ifr for lsa
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Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe
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Light and Sporty Guy
Changes for what?
There are LSA aircraft out there that can be flown IFR. But not by those operating under sport pilot rules.
If you mean sport pilots being allowed to fly IFR, it ain't going to happen. Nobody's even suggesting that change.
frfly172
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No I'm talking,IFR rated pilots flying light sports,like the ctls. They sY the Astm rule makers are considering an update with rules allowing IFR for rated pilots ,with a medical to fly IFR.
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe
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So a change in the certification rules for S-LSAs and aircraft certificated as S-LSAs only - not LSAs in general.
poadeleted20
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Nothing new AFAIK. Seems like getting the LSA industry to agree on standards for IFR certification is like herding cats. Only two approved currently are the two which were grandfathered (SportStar MAX and one of the Zeniths).
I frankly don't understand the appeal of LSAs to anyone who can get a medical (or a special issuance medical), given the absurd cost of LSAs.
LSAs were envisioned as a much cheaper, VFR day-flying-limited-instrumentation alternative to certificated aircraft. Now that LSAs cost well over $100K (nearly $200K for a CTLSi), what's the point of not just buying a used well-equipped Mooney that flies twice as fast, nearly as efficiently, carries a much larger useful load, comes with autopilot etc., is fully certificated and can do VFR night and IFR/IMC without any trouble, at half the price?
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ateamer
Pattern Altitude
For LSA flying, why are glass panels needed? Why anything beyond airspeed, altitude, heading, fuel, oil, skid ball and maybe a handheld GPS? Eyes outside, keep it fun.
No skid ball necessary. Being pushed from side to side in the cockpit is half the fun. Don't even need a gyro, just give me a good old fashioned magnetic compass. A tachometer would be good though.
I agree, the CTLS is a nice plane as far as LSAs go. But the cost is exorbitant compared to what was envisioned when LSA regs were introduced.
bullwinkle
Pattern Altitude
But still inexpensive compared to similar certified airplanes.
CTLS: ~$150k
DA-20: ~$250k
Well, I guess that just goes to show that any new aircraft are exorbitant. Would be nice to see the Cessna 150/152, Piper Tomahawk, Beechcraft Skipper, etc. (fully certified planes) reintroduced at similar price points as when they were originally sold.
For comparison:
-1977 Cessna 150 new price: $13,950. Adjusted for inflation: $55,000
-1979 Piper Tomahawk new price: $19,730. Adjusted for inflation: $64,500
-1979 Beech Skipper: $27,205. Adjusted for inflation: $89,000 (ok, so Beech always commanded a premium).
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poadeleted20
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You need a bit more than that for operating one under IFR, and that is (or at least was) the topic of this discussion.
But why bother? To fly an LSA in IFR that is qualified for IFR (and as pointed out there are only a couple), you still need a private license with instrument rating and current medical. You cannot exercise an instrument rating with a sport pilot license, and you cannot exercise the privileges of private pilot (which is required to exercise instrument rating) without a current medical. So I can't think of a reason one would specifically need an IFR LSA as opposed to a non-LSA.
poadeleted20
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Maybe because you want a shiny new 2-seat airplane that operates very economically? Can't buy a new Cessna 152/Grumman AA-1x/Beech 76 Skipper these days, and even if you could, the SportStar Max is a lot more comfortable, flies faster, has a better payload, and has a better cockpit layout. I just finished doing an instrument rating in a SportStar Max with someone who was looking for all that and didn't want a ratty old shop-worn flight school veteran legacy trainer. Gotta say it's a very nice little airplane, and I'd much rather give IR training in a new SportStar than an old 150/152 (BTDT in both).
About the only current production Standard airworthiness 2-seat trainer choice is the Diamond DA20, but it comes with a "no IFR" restriction. Now, if you could get Cirrus to put into production the 2-seat trainer they considered a few years ago, that would be really nice, but they decided there wasn't a market for it at the price they'd have to charge and dropped the project.
I suppose if you're insisting on new, then that's true. But there's a wide swath of used planes available that fall somewhere in between fresh off the line and "ratty old shop-worn flight school veteran legacy trainers," are far more capable than LSAs, nearly just as efficient, fully certified, are faster, have higher useful loads, etc.
Shepherd
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I keep seeing "LSA, expensive, why bother, etc, etc"
Talk real numbers>
New Cessna 172: $388,190.00, IFR. Fully loaded, it will run you close to $400,000.00
New Tecnam Astore: $179,000.00 Fully loaded
BTW: the Tecnam has more room inside, uses half the gas or less.
I think the most expensive LSA on the market is the Carbon Cub, at about $250,000.00 fully loaded. And it can fly rings around a 172.
Talk real numbers>
New Cessna 172: $388,190.00, IFR. Fully loaded, it will run you close to $400,000.00
New Tecnam Astore: $179,000.00 Fully loaded
BTW: the Tecnam has more room inside, uses half the gas or less.
I think the most expensive LSA on the market is the Carbon Cub, at about $250,000.00 fully loaded. And it can fly rings around a 172.
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe
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My LSA cost me $20K. A new 172 costs 20 times as much. Obviously, non-LSA aircraft are insanely expensive compared to the bargain prices for an LSA.
And, quite frankly, a "well-equipped Mooney that flies twice as fast, nearly as efficiently, carries a much larger useful load, comes with autopilot etc., is fully certificated and can do VFR night and IFR/IMC without any trouble" and that costs an arm and a leg to push out of the hangar just doesn't interest me.
What LSA costs $20k? That's a great deal if true. Also how does a Mooney cost an arm and a leg to push out of the hangar?My LSA cost me $20K. A new 172 costs 20 times as much. Obviously, non-LSA aircraft are insanely expensive compared to the bargain prices for an LSA.
And, quite frankly, a "well-equipped Mooney that flies twice as fast, nearly as efficiently, carries a much larger useful load, comes with autopilot etc., is fully certificated and can do VFR night and IFR/IMC without any trouble" and that costs an arm and a leg to push out of the hangar just doesn't interest me.
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe
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A used one.
How much does it cost to maintain all the avionics, auto pilot, retractable gear, constant speed prop, etc. etc. etc. each year on average? Can you get by on a couple thousand including annual?
$3k or so but I live in the San Francisco Bay area and take mine to a certified mooney service center so it's a bit more expensive, plus $15/tach hr reserve for engine and another $10/hr reserve for the rest.
We're talking about prices for new LSAs specifically though. I have no issue with the used market, but the new lsa prices are so far out of reach that it makes little sense.
Jim Logajan
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Just FYI: The AMD Alarus CH2000 is one other 2-seat type certificated utility/normal airplane still in production that is intended for IFR training. (Not LSA.) But it is $190k when IFR equipped:
http://www.newplane.com/amd/amd/products/ch2000.html
So I think that makes two airplanes from Chris Heinz that are 2 seaters that are currently in production that can one can equip and train in for IFR; the other being the AMD 650 LSi which I think is what you were thinking of in your earlier post:
http://newplane.com/650/index.htm
poadeleted20
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Show me even one that is just as nice as a new SportStar, "far more capable", nearly just as efficient, fully certified, faster, has a higher useful load, has equally nice IFR avionics, and costs no more to operate.
My Mooney? Gtn 650, additional backup gps, hsi, 160kts tas cruise at 10gph, adsb with traffic and weather, leather interior, 1k lbs useful load, etc. I bought it for 59k (added the gtn and adsb later and took out the old rnav unit that used to be in there.)
frfly172
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The point is ,it's time to fly an economical two seater,with IFR capabilities. And when I loose medical still fly the airplane. When you compare price of a new ct compared to say a Cessna 172, there is no justification to buy a 172 for 100 grand more money.there are plenty of older IFR GA airplanes ,but none you can flight without a medical.
You're right but I wouldn't buy a new 172 either. SR20 about the same price and much better, if I had that kind of money to throw around. And the second point you're missing is that you can't fly IFR without a medical. So if your reason for flying an LSA is you have no medical, then IFR certified or not makes no difference whatsoever.
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Greg Bockelman
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Greg Bockelman
My sentiments exactly.
Greg Bockelman
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Just to clarify, if you lose your medical you cannot legally fly Light Sport. If you let it lapse, on the other hand, you can still fly Light Sport
JHW
En-Route
I flew my ercoupe IFR a few times. It even had redundant instrument power (dual venturis)
paflyer
Final Approach
Because some marketing genius coined the phrase "steam gauges" and no self respecting sky-ace wants to buy a new aircraft without the eye candy instrumentation.
fiveoboy01
Pattern Altitude
This is why my dad bought a brand new Harmony. Along with the reasons given, it's extremely economical on fuel(4 GPH and uses auto gas)... and it's all automatic with the 912is. No mixture, no wondering if you're getting optimum economy.
Nothing beats shiny and new over ratty and worn out. Sure it's expensive.... but it's only money. Frankly I think it will be a riot to fly because it's so light and(I hear) responsive and light on the controls.
Initially I groaned at the thought of an LSA.. a really nice 182 could have been had with plenty of money left over, then I saw what the 182 holds for fuel, and well I have to pay for any fuel I use:wink2:
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