I Should Not Be Alive!

[Alexb2000]

"saving us"! from what
I can't even imagine a non-pilot passenger doing that to me. What the.. was she trying to do!? Did you let her know how dangerous it was for her to be on the controls? WoW!

Well this is not just a "passenger" those that are married know what I mean. She is a 6 million mile Boeing girl and had never been in a small plane. She got scared by the motion of the 172 in the wind and thought it was going to crash. For whatever reason she didn't say anything and just did what she did, neither of us know why. Since that time she has never touched the controls even in a real emergency.

We still get a laugh out of it every time we tell the story.

 

[redtail]

Well this is not just a "passenger" those that are married know what I mean. She is a 6 million mile Boeing girl and had never been in a small plane. She got scared by the motion of the 172 in the wind and thought it was going to crash. For whatever reason she didn't say anything and just did what she did, neither of us know why. Since that time she has never touched the controls even in a real emergency.

We still get a laugh out of it every time we tell the story.

I'm married and have no idea what you mean. My wife's first flight in anything smaller that a regional jet, was with me two years ago, in a 172. Although it wasn't a crazy windy day, it was a little bumpy.

I just asked her if she ever felt like she would be so inclined to grab the controls or even touch them if something freaked her out. She said "heck no"

I just have a hard time understanding how a non-pilot could think they could save a pilot from crashing....unless he/she (pilot) became incapacitated or sick to the point of being unable to control it him/herself.... scared or not!

I wonder how many accidents were caused by a front seat passenger freaking out like that?

Well anyhow, glad it worked out and hasn't happened again

 

[ebykowsky]

"Unable to control altitude. Unable to control airspeed. Unable to control heading. Unable to control wife. Other than that, everything A OK!"

 

[N521MA]

That was quite a hair raising first solo XC
But when did East Hampton get a control tower
.

As of last summer they now have a seasonable tower. I believe operation is between Memorial and Labor Day.

 

[N521MA]

I'm taking my wife up for her first flight in a rented 172. All is well on pre-flight, runup, etc.

So as I rotate I feel a catch in the controls. The wind is gusting a little and as I make small corrections I feel resistance. I am thinking... Oh S, I have some kind of control problem here. Not wanting to say anything and scare my wife I continue the climb out, but now I can feel a lot of pressure on the ailerons and we're in an uncommanded yaw. In my mind I'm trying to figure out what controls are working, what my chances are with inop controls, all while remembering the Alaska Air incident.

So, I am about to radio the tower for an immediate return, when I look over and see my wife holding the yoke and working the rudder.

I say, "What are you doing?"

She says, "I'm saving us!"

I say, "but you don't know how to fly!"

She says, "oh yeah"

That day I learned to always check the front seat passenger when anything goes wrong.

Wow!!!! Good one!!!!

 

[redtail]

As of last summer they now have a seasonable tower. I believe operation is between Memorial and Labor Day.

Oh, ok that explains it. Thanks.

 

[DavidWhite]

Bad idea in some cases -- most non-pilots who want to fly tend to overcontrol. If they feel resistance in the yoke, they might fight the A/P and cause damage. The flying club I belonged to gave up on fixing the A/P in the last 182 they owned because of pilots doing just that -- with predictable results.

Nah, I just tell them the airplane wants to fly itself and that the controls may move and not to fight it.

 

[redtail]

"Unable to control altitude. Unable to control airspeed. Unable to control heading. Unable to control wife. Other than that, everything A OK!"

That's just wrong, for all of us married guys... I represent that

All jokes aside, I wasn't trying to be harsh. I'm just trying to understand the human thought process and why we react in certain ways, especially under stress/fear.

Dr. Zaius is my teacher

 

[Alexb2000]

All jokes aside, I wasn't trying to be harsh. I'm just trying to understand the human thought process and why we react in certain ways, especially under stress/fear.

I don't believe any of will know how we or any other person will react until the S hits the fan for real. Later when I had some real engine trouble at low altitude over a DENSE urban area she did great.... that is she didn't "save us" again.

She did have a few other flying challenges, some other time I'll tell about the time she threatened to jump from the aircraft on an approach in hard IMC.

 

[ebykowsky]

She did have a few other flying challenges, some other time I'll tell about the time she threatened to jump from the aircraft on an approach in hard IMC.

Somebody picked the wrong time for a proposal!

 

[redtail]

I don't believe any of will know how we or any other person will react until the S hits the fan for real.

Yeah that's true.

She did have a few other flying challenges, some other time I'll tell about the time she threatened to jump from the aircraft on an approach in hard IMC.

. for real?

You're joking right?

 

[redtail]

Somebody picked the wrong time for a proposal!

 

[DogDaddy]

Last weekend I flew into IMC at night. Big mistake, especially since I'm not instrument rated. I think I rolled twice, but not sure. Started entering a spiral and broke out of the clouds at about 400 ft, nose low and in a steep bank. Miraculously recovered without stalling or hitting anything, Flew at 800 ft to a Class D field and landed. Was so dazed and traumatized, I just stopped on the runway and couldn't think what to do next. Tower coached me to get off the runway. Haven't been able to sleep since. Keep seeing it in my mind.
Hours later and just a few miles away, someone else got caught in it and was not as lucky as I was.
I haven't slept well since. Keeps replaying in my mind.

 

[poadeleted21]

Last weekend I flew into IMC at night. Big mistake, especially since I'm not instrument rated. I think I rolled twice, but not sure. Started entering a spiral and broke out of the clouds at about 400 ft, nose low and in a steep bank. Miraculously recovered without stalling or hitting anything, Flew at 800 ft to a Class D field and landed. Was so dazed and traumatized, I just stopped on the runway and couldn't think what to do next. Tower coached me to get off the runway. Haven't been able to sleep since. Keep seeing it in my mind.
Hours later and just a few miles away, someone else got caught in it and was not as lucky as I was.
I haven't slept well since. Keeps replaying in my mind.

Careful if you do get that IR ticket, My coworker.

http://savannahnow.com/news/2012-11-20/ntsb-starts-investigation-savannah-area-plane-crash

 

[Alexb2000]

You're joking right?

Nope.

Somebody picked the wrong time for a proposal!

 

[Alexb2000]

Last weekend I flew into IMC at night. Big mistake, especially since I'm not instrument rated. I think I rolled twice, but not sure. Started entering a spiral and broke out of the clouds at about 400 ft, nose low and in a steep bank. Miraculously recovered without stalling or hitting anything, Flew at 800 ft to a Class D field and landed. Was so dazed and traumatized, I just stopped on the runway and couldn't think what to do next. Tower coached me to get off the runway. Haven't been able to sleep since. Keep seeing it in my mind.
Hours later and just a few miles away, someone else got caught in it and was not as lucky as I was.
I haven't slept well since. Keeps replaying in my mind.

Wow. You are really lucky, but you know that. We all replay those events, in my case for a few days after a mechanical. You have to turn this angst into action, use this experience to drive yourself to get your IR. Please don't F around with this, get it done.

I'm really glad you're here to share this. You may save someone else who reads this.

 

[redtail]

Last weekend I flew into IMC at night. Big mistake, especially since I'm not instrument rated. I think I rolled twice, but not sure. Started entering a spiral and broke out of the clouds at about 400 ft, nose low and in a steep bank. Miraculously recovered without stalling or hitting anything, Flew at 800 ft to a Class D field and landed. Was so dazed and traumatized, I just stopped on the runway and couldn't think what to do next. Tower coached me to get off the runway. Haven't been able to sleep since. Keep seeing it in my mind.
Hours later and just a few miles away, someone else got caught in it and was not as lucky as I was.
I haven't slept well since. Keeps replaying in my mind.

Wow! I'm glad you made it. What lead to the spiral? Did you try to make a 180 and lose control of the turn or what? I don't fly much at night, so I'm curious. Was this a case of unforecasted clouds or what?

 

[wickedsprint]

Last weekend I flew into IMC at night. Big mistake, especially since I'm not instrument rated. I think I rolled twice, but not sure. Started entering a spiral and broke out of the clouds at about 400 ft, nose low and in a steep bank. Miraculously recovered without stalling or hitting anything, Flew at 800 ft to a Class D field and landed. Was so dazed and traumatized, I just stopped on the runway and couldn't think what to do next. Tower coached me to get off the runway. Haven't been able to sleep since. Keep seeing it in my mind.
Hours later and just a few miles away, someone else got caught in it and was not as lucky as I was.
I haven't slept well since. Keeps replaying in my mind.

Focus on the positive. You didn't panic or give up and your brought it back. I say good job.

 

[david0tey]

Does telling my mom I just soloed without her knowing count as I shouldn't be alive?

If our moms are anything alike, then it absolutely does.

 

[DogDaddy]

Since "it was only a 14 minute flight" of 24nm, I did not get a "thorough" wx briefing. I had flown to the Class D field at 5pm, had dinner, and planned to return at night and do my night currency. Wx was cloudy but ok to fly there. When ready for departure from there the vis was 20 with SKT250 and temp/dewpt I think 8 degrees apart. But I failed to compare this with the 5pm wx - I would have seen a trend of decreasing vis and temp/dewpt converging.The wx past my destination was worse. After departing and getting into this, when I returned to the same Class D field the vis was reported 5m BKN900 and temp/dewpt 1 degree apart.
A few things I did right. The instant I got into it I immediately called the Class D tower - that freq was still on even tho I had just left that airspace. I figured, controller would remember me/plane and my direction of flight. That worked. Also I reduced power so the plane would descend. I tried for a nose low, wings level attitude. Controller said there were no obstacles where I was; I thought I was near the water tower. Autopilot was placarded Inop.
What I discovered was, this was not a matter of "trusting" the instruments. I did trust them. I discovered that a VFR pilot does not have the muscle memory to interpret several instruments simultaneously and react instinctively. I started chasing instruments and things started happening faster and faster and faster. I felt like a water skier being pulled along by a boat turning one way then the other. The controller turned on all the lights hoping I would find them and that helped. But the plane was already starting a graveyard spiral. Had not built up too much speed yet but I did hear that rushing wind noise. When I broke out after seeing the altimeter pass thru 500 ft I saw the ground lights, looked up and saw the horizon at an angle. Thank God I had taken an Unusual Attitude and Spin Recovery course with an aerobatic instructor! Without even having to think about it I recovered without stalling and without hitting the groud. I just happened to be in a rural area, probably a field. I am sure.I almost touched the ground - when I recovered I think I felt that ground effect feeling where the descent slows.
Always get a thorough weather briefing. Never try to beat the weather.

 

[GCA319]

Since "it was only a 14 minute flight" of 24nm, I did not get a "thorough" wx briefing. I had flown to the Class D field at 5pm, had dinner, and planned to return at night and do my night currency. Wx was cloudy but ok to fly there. When ready for departure from there the vis was 20 with SKT250 and temp/dewpt I think 8 degrees apart. But I failed to compare this with the 5pm wx - I would have seen a trend of decreasing vis and temp/dewpt converging.The wx past my destination was worse. After departing and getting into this, when I returned to the same Class D field the vis was reported 5m BKN900 and temp/dewpt 1 degree apart.
A few things I did right. The instant I got into it I immediately called the Class D tower - that freq was still on even tho I had just left that airspace. I figured, controller would remember me/plane and my direction of flight. That worked. Also I reduced power so the plane would descend. I tried for a nose low, wings level attitude. Controller said there were no obstacles where I was; I thought I was near the water tower. Autopilot was placarded Inop.
What I discovered was, this was not a matter of "trusting" the instruments. I did trust them. I discovered that a VFR pilot does not have the muscle memory to interpret several instruments simultaneously and react instinctively. I started chasing instruments and things started happening faster and faster and faster. I felt like a water skier being pulled along by a boat turning one way then the other. The controller turned on all the lights hoping I would find them and that helped. But the plane was already starting a graveyard spiral. Had not built up too much speed yet but I did hear that rushing wind noise. When I broke out after seeing the altimeter pass thru 500 ft I saw the ground lights, looked up and saw the horizon at an angle. Thank God I had taken an Unusual Attitude and Spin Recovery course with an aerobatic instructor! Without even having to think about it I recovered without stalling and without hitting the groud. I just happened to be in a rural area, probably a field. I am sure.I almost touched the ground - when I recovered I think I felt that ground effect feeling where the descent slows.
Always get a thorough weather briefing. Never try to beat the weather.

Well, it sounds like you learned your lesson and won't do it again, so that is what is important. Now go get that IR.

 

[JoeSelch]

Thank you for having the guts to post here.
Now wracking my brains trying to figure out how it *might* happen to me.

 

[Jaybird180]

I am sure.I almost touched the ground - when I recovered I think I felt that ground effect feeling where the descent slows.

In one-upmanship you win. Thread closed







Either that or BS

 

[DogDaddy]

Joe,and everyone else, we tend to push the envelope as we get experience(which is part of "growing"), but we tend to become more risk-tolerant and gradually lower our personal minimums over time. We become more confident and what used to be red flags (low visibilty, or inoperative equip in the aircraft, etc) start to be viewed as no big deal. We reason, "after all, I've made this flight before, in [insert conditions here, like 5m visibility or low ceiling or no landing light or over gross weight] with no problem at all..." Till eventually we find we've bitten off more than we can chew.
I remember, 2 years ago my personal minimum was 7m visibility...till one day I got into 5m or even less. Since I was able to make it back safely, I thereafter had no objection to flying in 5m visibility, because I no longer viewed 5m as the risk I previously had viewed it as.
As we notice our personal minimums lowering over time, we can ask ourselves, is this because we are becoming more skillful? Or just less careful?
Everyone please take this seriously; I was just a few seconds from flying into the ground. Many will consider me an a**hole for flying in that weather...well, I probably am. But learn from my mistake.

 

[Alexb2000]

Joe,and everyone else, we tend to push the envelope as we get experience(which is part of "growing"), but we tend to become more risk-tolerant and gradually lower our personal minimums over time. We become more confident and what used to be red flags (low visibilty, or inoperative equip in the aircraft, etc) start to be viewed as no big deal. We reason, "after all, I've made this flight before, in [insert conditions here, like 5m visibility or low ceiling or no landing light or over gross weight] with no problem at all..." Till eventually we find we've bitten off more than we can chew.
I remember, 2 years ago my personal minimum was 7m visibility...till one day I got into 5m or even less. Since I was able to make it back safely, I thereafter had no objection to flying in 5m visibility, because I no longer viewed 5m as the risk I previously had viewed it as.
As we notice our personal minimums lowering over time, we can ask ourselves, is this because we are becoming more skillful? Or just less careful?
Everyone please take this seriously; I was just a few seconds from flying into the ground. Many will consider me an a**hole for flying in that weather...well, I probably am. But learn from my mistake.

Here's my twist on this. You WILL fly in conditions that you shouldn't VFR it's just human nature. Pilots are especially prone to pushing the envelope and VFR limitations are tough when we're trying to go somewhere in an airplane. We can talk all day about minimums, vis requirements, etc. but there will be a time when most of us will break those rules. IF we accept that human nature means we will fly in weather we shouldn't at one time or another, then the ONLY answer is to get the IR.

 

[Dan Thomas]

We can talk all day about minimums, vis requirements, etc. but there will be a time when most of us will break those rules. IF we accept that human nature means we will fly in weather we shouldn't at one time or another, then the ONLY answer is to get the IR.

And once you have the IR, you then go and fly in ice in an airplane not certified for it and die anyway.

Attitude is everything. Don't know who said that, but it's true. If I treat the rules as if they're for lesser mortals and not me, since I'm smarter than the average bear, I will sooner or later kill myself and maybe someone else, too. The rules are there because someone learned stuff the hard way, and if we are ignorant enough not to know how ignorant we are, we will learn them all over again the hard way.

Seen it far too often in the flight training world. Have a few dead friends because of it.

http://aviationknowledge.wikidot.com/sop:hazardous-attitudes

Dan

 

[Dan Thomas]

Wow! I'm glad you made it. What lead to the spiral? Did you try to make a 180 and lose control of the turn or what? I don't fly much at night, so I'm curious. Was this a case of unforecasted clouds or what?

Go get an hour or two of instrument training under the hood. You will find that your sense of balance is so strong that your brain will believe it rather than the instruments. The inner ear gets confused by motion of any sort once you lose sight of external references, and it starts lying to you. It takes many hours to train the brain to believe the instruments and sort out the truth from the lies.

A flight simulator can't simulate vertigo. Need to be in a real airplane.

Dan

 

[redtail]

Go get an hour or two of instrument training under the hood. You will find that your sense of balance is so strong that your brain will believe it rather than the instruments. The inner ear gets confused by motion of any sort once you lose sight of external references, and it starts lying to you. It takes many hours to train the brain to believe the instruments and sort out the truth from the lies.

A flight simulator can't simulate vertigo. Need to be in a real airplane.

Dan

Understood. I asked that question before his next post, which explained in detail what took place.

 

[Alexb2000]

And once you have the IR, you then go and fly in ice in an airplane not certified for it and die anyway.

Attitude is everything. Don't know who said that, but it's true. If I treat the rules as if they're for lesser mortals and not me, since I'm smarter than the average bear, I will sooner or later kill myself and maybe someone else, too. The rules are there because someone learned stuff the hard way, and if we are ignorant enough not to know how ignorant we are, we will learn them all over again the hard way.

Seen it far too often in the flight training world. Have a few dead friends because of it.

http://aviationknowledge.wikidot.com/sop:hazardous-attitudes

Dan

Dan-

Of course it is attitude in some cases, but is it always? Every year VFR into IMC kills a lot of pilots and their passengers, many times more than icing. I don't believe that it is always an attitude problem. For example someone rents and airplane and flies out to a get together under perfect VFR. An overcast layer moves in during the afternoon, but still easily VFR legal underneath. Pilot gets a little later start back and ends up flying after sunset. Inadvertently gets into IMC that s/he couldn't see...

That's the kind of thing I meant about human nature not the straight-up no rules apply risk takers.

 

[MSPAviator]

I nearly got creamed by an idiot in a Piper Tripacer with no radio flying straight in to KHCD as I was turning base to final.

Ahh yeah, I found the picture...

 

[Dan Thomas]

Dan-

Of course it is attitude in some cases, but is it always? Every year VFR into IMC kills a lot of pilots and their passengers, many times more than icing. I don't believe that it is always an attitude problem. For example someone rents and airplane and flies out to a get together under perfect VFR. An overcast layer moves in during the afternoon, but still easily VFR legal underneath. Pilot gets a little later start back and ends up flying after sunset. Inadvertently gets into IMC that s/he couldn't see...

That's the kind of thing I meant about human nature not the straight-up no rules apply risk takers.

Then pilot always has the opportunity to stay put if he's too late to make the flight safely, and he usually has the opportunity to turn around when it starts to look bad. But, of course, we are usually reluctant to accept any inconvenience, so we press on when we really do know better and we get ourselves killed or the airplane busted up. Is that more convenient?

At my home airport, an uncontrolled field, there was a crunch a month or so ago. An expensive turbine single was attempting to land in blowing snow. The pilot lost sight of the runway on final and hit the surface short of the runway and destroyed the airplane, but the occupants were mostly OK. There are two major IFR airports 20 minutes away for an airplane like that. What happened? Just have to get there and nowhere else?

There are very, very few unforeseen weather conditions that exonerate a pilot. Anyone who has studied weather theory and pays attention to the reported and forecast conditions is most unlikely to get caught unawares. There were mornings that I used to get to work, beautiful spring mornings, and I would say that the place would be fogged in in an hour. It got so they started believing me because I was right more often than wrong. There was no magic to it; the ground was moist from a thunderstorm the previous evening, the dewpoint was only a couple of degrees above ambient, and the sun was coming up. That sun hits that moist ground and boils off the moisture, and before you know it, the dewpoint is right at the temperature and fog appears suddenly from nowhere. The same applies to calm mornings when the winds aloft are forecast to be quite strong; that wind will soon touch down and make landing difficult.

Situational awareness. All of us get enough training for the anticipated flying; we just need to learn it properly and apply it. The real dangers come when we start flying in conditions for which we were not trained: continued VFR into IMC is a classic killer.

Dan

 

[DavidWhite]

I fly those dangerous little airplanes

 

[Alexb2000]

Then pilot always has the opportunity to stay put if he's too late to make the flight safely, and he usually has the opportunity to turn around when it starts to look bad. But, of course, we are usually reluctant to accept any inconvenience, so we press on when we really do know better and we get ourselves killed or the airplane busted up. Is that more convenient?

At my home airport, an uncontrolled field, there was a crunch a month or so ago. An expensive turbine single was attempting to land in blowing snow. The pilot lost sight of the runway on final and hit the surface short of the runway and destroyed the airplane, but the occupants were mostly OK. There are two major IFR airports 20 minutes away for an airplane like that. What happened? Just have to get there and nowhere else?

There are very, very few unforeseen weather conditions that exonerate a pilot. Anyone who has studied weather theory and pays attention to the reported and forecast conditions is most unlikely to get caught unawares. There were mornings that I used to get to work, beautiful spring mornings, and I would say that the place would be fogged in in an hour. It got so they started believing me because I was right more often than wrong. There was no magic to it; the ground was moist from a thunderstorm the previous evening, the dewpoint was only a couple of degrees above ambient, and the sun was coming up. That sun hits that moist ground and boils off the moisture, and before you know it, the dewpoint is right at the temperature and fog appears suddenly from nowhere. The same applies to calm mornings when the winds aloft are forecast to be quite strong; that wind will soon touch down and make landing difficult.

Situational awareness. All of us get enough training for the anticipated flying; we just need to learn it properly and apply it. The real dangers come when we start flying in conditions for which we were not trained: continued VFR into IMC is a classic killer.

Dan

Would you agree that history suggests humans are not that disciplined in any endeavor?

Take my example, should the pilot say, "Well the ceilings are 5,000', winds calm, destination VFR, everything is 100% legal by a mile, BUT there are clouds up there and we are cutting it close to sunset. I don't think I will chance flying night VFR because there is at least one cloud in the sky, although my ticket says I can without restriction. Instead I will leave the rental plane at this small airport and eat the minimum rental charges for tomorrow. Get someone to give me a ride into town and try to find a hotel room where the sheets don't stick together. Call the boss and say I won't make it in to work on Monday. The wife is crazy P'd and a will never go on airplane trip with me again, but that's OK it's about solid ADM".

Doesn't it make more sense to just get the IR? Would you really want to have a beer with that guy?

 

[Dan Thomas]

Doesn't it make more sense to just get the IR? Would you really want to have a beer with that guy?

There's a big difference between your scenario and one that forecasts lowering ceilings and worsening weather, or a situation where the temp and dewpoint are just too close. You do check temp and dewpoint, right? And you do know that clear skies result in more rapid cooling that can create fog and low cloud, right?

Get the IR, then watch for icing conditions. Those are easy to predict, too. The forecasters do it all the time.

We have more, and more accurate, weather information available now that at any other time in history. And we still see people flying into weather they're not trained for, not briefed on, and refusing to turn back. That's not something we can blame on the weather. In Canada, at least, every PPL student gets 5 hours under the hood, and on the checkride has to perform a rate-one turn 180 degrees to prove he is capable of controlling the airplane well enough to get himself out of the cloud. But maybe some pilots have their heads in the cockpit, watching the GPS, and don't see the cloud coming and are several miles into it before they find out something's wrong. I have seen it coming, even on dark nights. It's not invisible.

Intelligence and wisdom are two far different things.

Give me the sticky sheets and a ticked-off wife over an accident any day. I'm old enough and have been scared enough times to be willing to accept some inconvenience.

Dan