the FAR's?
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Were you actually on USAirways or one of their express carriers? Most Express carriers usually have Cat I mins, where most majors have CAT III mins. Not sure what DCA's ILSes have, might not go down below CAT I or II. Like mentioned before, the CA may have been a high mins. That combined with wx down to CAT I mins could cause a cancelation.


I don't get interested in visibility until it gets down to 1/2 mi or so. Namely because we now have to do any approach that's lower than CAT I as an autoland... boooorrrring. Amazing technology, but I'd rather fly it.
 
Which way were they landing? There's no ILS to the south and higher minimums even to shoot the ILS to runway 1 circle to one of the south runways. I think Air Wisconsin, Chautauqua, and PSA run that route for US Air. They should all be able to shoot CAT I mins but if landing south, the VOR approach to 19 doesn't go very low.
 
Could be but the winds were pretty low (in the 4kt range). Seems they would have given preference to the better instrument rwy in that situation. And yes it was a regional carrier in a little CRJ 200. I've just never had a flight cancelled for fog (except obviously numerous training flights). Anyway the transition in CLT went great since we landed very early and my bag even made it to PIT! I'm giving US Air a +1 despite the fact that I arrived 3 hrs late. Would've been +2 if they had biscoff or pretzles and +3 if they'd let me fly the plane---they gave some stupid argument about me not even having my full license and not being an employee and TSA this FAA that... So a plus one it is!
 
DCA is a bit of a special case. They get into a real pickle if they have to land to the south with low ceilings. The minimums for for the LDA 19 approach are 800 & 2 1/4 for category D aircraft.

The other direction to runway 01, they have a regular ILS and a CatII approach with 100ft DA and RVR 1200, but depending on the tailwind limits for the various airlines, they sometimes get stuck and can't use that one. The only times I have seen this happen is with frontal passage that brings rain and low-ceilings. If it is the pea-soup fall fog, there is usually no wind and they can do the Cat II approach (which is a bit spooky as a passenger because all you see in the last seconds before touchdown is water).

I have ridden the bus in from IAD once and spent a refuel stop in Richmond until the weather cleared. Other than that, I am quite impressed in what gnarly weather they manage to maintain near normal operations at this little county airport.
 
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There is really no easy answer to your question because there is a myriad of reasons that something like this could happen. There are some regional carriers that are CAT II qualified, but dispatching the flight without good forecast and good alternatives can get dicey sometimes. Depends on weather, fuel, aircraft, airport, crew etc. There are some exemptions to launching with marginal alternatives also so as you can see no real good way to know without asking cappy. Could just be an excuse to move flights around. IDK
 
Thanks for all the responses. I always thought each carrier would have a consistent minimum for each situation but I guess that's not so. I've never flown IFR so I didn't know all that about approach categories--glad to hear that the ultimate decision still goes to the pilot.
 
HPNPilot1200 said:
Which way were they landing? There's no ILS to the south and higher minimums even to shoot the ILS to runway 1 circle to one of the south runways. I think Air Wisconsin, Chautauqua, and PSA run that route for US Air. They should all be able to shoot CAT I mins but if landing south, the VOR approach to 19 doesn't go very low.
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Circling off the Runway 1 ILS to Runway 19 is simply not done, at least I've never seen it down. It gets too dicey with P-56 and the tall buildings in Arlington. Also, CTL is 1,000 required ceiling and 3 for most Part 121 operators so if the wind requires Runway 19 and the weather is marginal you take a shot at the LDA 19, unless you are RNP AR in which case you fly the RNP AR to 19.
 
You never know whats on MEL. A lot of them allow dispatch with additional operational restrictions.
 
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