IFR Communications

Terry

Terry

Line Up and Wait
Joined
Apr 3, 2005
Messages
738
Location
LaCrosse
Display Name
Display name:
Terry
Hi All,

I am an IR pilot of 2 years. The only actual IFR I have flown was two years ago.

I am current for IR and I fly very little IFR and No "hard IFR."

I want to file and fly IFR more often. I usually fly VFR because my radio skills are poor. I fly at a non towered airport. (Hays, Kansas)

I can fly to Salina, Class D, Hutchinson, Class D, or Wichita, Class C, relatively easy. I flew to Amarillo a year ago and my radio communication was terrible.

How do I regain my radio communications and procedures. In Hays, there is no clearance delivery. I usually call K.C. Center and say "3510A is ready to copy, IFR to ....."

I would like to fly to Colorado Springs in the next couple of months and want to sound like a professional and not some "hick" from the desert.

Are there any CD's that teach communication? Is my flight simulator close enough to help me out if I fly IFR on it?

Any help appreciated.

Thanks,
Terry :smile:
I fly C172 with a Honeywell GPS and the plane is instrument certified.
No storm scope or WX.
 
And practice a lot. If you're not going IFR, at least get VFR flight following -- that exercises most of the comm skills you need for IFR flying.
 
Buy Bob Gardner's "Say Again, Please" --- it's helpful for anyone who is radio-challenged.

Get an aircraft radio - maybe a Sportys SP100 handheld or something, and listen to aviation band radio, to get a feel for things.

JUST DO IT!!! Don't worry so much. It is far more important that you be WILLING to speak on the mike than it is that you get the nomenclature 100%. The instrument ticket is a wonderful thing, but if you are afraid to use it it will be worthless. Get a CFII, tell her/him your problem, and get up in the air. Practice makes perfect.

Radio comms ain't rocket science. Don't sweat it.
 
I would also encourage you to file on clear weather days. This gives you a chance to work thru the radio work when the workload is low. If in parallel you put some energy into making sure your instrument scan is strong you can be confident that you can soldier along in the airplane even if phraseology gets a little torn up. The avigation is your first priority anyway.

Good luck!
 
Terry said:
Hi All,

I am an IR pilot of 2 years. The only actual IFR I have flown was two years ago.

I am current for IR and I fly very little IFR and No "hard IFR."

I want to file and fly IFR more often. I usually fly VFR because my radio skills are poor. I fly at a non towered airport. (Hays, Kansas)

I can fly to Salina, Class D, Hutchinson, Class D, or Wichita, Class C, relatively easy. I flew to Amarillo a year ago and my radio communication was terrible.

How do I regain my radio communications and procedures. In Hays, there is no clearance delivery. I usually call K.C. Center and say "3510A is ready to copy, IFR to ....."

I would like to fly to Colorado Springs in the next couple of months and want to sound like a professional and not some "hick" from the desert.

Are there any CD's that teach communication? Is my flight simulator close enough to help me out if I fly IFR on it?

Any help appreciated.

Thanks,
Terry :smile:
I fly C172 with a Honeywell GPS and the plane is instrument certified.
No storm scope or WX.
Click to expand...

Terry - I feel your pain :)D:D). Go fly with Tony out of ICT or come to FTG and fly safety pilot for me (I'll let you talk to approach and tower all you want). It just takes getting used too. Listen to APA on liveATC net. It's really no big deal after awhile but it does take some "getting used to."

All that said, remembering the old who, where, what-ya-wanna-do, before keying the mic will get you a long ways. It never hurts to modify the above with establishing comms first in busy airspace but other than that it works pretty darn good. From my perspective, most of comms is knowing what the guy on the other end needs to know. No big deal at all once it is thought through. - Clark
 
As stated: practice, practice, practice. If you go VFR, get flight following. Listen to what the experienced guys are saying and emulate it. Eventually it becomes natural. Flying with people who are experienced will help you as well.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
As stated: practice, practice, practice. If you go VFR, get flight following. Listen to what the experienced guys are saying and emulate it. Eventually it becomes natural. Flying with people who are experienced will help you as well.
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I would add a couple things. One is to take what you hear on the frequency with a grain of skepticism until you check the pilot/controller glossary to see if it was "standard phraseology". I hear lots of things spoken by "professionals" on ATC frequencies that really shouldn't be emulated.

Another is to see if you can get a tour of a working TRACON and/or ATC Center. You can learn a lot there.
 
All of the advice given is great. I'd also second the suggestion to contact Tony Condon on this board who is a great CFI based in Kansas.
 
90% is based upon a standard recipe. You could in about 10 mins probably type out the start-to-finish phrases you will get in any typical ifr flight. Once you get that down, all you have to know is how to deal with the occasional variance!
Nail the white cake through repetition. Then learn how to add the occasional chocolate/fruits/frostings!
 
I appreciate the kind words about SAY AGAIN, PLEASE. ASA also sells COMMUNICATIONS TRAINER for $79.95; it is a DVD product based on the book but with pilot/controller transmissions to listen to.

Bob Gardner
 
TangoWhiskey said:
The "Hold the Mayonnaise" ATC communications book (you'll know what I mean if you read it!):

http://www.austincollins.com/radio.pdf
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hey that was a good read, Troy - thanks.
Here are two I think a bunch of us need work on:

a) traffic call outs. You will hear a lot of 'mayonnaise' following a callout these days! None of it tasty! Anyone want to share what they've heard?

b) that awkward, drawn-out thing that sometimes happens near the end of an ifr flight, to an uncontrolled field that is vmc. Aaagghh! It doesn't have to be that way. Know what I'm talking about?
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
hey that was a good read, Troy - thanks.
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You're welcome. I like the way he explains things. Example, regarding calling up an approach controller looking for practice approaches, with nothing more than just "Orlando Approach, Flight Express Trainer Three is with you..."

As one Jacksonville approach controller once put it, “hey, look – if you’re squawking VFR, please don’t just call me up with nothing but your call sign as if I’m supposed to know who you are! That’s like me calling you at home and saying, “hi! This is Phil!” And you would be like, ‘Phil who? Do I know you? Was I supposed to be expecting your call? What do you want?’

The only people who are allowed to check in with their call signs are people who are already operating on an instrument flight plan [or who already have a VFR squawk code given by a previous controller].”
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gismo said:
I would add a couple things. One is to take what you hear on the frequency with a grain of skepticism until you check the pilot/controller glossary to see if it was "standard phraseology". I hear lots of things spoken by "professionals" on ATC frequencies that really shouldn't be emulated.
Click to expand...

Good point Lance and very true, especially the things like "Thirteen for 6." When I then realize they mean 1,300 for 6,000. That said, it gives you a basis to start from.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
Good point Lance and very true, especially the things like "Thirteen for 6." When I then realize they mean 1,300 for 6,000. That said, it gives you a basis to start from.
Click to expand...

Another non-standard phrase I hear professional pilots using frequently is "point", as in::

"Regional Departure, American 656, one-point-six climbing one-two thousand..."
 
TangoWhiskey said:
You're welcome. I like the way he explains things. Example, regarding calling up an approach controller looking for practice approaches, with nothing more than just "Orlando Approach, Flight Express Trainer Three is with you..."

As one Jacksonville approach controller once put it, “hey, look – if you’re squawking VFR, please don’t just call me up with nothing but your call sign as if I’m supposed to know who you are! That’s like me calling you at home and saying, “hi! This is Phil!” And you would be like, ‘Phil who? Do I know you? Was I supposed to be expecting your call? What do you want?’

The only people who are allowed to check in with their call signs are people who are already operating on an instrument flight plan [or who already have a VFR squawk code given by a previous controller].”
Click to expand...
Click to expand...

That's odd, because many controllers say that's exactly how they want pilots to call them if they have not been handed off by another controller (minus the "with you," however). The reason they give is that they don't want you to tie up frequency time with additional information until they get back to you.
 
Palmpilot said:
Originally Posted by TangoWhiskey
You're welcome. I like the way he explains things. Example, regarding calling up an approach controller looking for practice approaches, with nothing more than just "Orlando Approach, Flight Express Trainer Three is with you..."

Quote:
As one Jacksonville approach controller once put it, “hey, look – if you’re squawking VFR, please don’t just call me up with nothing but your call sign as if I’m supposed to know who you are! That’s like me calling you at home and saying, “hi! This is Phil!” And you would be like, ‘Phil who? Do I know you? Was I supposed to be expecting your call? What do you want?’

The only people who are allowed to check in with their call signs are people who are already operating on an instrument flight plan [or who already have a VFR squawk code given by a previous controller].”
Click to expand...
That's odd, because many controllers say that's exactly how they want pilots to call them if they have not been handed off by another controller (minus the "with you," however). The reason they give is that they don't want you to tie up frequency time with additional information until they get back to you.
Click to expand...
I've heard that they like you to make the initial callup in busy airspace (e.g. Chicago) with "N1234, Cessna bugsmasher, VFR" so they don't waste time looking for your slip.
 
gprellwitz said:
I've heard that they like you to make the initial callup in busy airspace (e.g. Chicago) with "N1234, Cessna bugsmasher, VFR" so they don't waste time looking for your slip.
Click to expand...

The controllers around here have said that if you have not been handed off from another controller, all they want to hear on your initial callup is "Big City Approach, Cessna 1234X," and I've heard others say the same. Apparently different ATC facilities have different preferences.

The controllers around here are pretty busy, so I don't think they are going to spend time on you until they have the time to spend.
 
Listen to liveatc.com for ORD for an hour every day... You will get a crash course in phraseology in the real world... It also trains your ear to hear what they are saying in machinegun speech - especially during the push...
Along with that, download the approach plates from airnav.com for the runways in use when you are listening ... That way you will see where the intersection names they are calling out are located on the ILS... And see how little time and room they have to go from 250 knots, to 180 knots, to landing flaps... These guys and gals (pilots and controllers) are the best in the world... They operate, nonchalantly, at a skill level we dweebs can only fantasize about - especially the controllers... Last night they were using 3 runways in parallel, 27R, 27L, 28... And he was putting a bird onto each runway every two and a half minutes, or so... I was visualizing (trying to) the three streams of airplanes being handed to him by center and he was mentally keeping them organized, headed, and spaced - changing headings by ten degrees and airspeeds by 10 to 20 knots to keep them in trail at the proper spacing so no one had to go around because the runway wasn't clear yet... This went on for hours without interruption... Quite a performance...

Now having said that, last nite during the 4 to 7 pm push, I heard two airliners (names redacted to protect the guilty) be off altitude by 1000 feet when they called in to approach control... In both cases they had set the altimeter wrong - they set 30.34 and it was 29.34... In both cases the controller was calm and efficient, merely saying, "You are cleared for 10,000, I see your transponder showing 9000, what is your altitude?" (the other incident was at 5000 when it should have been 6000) It was sorted out and corrected and life went on...
The one was humorous, the pilot said, "We are showing 10,000 and the pressure at 30.34." The controller said, " Foxtrot is current at 29.34." The pilot, (voice rising) said, "That'll make a difference!"

denny-o
 
Palmpilot said:
That's odd, because many controllers say that's exactly how they want pilots to call them if they have not been handed off by another controller (minus the "with you," however). The reason they give is that they don't want you to tie up frequency time with additional information until they get back to you.
Click to expand...
The FAA agrees with Richard in the AIM Section 4-2-3 "Contact Procedures."

4-2-3. Contact Procedures ​

a. Initial Contact.
1. The terms initial contact or initial callup means the first radio call you make to a given facility or the first call to a different controller or FSS specialist within a facility. Use the following format:
(a) Name of the facility being called;
(b) Your full aircraft identification as filed in the flight plan or as discussed in paragraph 4-2-4, Aircraft Call Signs;
(c) When operating on an airport surface, state your position.
(d) The type of message to follow or your request if it is short; and
(e) The word "Over" if required.
EXAMPLE-
1. "New York Radio, Mooney Three One One Echo."
2. "Columbia Ground, Cessna Three One Six Zero Foxtrot, south ramp, I-F-R Memphis."
3. "Miami Center, Baron Five Six Three Hotel, request V-F-R traffic advisories."
Click to expand...
Note my added emphasis on item d, and examples 1 and 3, as they apply to this particular situation. Thus, the initial call should be "Orlando Approach, Flight Express Trainer Three [requesting practice approaches]" with the bracketed words optional. Also, note that the phrase "with you" is not in the AIM or Pilot/Controller Glossary, unless you're telling the controller you have Information Uniform and forgot to use the phonetic.

And, of course, if you're being handed off as opposed to cold-calling, you check in with your altitude and, if you're on a vector, your heading: "Potomac Approach, Tiger 22RL, level four thousand five hundred, vector three six zero."
 
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... see if you can get a tour of a working TRACON and/or ATC Center. You can learn a lot there.
Click to expand...
Yes. Don't just ask for a tour, however. Ask to "plug in" with a controller for a couple of hours during a time when he/she will not be too busy to answer questions. I have found them to be glad to do it and the experience to be hugely beneficial. If you can, do it both at a TRACON and at an ARTCC. Rugby and chess, respectively.

"Thirteen for 6." When I hear that, my mind hears: "13-4-6" and it takes a second to unjumble it!
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Yes. Same problem with using the word "to." Like "Thirteen Down To Six"

I'm trying to retrain to use the words "Climbing" or "Descending." For example, "Thirteen Descending Six Thousand" or maybe "Out of Thirteen Descending Six Thousand"
 
For example, "Thirteen Descending Six Thousand" or maybe "Out of Thirteen Descending Six Thousand"
Click to expand...

How about "one, three thousand descending six thousand"?
 
Ron Levy said:
The FAA agrees with Richard in the AIM Section 4-2-3 "Contact Procedures."

Note my added emphasis on item d, and examples 1 and 3, as they apply to this particular situation. Thus, the initial call should be "Orlando Approach, Flight Express Trainer Three [requesting practice approaches]" with the bracketed words optional. Also, note that the phrase "with you" is not in the AIM or Pilot/Controller Glossary, unless you're telling the controller you have Information Uniform and forgot to use the phonetic.

And, of course, if you're being handed off as opposed to cold-calling, you check in with your altitude and, if you're on a vector, your heading: "Potomac Approach, Tiger 22RL, level four thousand five hundred, vector three six zero."
Click to expand...

Good points. As the author of the document I linked suggested in his further discussion on this (not quoted in my snippet), a simple, "request" a the end of your initial contact with him tells him you're not an IFR person he's already handling, and that you're going to want something as a VFR new contact.

"Potomac approach, Cessna 7712R, request..."
 
Palmpilot said:
The controllers around here have said that if you have not been handed off from another controller, all they want to hear on your initial callup is "Big City Approach, Cessna 1234X," and I've heard others say the same. Apparently different ATC facilities have different preferences.

The controllers around here are pretty busy, so I don't think they are going to spend time on you until they have the time to spend.
Click to expand...

If you attend any "Communicating for Safety" conferences put on by the controller's union you will learn that many of the differences we note as we fly around the country can be traced back to individual facility managers. Some managers want things done in a certain way, whether it conforms to the ATCH or not...and it drives their employees crazy.

The CFS conferences are the only opportunity that controllers across the country have to compare notes.

Bob Gardner
 
airdale said:
Yes. Don't just ask for a tour, however. Ask to "plug in" with a controller for a couple of hours during a time when he/she will not be too busy to answer questions. I have found them to be glad to do it and the experience to be hugely beneficial. If you can, do it both at a TRACON and at an ARTCC. Rugby and chess, respectively.

Yes. Same problem with using the word "to." Like "Thirteen Down To Six"

I'm trying to retrain to use the words "Climbing" or "Descending." For example, "Thirteen Descending Six Thousand" or maybe "Out of Thirteen Descending Six Thousand"
Click to expand...
:nonod:

I agree with Dave Taylor...get rid of the teens and say numbers the way the AIM wants them said (4-2-8 and -9)

Bob Gardner
 
get rid of the teens
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Mea culpa. I was focused in on the "to" and "for" as the issue and not thinking about the teens.
 
Here is one I hear a lot out in the boonies. You are sleepily descending into your destination, a non-towered field which is enjoying great vmc.
ATC prompts, "Advise when you have the weather at KABC" (He is giving you a hint. He already knows what he weather is.) You rouse from your reverie and tune in the asos then call him back to let him know you have the weather. (Nooo! -don't leave it there!)
Guess what he must say next? "N123 say type of approach requested" to which you naturally think, Hey its clear, of course we will do the visual.
"N123 requesting the visual into KABC."
ATC: "N123 airport 12 oclock, 10 miles - cleared the visual into KABC report cancellation with EFG radio, no traffic observed between you and the airport". You suddenly wake up realize what is going on, and say "N123 cancel ifr" to which he, rolling eyes, says
"N123 cancellation received squawk vfr change to advisory frequency approved."
All could have been avoided by, as you approach the airport knowing it is clear and you are going to cancel, either cancel ifr well out, or at least tell him to expect you to cancel at xx miles, or passing through 18000.
 
If the airport is in the boonies I prefer not to cancel until I am on the ground, because if I have an accident after canceling IFR no one will come looking for me.
 
TangoWhiskey said:
Good points. As the author of the document I linked suggested in his further discussion on this (not quoted in my snippet), a simple, "request" a the end of your initial contact with him tells him you're not an IFR person he's already handling, and that you're going to want something as a VFR new contact.

"Potomac approach, Cessna 7712R, request..."
Click to expand...

I leave off the word "request" because it doesn't convey any information. The controller already knows whether he is already handling me or not, and the mere fact that I am calling him tells him that I want something.
 
If the airport is in the boonies I prefer not to cancel until I am on the ground, because if I have an accident after canceling IFR no one will come looking for me.
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Indeed.
The post above was about the other situation, where you are going to cancel, but make no steps toward it til the controller is forced to play 20 questions with you.
 
Palmpilot said:
I leave off the word "request" because it doesn't convey any information. The controller already knows whether he is already handling me or not, and the mere fact that I am calling him tells him that I want something.
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Sure it conveys something. Especially if the controller is busy he may not actually know for certain if he's handling you already or not, and even if he is, I've been known to say it just to convey that I have a favor to ask but it's not urgent.

Now, one thing that hasn't been brought up but is important is the issue of bargaining with ATC about what routing, clearance, etc. you get. Frequently, especially in the northeast, you will get clearances to get into, out of, and around NYC, PHL, and DC that are less than optimal. For example, normally when I fly down to the Carolinas I'll get a routing down the west side of DC that's something like SCAPE MRB direct. A few times, ATC has tried to give me a clearance that adds a lot of extra miles and time to the route, like ETX V29 SBY direct. When that happens, I'll take the route, confirm that it adds a lot to my time, and then bargain with them to get the western route. Usually they give it to me right off, but every now and then I've gotten a bad controller who I've had to argue with for a few minutes before they change it. Remember that their being lazy is costing you money (and a lot of it).
 
Ron Levy said:
And practice a lot. If you're not going IFR, at least get VFR flight following -- that exercises most of the comm skills you need for IFR flying.
Click to expand...

I second that. Right now I am working the IFR ground material so I can take the exam. In the interim, I fly VFR using ATC. My radio skills were pathetic, but now I chime right in along with the big boys flying in and out of the IAH Class Bravo.

Takes practice. I also recommend the ASA training materials. I bought "Say again, please" and put the audio files on my iPod and just listened to them incessantly in the car, waiting in line, etc. After a while you pick up the lingo, like any other language and then you get comfortable. The secret? Practice.
 
Now, one thing that hasn't been brought up but is important is the issue of bargaining with ATC about what routing
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That's easy, turn down the volume, dial in 7600, hit the D-> button, sit back and relax!
 
Ted DuPuis said:
Sure it conveys something. Especially if the controller is busy he may not actually know for certain if he's handling you already or not, and even if he is, I've been known to say it just to convey that I have a favor to ask but it's not urgent.
Click to expand...

If any controllers tell people to say it, then I will consider it. Until then I will go with the preferences of the controllers I have heard from.
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
That's easy, turn down the volume, dial in 7600, hit the D-> button, sit back and relax!
Click to expand...

:rofl:

The one time I did that was because I had a complete electrical failure.
 
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