IFR at Night

[ScottM]

How many of you routinely fly IFR at night in IMC?

I find myself a bit hesistant to do this do to a couple of concerns. I have flown some IFR at night but the ceilings were high, there was no chance of ice or thunderstorms. The conditions were so close to VFR that I could have made the flight VFR.

Part of my concern is that there are enough risks for night flying that I did not want to compound my workload and options available to me. But I am curious whether others do this and what extra things to you plan for or equip yourself with.

Scott

 

[AirBaker]

Well, you can't see outside the cockpit anyways!

I would just watch the minimums and the cielings. Also, keep an eye on what approach you're going to do. Circling to land at night in an unfamiliar area with low ceilings is just asking for trouble.

If I had passengers on board, I'd plan all flights in radar environments to towered airports with an ILS.

Also, you want to have some flights that are challenging, but not too far from your skill level.

Just my thoughts.

 

[Richard]

How many of you routinely fly IFR at night in IMC?

I find myself a bit hesistant to do this do to a couple of concerns. I have flown some IFR at night but the ceilings were high, there was no chance of ice or thunderstorms. The conditions were so close to VFR that I could have made the flight VFR.

Part of my concern is that there are enough risks for night flying that I did not want to compound my workload and options available to me. But I am curious whether others do this and what extra things to you plan for or equip yourself with.

Scott

I don't routinely fly night IMC. The only difference I can think of is to pay closer attention to terrain and obstacle clearance in the pre-flight planning and to review the various illusions associated with marginal wx or night flight.

Would you care to elaborate on your perceptions of those risks of night flight?

 

[ScottM]

Would you care to elaborate on your perceptions of those risks of night flight?

just to avoid repeating myself. This previous thread discussed some of those concerns.
http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3727

But basically the reduced visability when breaking out at night, lack of a visual option even if on top, etc. Intersting to note is that I did almost all my instrument training at night and I even did my checkride at night but I don't feel comfortable in actual except in daylight conditions.

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

Some have said there is increased risk - not sure if that is a statistical statement or intuitive ("night adds risk, imc adds risk...so night x imc must compound the risk").

Now I haven't done a lot but think it is somewhat easier compared to some day imc situations as you are less distracted by what's outside (nuttin' to look at; really nothing. No cloud shapes, no light grey vs med grey vs dark grey, no tantalizing piece of ground going by.) Near cities, typically as you get lower you are watching glows and then glimpses of ground light which can be distracting.
I think you can see lightning further away. I believe rwy lights, glidepath lights, and als's are better spotted at night as you are breaking out and in low vis.
Of course you have to stay more aware for ice with your flashlight/l-e lights (some have those neat windshield lights that glow red when you are building it) but I certainly haven't done a whole lot of imc+night+ice.
Id say the problem of a forced landing with night imc would seem to pose greater risks but I don't know for sure if the stats bear that out.

 

[Richard]

just to avoid repeating myself. This previous thread discussed some of those concerns.
http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3727

But basically the reduced visability when breaking out at night, lack of a visual option even if on top, etc. Intersting to note is that I did almost all my instrument training at night and I even did my checkride at night but I don't feel comfortable in actual except in daylight conditions.

I re-read the entire thread provided in the link. You mention being over confident, thereby seeting in accident chain in motion. Is that your concern?

WRT decreased vis while breaking out...you have two possible answers to one question: am I confident I can make a normal landing per 91.175? Y/N It doesn't matter if it's night or day.

WRT on top operations...situational awareness will never let you down...as long as one has confidence in their SA.

WRT the night being so black it will suck the eyeballs out of your head...you should be eyes inside.

Thinking back on some black hole approaches I've made, yes, things can get kinda' dicey. If confidence goes out the window, don't land. Go missed, request the hold, sort yourself out and either try again or go back to a more comfortable place.

Yes, the purpose of an app is to land. But if you feel something is amiss, stop the descent. Your intuition is trying to tell you something.

I've actually enjoyed some black hole apps because I knew what to expect because I had reviewed the app with an eye to the likelihood of the illusion. So there I was, calling out the illusions as they presented themselves, fully confident that I was exactly where I was supposed to be. Flying by the numbers and sticking the app is where it's at.

Go get some face time with IMC with a competent CFII. Actually, some of my best IFR training flights were where I turned the a/c over to the CFII and simply watched as they made the full app or two. Whatever it takes for correlation to manifest itself.

 

[gismo]

How many of you routinely fly IFR at night in IMC?

I find myself a bit hesistant to do this do to a couple of concerns. I have flown some IFR at night but the ceilings were high, there was no chance of ice or thunderstorms. The conditions were so close to VFR that I could have made the flight VFR.

Part of my concern is that there are enough risks for night flying that I did not want to compound my workload and options available to me. But I am curious whether others do this and what extra things to you plan for or equip yourself with.

I often end up flying at night and although I do find that this makes some aspects of the flight a bit more difficult, I don't see much difference in the risk as long as you are careful to stay within certain limits. The biggest issues for me are:

1> Not being able to see clouds when I want to avoid them for icing and/or turbulence.

2> Not being able to see ice forming on the airframe as easily.

3> Non precision approaches especially ones without any visual glideslope or worse yet circling approaches are a lot tougher at night.

4> It's more difficult to read charts, find a dropped pencil etc.

I'm flying a de-iced twin with plenty of wx avoidance gear so some of my issues are a bit different than they would be if I were flying, say, a Skyhawk or something like that.

In addition to those items, there are issues that often crop up at night but aren't particularly related to the darkness such as:

A> Fatigue.

B> Fog.

C> Reduced ATC services (towers closing, no EFAS etc).

 

[Alan]

I'll do IFR at night if it presents itself. Instruments and charts are some harder to read and I REALLY dislike circle to land approaches at night. HEck, I dilsike circle to land approaches in the daytime if I can't maneuver at pattern altitude.

 

[Richard]

I often end up flying at night and although I do find that this makes some aspects of the flight a bit more difficult, I don't see much difference in the risk as long as you are careful to stay within certain limits.

Would that mean your 'comfort zone' becomes smaller because of night?

1> Not being able to see clouds when I want to avoid them for icing and/or turbulence.

What difference here than flying in day IMC? I know you have more IFR time than I, but if you can't see the cloud because you're in the cloud how are you able to discern what to avoid, whether day or night? Detection gear don't care what time of day it is.

2> Not being able to see ice forming on the airframe as easily.

Yep, but retarded a/c performance is a clue.

3> Non precision approaches especially ones without any visual glideslope or worse yet circling approaches are a lot tougher at night.

That is where planning comes in. I have certain criteria which if not met would dismiss a C-T-L at certain aprts. That is, it's decided on the ground I will have to pick another aprt if C-T-L is likely to be the only available app at certain aprts.

4> It's more difficult to read charts, find a dropped pencil etc.

Part of my preparation for night flight, especially IFR, is packing 7-8 working pens/pencils w/in easy reach. I wear pens on lanyards around my neck, same goes for mini mag lights, one blue, one white. I wait til shut down to pick up dropped pens/pencils.

I'm flying a de-iced twin with plenty of wx avoidance gear so some of my issues are a bit different than they would be if I were flying, say, a Skyhawk or something like that.

Do you find it easier to avoid #1, #2?

In addition to those items, there are issues that often crop up at night but aren't particularly related to the darkness such as:

A> Fatigue.

B> Fog.

C> Reduced ATC services (towers closing, no EFAS etc).

Be ware, be very ware.

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

Particularly when things go south over hostile terrain in a realm that many consider too much for a single pilot even when day IFR, what can you say about SEL/SP Night IFR but to triple check everything including your previous training and currency, plus lots of pens and flashlights clipped on with other gear strapped down, with redundancy everywhere possible including generous amounts of your favorite beverages for when and if you roll out on the ground -because your mouth will rarely be so dry.

 

[Richard]

A sentence for all time

In a realm that many consider too much for a single pilot even when day IFR, what can you say about SP Night IFR but to triple check everything including your previous training and currency, plus lots of pens and flashlights clipped on with other gear strapped down, with redundancy everywhere possible including generous amounts of your favorite beverages for when and if you roll out on the ground -because your mouth will rarely be so dry.

Dave, that is one heckuva sentence! Concise and succinct, you said all that can be said. In fact, you have summed it up so completely I am utterly bereft of ideas of how anyone would have something to add.

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

Re: A sentence for all time

Dave, that is one heckuva sentence! Concise and succinct, you said all that can be said. In fact, you have summed it up so completely I am utterly bereft of ideas of how anyone would have something to add.

You are correct Sir, and are obviously very astute.

 

[DoubleD]

Reading all above, one thing not mentioned is to think long and hard about what you'd do with an electrical failure at night, assuming you don't have redundancy. Alternators or voltage regulators are more likely to fail than engines, and you can't be assured of catching the problem before your battery is low. For me this consideration rules out single-engine IFR at night without a VFR option below. I have done it, but not recently. One gets more conservative with age, I guess.

Why is this scenario scarier at night than in daylight? Maybe it's just me, but night complicates things.

 

[EdFred]

I did almost all of my IFR training at night.

Non-issue for me.

 

[AdamZ]

I just wouldn't feel comfortable doing it. I guess others may say I'm too cautious but thats ok with me.

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

Reading all above, one thing not mentioned is to think long and hard about what you'd do with an electrical failure at night, assuming you don't have redundancy. Alternators or voltage regulators are more likely to fail than engines, and you can't be assured of catching the problem before your battery is low. For me this consideration rules out single-engine IFR at night without a VFR option below. I have done it, but not recently. One gets more conservative with age, I guess.
Why is this scenario scarier at night than in daylight? Maybe it's just me, but night complicates things.

Good point David,
When in my plane (s.e.) I have the JPI which starts squawking within 5 seconds of switching off the alternator, so I feel like I should get at least 20 mins through efficient, rapid load-shedding - hopefully enough to find airport and land. Now if the battery is >3yrs old I am thinking other thoughts. I have a 2yo alternator and regulator, as they age I get more conservative too.

In other planes I've been in, even night vmc requires more evaluation of the situation, you can really get lost out here without electronic nav assistance at night. m.e. flying is a lot different wrt the electrical failure issue.

I carry in my own plane a battery pack behind the seat. If I lose it all including battery reserve, I reach around, plug my handheld gps and my anc headset* in and continue to vfr. (it is rare I would not have that option here)
*this is really important to me; and I know it will handle both.

 

[Richard]

I carry in my own plane a battery pack behind the seat. If I lose it all including battery reserve, I reach around, plug my handheld gps and my anc headset* in and continue to vfr. (it is rare I would not have that option here)
*this is really important to me; and I know it will handle both.

Have you ever practiced reaching around to plug in your handhelp and hedset? Do it in simulated single pilot IMC everything-has-gone-to-crap environment. Don't forget the beads of sweat.

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

Have you ever practiced reaching around to plug in your handhelp and hedset?

no, it was for real. Its easy if you have a stable airplane!

 

[bbchien]

Most of my students have more night hours than day...
Nightime IFR? Got about 500 hours of it.

 

[gismo]

Quote:
Originally Posted by lancefisher
I often end up flying at night and although I do find that this makes some aspects of the flight a bit more difficult, I don't see much difference in the risk as long as you are careful to stay within certain limits.

Would that mean your 'comfort zone' becomes smaller because of night?

Yes, I'm comfortable flying IFR at night under most conditions, but there are some where I'd be more comfortable making the flight in the daytime.

Quote:
1> Not being able to see clouds when I want to avoid them for icing and/or turbulence.

What difference here than flying in day IMC? I know you have more IFR time than I, but if you can't see the cloud because you're in the cloud how are you able to discern what to avoid, whether day or night? Detection gear don't care what time of day it is.

In the daytime I can more easily find clear air between layers or on top of clouds and I can readily see when I will be running into a cloud. At night this becomes much more difficult. During the winter months, one of the best ways to avoid ice is to avoid flying in clouds as much as possible. This can be done under IFR or VFR, but IFR offers a lot more options and IMO is generally safer, especially at night.

Quote:
2> Not being able to see ice forming on the airframe as easily.

Yep, but retarded a/c performance is a clue.

Sure, but I'd rather start my escape at the earliest sign of ice rather than wait until performance has degraded significantly. That said, I do keep a wary eye on the ASI when flying in the dark if icing is a possibility. I also do periodic checks of the wings with a flashlight. One of these days I'm going to add ice lights.

Quote:
3> Non precision approaches especially ones without any visual glideslope or worse yet circling approaches are a lot tougher at night.

That is where planning comes in. I have certain criteria which if not met would dismiss a C-T-L at certain aprts. That is, it's decided on the ground I will have to pick another aprt if C-T-L is likely to be the only available app at certain aprts.

Yes, planning, forethought, and higher personal min's at night are all good.I generally will not attempt a CTL at night unless the conditions are at or above VMC (1000 ft ceiling and 3 mi vis). I've made exceptions at airports I was very familiar with having made several day and night landings there before.
Quote:
4> It's more difficult to read charts, find a dropped pencil etc.

Part of my preparation for night flight, especially IFR, is packing 7-8 working pens/pencils w/in easy reach. I wear pens on lanyards around my neck, same goes for mini mag lights, one blue, one white. I wait til shut down to pick up dropped pens/pencils.

Sure, this can be mitigated, but the extra prep and reliance on flashlights are some of the burdens of night flight. I have several writing utensils and flashlights strategically located in the cockpit including one pen with a built in light and I have yet to run out day or night. I don't have a problem looking for dropped items but they are usually easier to find in the daytime.

Quote:
I'm flying a de-iced twin with plenty of wx avoidance gear so some of my issues are a bit different than they would be if I were flying, say, a Skyhawk or something like that.

Do you find it easier to avoid #1, #2?

I think the difference in equipment is that the consequences of ice encounters are less severe and there are more options to escape. WRT to TRW, the more detection gear you have the easier it is to avoid, but sometimes this simply means that with less equipment there are more times when the only safe means of avoidance is to not fly. Other times the lack of detection capabilities means longer deviations. Having 800+ nm IFR range creates some options as well that don't exist when a 150 nm deviation is needed.

Quote:
In addition to those items, there are issues that often crop up at night but aren't particularly related to the darkness such as:

A> Fatigue.

B> Fog.

C> Reduced ATC services (towers closing, no EFAS etc).

Be ware, be very ware.

Always trying to.

 

[AdamZ]

Most of my students have more night hours than day...
Nightime IFR? Got about 500 hours of it.

Bruce is that because you feel night is a better IFR training enviornment or is it just the result of packed professional scheduals? Or some other reason?

Also I assume your comfort level is in great part due to your extensive experience and the fact that you fly a twin. Do you feel differently about singlepilot single engine night IFR?

 

[Everskyward]

2> Not being able to see ice forming on the airframe as easily.

Yep, but retarded a/c performance is a clue.

I don't know what kind of airplane you are flying, but in all the ones that I have flown you'll see ice on the wings and other places well before you notice any performance degradation. If you're waiting for reduced performance that's waiting a little too long. Some airplanes come with ice lights which shine on the wings or you can use a flashlight.

 

[Richard]

I don't know what kind of airplane you are flying, but in all the ones that I have flown you'll see ice on the wings and other places well before you notice any performance degradation. If you're waiting for reduced performance that's waiting a little too long. Some airplanes come with ice lights which shine on the wings or you can use a flashlight.

I know, it was a dumb thing to say. Since last night I wanted to delete it.

 

[bbchien]

Bruce is that because you feel night is a better IFR training enviornment or is it just the result of packed professional scheduals? Or some other reason?

Also I assume your comfort level is in great part due to your extensive experience and the fact that you fly a twin. Do you feel differently about singlepilot single engine night IFR?

I think in most of my Pacific Ops, were in IMC for hours and hours at a time. The electronic Recon ship likes IMC. We don't like seeing the sun.

So I never found it a problem. But to have me for a teacher one generally has to wait until late in the day, too....

 

[poadeleted20]

There is no doubt that the risks are higher, and the necessary level of skill and requirement for proficiency are higher, but I don't think they are high enough to merit not flying when I have a reason to go somewhere, so I have always flown night IMC in single-engine planes.

 

[Everskyward]

I know, it was a dumb thing to say. Since last night I wanted to delete it.

I understand. There are a lot of things I've said and done that I've wanted to delete too.

 

[TangoWhiskey]

The only difference I can think of is to pay closer attention to terrain and obstacle clearance in the pre-flight planning and to review the various illusions associated with marginal wx or night flight.

I would add to that the following tips related to LIGHTING:

1) Check NOTAMS carefully for anything related to lighting at all airports you intend to use. If the beacon or runway lights are OTS, you want to know about it before you get there.

2) Since you don't have to worry about this during all those day IFR flights, and thus it's not probably part of your "routine", make sure you have "active Pilot-Controlled-Lighting" somewhere PROMINENT on your checklist, and give it the requisite number of clicks at the FAF... again, you don't want to fly that approach to mins and realize THEN that the reason you're not seeing the airport is that the lights aren't on!

3) Have a big flashlight available. If you lose power/lights in the cockpit, turn it on and stuff it light-side UP in the seatback pocket behind the co-pilot. Try it sometime on a dark ramp, or in your hangar. The light will bounce off the ceiling and illuminate the whole cockpit and panel very nicely without blinding you, and it keeps your hands free for other things.

 

[RobertGerace]

I try to be home before bed-time; so that means almost never during the Summer and -- living in the Southeast, very often during the Winter.

 

[gibbons]

About 4% of my single engine flying is night time. Over 10% of my multi engine flying is night time. I'm sure that the percentages are even more divergent for IFR conditions.

I used to fly night IFR just like day VFR, when I had a well equipped twin. In the single I'm hard pressed to fly night time IFR. I always ask myself, "What happens if one engine quits?" If the answer is, "We all die." then I think twice about ever flying in those conditions again.

 

[RobertGerace]

"What happens if one engine quits?" If the answer is, "We all die." then I think twice about ever flying in those conditions again.

Exactly. Although, I've done it in a single; I won't do it again. The same goes for day IMC over low ceilings.

I agonized long and hard about whether to buy a twin or a single. In the end, it was low IMC (day or night) and night flight (especially IMC) over water and/or mountains that led me to the twin.

I'm noticing a pattern that once I step up to a new level of aviation, the risks that I routinely accepted before the move become unacceptable after the move.

Since buying the twin, new things have come to light...what happens if there are low ceilings and I can't get out of ice (day or night)...not impossible...but not a great place to be. My airplane has a tendancy for BOTH engines to quit if I take off from a hot, humid place and climb quickly to below zero C temps...which was fixed in some of the 400 series -- for me, I have to use fuel additives to avoid it.

I suspect that if / when the day comes when I buy a jet, I'll find the risk level of flying a piston twin at night in IMC to be unacceptable.

 

[gibbons]

I suspect that if / when the day comes when I buy a jet, I'll find the risk level of flying a piston twin at night in IMC to be unacceptable.

Most of us will never know. I hope you find out some day.

 

[Earthroamer]

I have to do a lot of IMC at night for a living. Professionally, I dont care if it's IMC at night or day. It really doesnt matter. However, I do not fly IMC at night in singles anymore. It's just not worth the risk for me. I am now a father to be... I just made a commitment to some "angry squid" being developed to stick around as much as possible. So, I might as well lower the risk a little bit.

Brent Bradford

 

[Doug R]

Brent,
Congrats on the father to be. I have two wonderful teenagers ...the whining and complaining and spending every bleeding nickle I have and being a slob and staying awake until 2 a.m., sleeping till 11:00am every morning is starting to wear me out, but I figure I'll get my life straightened out once I retire from flyng...as for my teenagers they are great.

Agree with you on the IFR night/day. As a function of the job its no big thing, but single engine night/IFR given the opportunity I would not feel comfortable doing anymore. Though I did do alot of it in the past. Funny how your mindset changes.

Doug