IFR: I Fly, Right?

bluesky74656

Line Up and Wait
Joined
Dec 31, 2005
Messages
746
Location
Brecksville, OH
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Display name:
Todd Kooser
Well, I just finished my second official IFR lesson. But I'm going to start at the beginning and chronicle my first lesson. I've always enjoyed reading about other people's lessons, so I figured I'd share my own.

We started with a good bit of pre-flight briefing talking about exactly what I was going to learn - how to fly by the numbers. He drew out a six pack, drew an arrow through the AI, DG, and TC and said these three instruments show you your heading. He then drew an arrow through the AI, Altimiter, and VSI, and said these three instruments show you your altitude. But, he said, we can break it down even further. The AI shows you how the aircraft is oriented, but doesn't really show you what direction it's going or how its altitude is changing. Likewise, the altimeter and heading indicator show you what your current heading and altitude are, but don't show you how those are changing. So eventually, once established in a particular attitude (IE, constant turn, constant ascent/descent, straight and level), you only really need to reference these two instruments, except to tell you when to end your turn or descent.

This was the part I had a bit of a problem with, because I know that the VSI lags noticibly and the TC also shows roll information, which can make it bounce in turbulence. What do you guys think of this approach?

We finished the pre-flight briefing by going over the completion standards for what he called Module One of his IFR syllabus: being able to complete a "vertical s" maneuver, which is a one minute timed 180 turn and 500 foot descent; and being able to complete a partial-panel ILS.

We started soon after takeoff by reinforcing that trim controls airspeed, power controls vertical speed, and the rudder controls the turn coordinator. He said that for at least the beginning part of this training he wanted me to use the yoke as little as possible. So we trimmed for level flight at 90 knots, then he had me turn using only the rudders, and change altitude using primarily (but not exclusively) the throttle.

After a few minutes practicing this, he had me try the vertical s. My first couple were a disaster, as I would get fixated on whichever instrument wasn't cooperating, and meanwhile the other would get completely out of whack. Eventually, though, I managed to complete it to somewhat acceptable standards.

The instructor then tuned the ILS of a nearby airport and put me on a vector towards it. He gave me a simple rule for intercept-- once the needle starts moving, you start moving. When it slows down, you slow down. When it stops, you stop. I managed to hold the localizer to within a dot or two, but the glideslope was off at least two or three. I couldn't get the descent rate stabilized-- first I would have too little power, then too much, but I couldn't get it just right. I was so focused on keeping the TC and VSI in the right spot that I didn't really look at the LOC/GS indicator a lot. The instructor opined that this was a good thing, and that it's much better to hold a stable course down the localizer than be chasing it back and forth. He had me look up at about 200 feet, way high and fast, and quickly reconfigure for landing.

We used the opportunity to take on some relatively cheap fuel, then launched for the quick hop back to Burke Lakefront. He again set me up on a vector for the ILS, and I used the same intercept technique. This time I was more assertive about using the yoke to help maintain my descent rate, and managed to keep both the glideslope and localizer within a dot or two. He let me look up (I never used foggles the whole flight, but was good about keeping my head down) at about 100 feet, and I quickly reconfigured for landing and set her down.

I'm really interested to hear what people think about the TC/VSI scan method. I had never heard it before, but it seemed to work out pretty well.

That's it for now, I'll try to type out lesson two a little later.
 
Sounds great Todd! The IR is a great tool. Really taught me to be so much more in tune with the plane when I fly. Next year you can file to come to the flybq! By the way wedding is coming up isn't it? Accept my early congrats.
 
We started with a good bit of pre-flight briefing talking about exactly what I was going to learn - how to fly by the numbers. He drew out a six pack, drew an arrow through the AI, DG, and TC and said these three instruments show you your heading. He then drew an arrow through the AI, Altimiter, and VSI, and said these three instruments show you your altitude. But, he said, we can break it down even further. The AI shows you how the aircraft is oriented, but doesn't really show you what direction it's going or how its altitude is changing. Likewise, the altimeter and heading indicator show you what your current heading and altitude are, but don't show you how those are changing. So eventually, once established in a particular attitude (IE, constant turn, constant ascent/descent, straight and level), you only really need to reference these two instruments, except to tell you when to end your turn or descent.

This was the part I had a bit of a problem with, because I know that the VSI lags noticibly and the TC also shows roll information, which can make it bounce in turbulence. What do you guys think of this approach?
I don't remember training you, Todd, but it sounds like I was giving the lesson.

We finished the pre-flight briefing by going over the completion standards for what he called Module One of his IFR syllabus: being able to complete a "vertical s" maneuver, which is a one minute timed 180 turn and 500 foot descent; and being able to complete a partial-panel ILS.
I'm good with the first part, but trying to introduce a partial-panel ILS on the first lesson is way outside what I do. I don't even introduce basic radio nav tracking until Day 3 of our 10-day course, and we do full panel first, then partial-panel.

We started soon after takeoff by reinforcing that trim controls airspeed, power controls vertical speed, and the rudder controls the turn coordinator. He said that for at least the beginning part of this training he wanted me to use the yoke as little as possible. So we trimmed for level flight at 90 knots, then he had me turn using only the rudders, and change altitude using primarily (but not exclusively) the throttle.
Sounds pretty good.

After a few minutes practicing this, he had me try the vertical s. My first couple were a disaster, as I would get fixated on whichever instrument wasn't cooperating, and meanwhile the other would get completely out of whack. Eventually, though, I managed to complete it to somewhat acceptable standards.
Again, sounds good. However, at this point, I'd be moving on to other basic instrument flying tasks, including changing speeds and configurations, as well as doing more climbs, descents, and climbing and descending turns, first full-panel, then partial panel. That should be enough for the first lesson.

The instructor then tuned the ILS of a nearby airport and put me on a vector towards it. He gave me a simple rule for intercept-- once the needle starts moving, you start moving. When it slows down, you slow down. When it stops, you stop. I managed to hold the localizer to within a dot or two, but the glideslope was off at least two or three. I couldn't get the descent rate stabilized-- first I would have too little power, then too much, but I couldn't get it just right. I was so focused on keeping the TC and VSI in the right spot that I didn't really look at the LOC/GS indicator a lot. The instructor opined that this was a good thing, and that it's much better to hold a stable course down the localizer than be chasing it back and forth. He had me look up at about 200 feet, way high and fast, and quickly reconfigure for landing.
I think that's way too much for Lesson 1, and while I do teach those techniques for localizer tracking in close, I first teach people about the relationship between heading, course, and needle position.

All in all, this seems a big of a strange syllabus to me, but if it works, it works.
 
Lesson 2:

My instructor had a last minute charter pop up, so he had me fly with another instructor doing more of the same. As I was preflighting he quizzed me a bit, which showed me just how much I've forgotten since I started taking the King home ground school courses a year and a half ago.

After takeoff, he took the plane and had me put the foggles on, then gave me a few vectors as if he were ATC. I was in a different plane than I was in the first lesson (a 160HP vs 180HP 172), so I was having a bit of trouble finding the right power setting to maintain altitude. I also started having trouble flying only by the VSI for altitude control-- by the time I noticed a trend, my altitude had slipped almost 100 feet and I had to recover quickly. Eventually I increased the frequency with which I referenced the altimeter, which helped maintain altitude.

Once he had vectored me to the practice area, we tried a few climbs and descents, a few climbing or descending turns, and then timed turns and compass turns. After my first lesson the instructor had mentioned that we'd be working on those, so I made sure to brush up on compass errors in turns, and therefore didn't really have much trouble with them. It was helpful to see for real just how much the compass would lead or lag, though. My timed turns were also pretty good, with the exception of remembering to hold altitude as I was fixating on the turn coordinator.

The instructor then took the plane and put me into a couple unusual attitudes. I recovered the plane just fine, but both times I did it only by reference to the AI, so next time I should probably have him take that away to get out of that habit.

Next he had me turn to intercept and track a VOR, and then he called up approach and asked them for the ILS back into Burke. Approach gave me a vector, and the instructor and I briefed the approach. Approach plates I remembered well from the ground school courses. Approach cleared me for the ILS, so as soon as the needle came alive I started my turn inbound. This instructor didn't like that method because our intercept vector was too close to the final approach course, he said if I started turning too early we'd never intercept. We descended to 2400', as indicated by the approach plate.

At one point he pointed out to me that the glideslope was alive, and it was showing that I was a bit high, so I started a descent to catch it. The instructor corrected me, saying that we hadn't yet reached the glideslope intercept point and that the glideslope was unreliable beyond it. Indeed, the glideslope indicator had swung back up and was showing that I was still well below it. In a couple miles I intercepted the glideslope and flew the ILS to minimums, where I "broke out" and made a rather nice landing.

This instructor showed me that I really have to go back over the knowledge course classes I took a while ago since I've lost some of the knowledge. He was also much more concerned about following a checklist. As I was taxiing out for takeoff he ran through a "pre-ifr" checklist, which checked the VSI, the turn coordinator, and the AI. And he caught me not IDing the VOR or localizer, which is a bust on a checkride.
 
I think that's way too much for Lesson 1, and while I do teach those techniques for localizer tracking in close, I first teach people about the relationship between heading, course, and needle position.

The way he taught the ILS was basically as a constant rate descent in a straight line, with the localizer needle providing the current direction information rather than the DG (which was covered for one of them). He said especially at this point he didn't want me chasing the needles, but only trying to maintain constant direction and vertical speed. That's his justification for teaching it this early.
 
The way he taught the ILS was basically as a constant rate descent in a straight line, with the localizer needle providing the current direction information rather than the DG (which was covered for one of them). He said especially at this point he didn't want me chasing the needles, but only trying to maintain constant direction and vertical speed. That's his justification for teaching it this early.
We at PIC have been doing this for over 30 years, and we're pretty well convinced we have refined things to the "best" way to do it. But that doesn't mean other less linear methods aren't effective.
 
Todd, get out the King series video for the IR rating and go through it...
Even though your CFI may want you to use a different method of scan it helps greatly to know how it should be done before you get into the plane...
Get some time on a rated simulator where they can dial in some turbulence and wind shear, which will help bring your scan up to speed...
Fly with a different CFI whenever you can... Two reasons:
It gets you over being nervous with strange person in the cockpit evaluating you, which is what will happen on the check ride...
And two, no one CFI knows it all - even if some think they do...
 
Be aware that the scan is situational awareness, and it takes time to develop. An understanding of what the instruments do, and the knowledge of how they relate to each other is necessary. But, when you are in the plane, try not to think about it too much! It will develop naturally, just takes time.

As far as ILS and needles go... "if its moving, you should be turning" always stuck with me. Another thing - if you are only making slight corrections on a localizer, make them with your feet. If I notice the needle has shifted from last glance but is not moving noticeably, I add light rudder pressure for 2-3 seconds.
 
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Well, I just finished my second official IFR lesson. But I'm going to start at the beginning and chronicle my first lesson. I've always enjoyed reading about other people's lessons, so I figured I'd share my own.

We started with a good bit of pre-flight briefing talking about exactly what I was going to learn - how to fly by the numbers. He drew out a six pack, drew an arrow through the AI, DG, and TC and said these three instruments show you your heading. He then drew an arrow through the AI, Altimiter, and VSI, and said these three instruments show you your altitude. But, he said, we can break it down even further. The AI shows you how the aircraft is oriented, but doesn't really show you what direction it's going or how its altitude is changing. Likewise, the altimeter and heading indicator show you what your current heading and altitude are, but don't show you how those are changing. So eventually, once established in a particular attitude (IE, constant turn, constant ascent/descent, straight and level), you only really need to reference these two instruments, except to tell you when to end your turn or descent.

This was the part I had a bit of a problem with, because I know that the VSI lags noticibly and the TC also shows roll information, which can make it bounce in turbulence. What do you guys think of this approach?

We finished the pre-flight briefing by going over the completion standards for what he called Module One of his IFR syllabus: being able to complete a "vertical s" maneuver, which is a one minute timed 180 turn and 500 foot descent; and being able to complete a partial-panel ILS.

We started soon after takeoff by reinforcing that trim controls airspeed, power controls vertical speed, and the rudder controls the turn coordinator. He said that for at least the beginning part of this training he wanted me to use the yoke as little as possible. So we trimmed for level flight at 90 knots, then he had me turn using only the rudders, and change altitude using primarily (but not exclusively) the throttle.

After a few minutes practicing this, he had me try the vertical s. My first couple were a disaster, as I would get fixated on whichever instrument wasn't cooperating, and meanwhile the other would get completely out of whack. Eventually, though, I managed to complete it to somewhat acceptable standards.

The instructor then tuned the ILS of a nearby airport and put me on a vector towards it. He gave me a simple rule for intercept-- once the needle starts moving, you start moving. When it slows down, you slow down. When it stops, you stop. I managed to hold the localizer to within a dot or two, but the glideslope was off at least two or three. I couldn't get the descent rate stabilized-- first I would have too little power, then too much, but I couldn't get it just right. I was so focused on keeping the TC and VSI in the right spot that I didn't really look at the LOC/GS indicator a lot. The instructor opined that this was a good thing, and that it's much better to hold a stable course down the localizer than be chasing it back and forth. He had me look up at about 200 feet, way high and fast, and quickly reconfigure for landing.

We used the opportunity to take on some relatively cheap fuel, then launched for the quick hop back to Burke Lakefront. He again set me up on a vector for the ILS, and I used the same intercept technique. This time I was more assertive about using the yoke to help maintain my descent rate, and managed to keep both the glideslope and localizer within a dot or two. He let me look up (I never used foggles the whole flight, but was good about keeping my head down) at about 100 feet, and I quickly reconfigured for landing and set her down.

I'm really interested to hear what people think about the TC/VSI scan method. I had never heard it before, but it seemed to work out pretty well.

That's it for now, I'll try to type out lesson two a little later.


Good lesson. I didnt get to fly approaches until farther down my training.


Tip:
If you are renting wet, ie school is already selling you gas at their own rate, I would not fly a rental plane with an instructor to fill up thanks on a cheaper place. They save on gas while you burn up more hobbs and instructor time. That is a win-no win situation. they tried to pull that on me several times during some cross country flights on a particular school. no way!
 
I also started having trouble flying only by the VSI for altitude control-- by the time I noticed a trend, my altitude had slipped almost 100 feet and I had to recover quickly. Eventually I increased the frequency with which I referenced the altimeter, which helped maintain altitude.

Why use the laggy VSI as primary anyway? The altimeter needle will start moving before you notice the trend on the VSI changing. Think of it like you're already thinking of the ILS... "If the altimeter is moving..."

And he caught me not IDing the VOR or localizer, which is a bust on a checkride.

Are either instructor using the "T's" to get you into a rhythm of what to do? Every time you "Tune", ID the station. Every single time.

Nate
 
Why use the laggy VSI as primary anyway? The altimeter needle will start moving before you notice the trend on the VSI changing. Think of it like you're already thinking of the ILS... "If the altimeter is moving..."
Because that's the way the instructor is teaching it. I'm not so sold on it yet either, but I figured I'd give it a shot. Maybe at some point it will click.
Are either instructor using the "T's" to get you into a rhythm of what to do? Every time you "Tune", ID the station. Every single time.
The instructor mentioned the T's, but said he doesn't teach them because that's not the way he learned. His acronym is HAATT - Heading Altitude Airspeed Time Talk. He said he likes it better because it applies both to en route and approach contexts.
 
Part of me says, "Whatever works for him/you" and another part is yelling, "Why do some instructors think their pet-method of how to do something is better than relatively time-tested methods their peers utilize daily?"

The lack of standardization in instructing is both astoundingly bad when it's bad, and useful when a particular student truly needs something done differently to grasp a concept.

I hesitate to judge your instructor because I'm not one, but personally I don't like it when there's evidence an instructor I've hired seems to want to do everything differently from his/her peers.

In the end, the checkride tells all... but those aren't seemingly as standard as the books would have one believe either, reading stories about other people's checkrides.

There's a lot of "style" leeway it seems.

And sadly when the bureaucracy that regulates such things sets tighter standards, there's often a number of unintended consequences that aren't accounted for.

Whoever thought that Colgan pilot was up to the task of piloting a commuter turboprop into heavy known icing in New York, was dead wrong... as one example.

I generally tend to stay away from instructors who push non-standard training methods. But that's just me. I'd really like to pick up a book on the topic and see that I was taught a similar technique that has worked for countless others than be the outlier who was trained some odd-ball way that works, but can't be reinforced later when re-reading publications years hence.
 
I'm not gonna write a page about it, but i'll add that i do not use the VSI as primary because it lags. You should get used to scanning the altimeter because it is sensitive enough to be used as a primary pitch reference when partial panel
 
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