I search a school for ME training with SENECA

B

BEECH58P

Filing Flight Plan
Joined
Feb 15, 2008
Messages
7
Display Name
Display name:
B58P
Hi,

I'm a freshly FAA-PPL SE from Europe, I search a good flight school in the USA who is approved within the SEVIS program to issue I-20 forms for the issuance of M-l student visas.

I want to train on a Seneca because I want to buy one, my questions are:

* can I get directly a VFR ME rating with my fresh FAA-PPLE SE licence ?
* can I fly as PIC 40 hours cross country flying when I have that VFR ME rating so I do the hour building to start the IFR training after these 40 hours ?
(I would get a safety pilot/instructor with me, and fly these 40 hours all over the USA in a few weeks)

If you know any good schools who trains in SENECA, thanks a lot for your imput.
 
KennyFlys said:
Any reason why specifically the Seneca? Economical twin trainer?

Here's a possibility that popped up on a Google search:

http://www.burlingtonaviation.com
Click to expand...
If you mean why does he want to train in it; it's because he wants to buy one. If you mean why he wants to buy one; he hasn't offered that information.

But in answer to his questions, going from a VFR SEL to VFR MEL isn't a problem. There should be a section in the MEL PTS that covers this.

And doing 40 hours of flight after he gets the AMEL shouldn't be an issue, though insurance may require an instructor aboard for at least some of that time (presuming it's his airplane he's planning to do the flying in). If he's renting, they'll undoubtedly have some requirements. If he can rent from where he did the training, that training time may be sufficient to cover their rental requirements; check before starting, though! He said he'd be willing to have an instructor with, and that certainly isn't a bad idea. Use an MEII and you can do some (much) of the instrument work during those 40 hours.
 
Last edited:
Iowa Lakes Community College in Estherville, IA. Thats where I went and they do all of their multi training in a Seneca I, pretty economical. Private Message me and I can get you the email for the chief instructor there. You'll have to ask him about the european conversion stuff.
 
dmccormack said:
Only 40 hours to be insured Single Pilot ME???

Are you kidding?

Around here people that already OWN Twins are minimum 1000 hours...
Click to expand...
He doesn't mention his total time.

As far as being insured in a multi engine, it'd be pretty simple with two hundred hours and a fair amount of dual. I'm sure you could get it with less but I don't know for sure.

You most certainly don't need a thousand hours. I do agree that there isn't going to be much for FBOs out there that have an insurance policy that would permit a sub-100 hour pilot to rent their twin.
 
jesse said:
He doesn't mention his total time.

As far as being insured in a multi engine, it'd be pretty simple with two hundred hours and a fair amount of dual. I'm sure you could get it with less but I don't know for sure.

You most certainly don't need a thousand hours. I do agree that there isn't going to be much for FBOs out there that have an insurance policy that would permit a sub-100 hour pilot to rent their twin.
Click to expand...

I'm sure it depends on the twin, but a pilot in a nearby hangar has a 310 -- and has to build 1000 hours, TT before they'll insure him.

Don't know how many ME hours that is, though an MEI I know said he can't be insured until he has 500 in the right seat (he has over 1500 TT).
 
Remember those D__ned TSA requirements, too.

Burlington Aviation's Seneca is a Lycoming Seneca. Fuggedabout it. VERY different bird.
 
BEECH58P said:
* can I get directly a VFR ME rating with my fresh FAA-PPLE SE licence ?
Click to expand...
Yes.
* can I fly as PIC 40 hours cross country flying when I have that VFR ME rating so I do the hour building to start the IFR training after these 40 hours ?(I would get a safety pilot/instructor with me, and fly these 40 hours all over the USA in a few weeks)
Click to expand...
Yes, you can. In fact, you can do your instrument training during those 40 hours if you get an instrument instructor to fly them with you. Then you'll be ready for the instrument checkride as soon as the XC time is complete. Further, the instrument rating you get in the Seneca will be valid in SE airplanes, too. The only issue might be if you want to take that plane for an extended period (like two weeks) because most quality multiengine training schools have a backlog of students waiting to use the plane, although for 40 hours of instrument dual in the Seneca, you can probably negotiate a good deal.

And make sure to ask the schools you contact if they are qualified to train non-US-citizens under the TSA rules. There's a bunch of paperwork for you to do before you can get your visa.
 
Last edited:
gprellwitz said:
If you mean why does he want to train in it; it's because he wants to buy one. If you mean why he wants to buy one; he hasn't offered that information.
Click to expand...
The impression I got was he wanted an economical, multi-engine, time builder which is usually considered "training" while setting out to meet so many hours required before moving up in a career. But, I wasn't going to assume that so I asked.
 
Ron Levy said:
Yes.
Yes, you can. In fact, you can do your instrument training during those 40 hours if you get an instrument instructor to fly them with you. Then you'll be ready for the instrument checkride as soon as the XC time is complete. Further, the instrument rating you get in the Seneca will be valid in SE airplanes, too. The only issue might be if you want to take that plane for an extended period (like two weeks) because most quality multiengine training schools have a backlog of students waiting to use the plane, although for 40 hours of instrument dual in the Seneca, you can probably negotiate a good deal.

And make sure to ask the schools you contact if they are qualified to train non-US-citizens under the TSA rules. There's a bunch of paperwork for you to do before you can get your visa.
Click to expand...

Thanks guys!

I'm buying a Seneca because it's below 1999kg MTOW so I avoid IFR Eurocontrol charges with that!!

According to the FAR I need 40 hours Cross Country (with minimum legs of 50nm) before I can start the IR training. It would surprise me that I could start it before ?

So I was thinking, I get a ME rating now, and then fly 40 hours in the states with a Seneca, with an instructor or safety pilot in the right seat no problem for me, as long as I can log those flights as PIC.

Oh yes, I would prefer a school with minimum Seneca III.

Thanks.
 
BEECH58P said:
So I was thinking, I get a ME rating now, and then fly 40 hours in the states with a Seneca, with an instructor or safety pilot in the right seat no problem for me, as long as I can log those flights as PIC.
Click to expand...
40 hours before you can get the rating, not before you can start training. Ron can correct me if I'm wrong.:)
 
BEECH58P said:
According to the FAR I need 40 hours Cross Country (with minimum legs of 50nm) before I can start the IR training. It would surprise me that I could start it before ?
Click to expand...

Not before you start the training - Before you get the rating. You need 50 hours XC PIC, 40 hours instrument, 15 of the 40 must be with a CFII.

To make the cross-country time PIC time, you must be rated in category and class (Airplane Multi-Engine Land). So, train and take the checkride for the VFR-only AMEL rating first.

Then, go flying around in the Seneca - Cross country flights under the hood will count for both the XC and instrument time.

Oh yes, I would prefer a school with minimum Seneca III.
Click to expand...

Wisconsin Aviation has two Seneca II's, which are pretty darn similar to Seneca III's. I don't know of any schools with a newer Seneca.

http://www.wisconsinaviation.com/

One is based at KMSN, the other at KRYV which is around 25nm away. So, if one wasn't available due to maintenance or something, you could fairly easily fly the other one. The KMSN-based one, N6878C, has full de-ice and I have flown it a few times.

Let me know if you want any more info, and have fun! :yes:
 
gprellwitz said:
40 hours before you can get the rating, not before you can start training. Ron can correct me if I'm wrong.:)
Click to expand...
Kent got it right. With his brand new PP-ASEL, he can tack on the AMEL, then build XC time in the twin to cover both the 50-hour XC PIC requirement (he'll have at least 5 hours already from his PPL training) and build time for the insurance company. Also, the XC time only requires one landing during the flight more than 50nm from the original point of departure, not a leg of at least 50nm, but given his plan to tour the country, that shouldn't be an issue. And the idea of combining his IR training with his XC time building is solid.

BTW, while saving money is usually a concern, based the OP's writings, it doesn't sound like cost is a big factor.
 
There is a 141 school here at El Monte in SoCal that flys a Seneca I, and trains plenty of foreign students. I used it for my commercial ME. It's not great but an adequate trainer.

If you would consider Los Angeles I can get their information for you.

Joe
 
BEECH58P said:
I'm a freshly FAA-PPL SE from Europe, I search a good flight school in the USA who is approved within the SEVIS program to issue I-20 forms for the issuance of M-l student visas. I want to train on a Seneca because I want to buy one, my questions are: If you know any good schools who trains in SENECA, thanks a lot for your imput.
Click to expand...

I recently bought a Seneca III and looked for a Seneca to train in that wasn't located too far from me. I couldn't find one so I chose to train in a fairly nice 2004 Seminole at Angel Air in Chandler, AZ. That aircraft is available for rent after you obtain your rating. The transition to my Seneca was quite straightforward.
 
dmccormack said:
I'm sure it depends on the twin, but a pilot in a nearby hangar has a 310 -- and has to build 1000 hours, TT before they'll insure him. Don't know how many ME hours that is, though an MEI I know said he can't be insured until he has 500 in the right seat (he has over 1500 TT).
Click to expand...

When I was considering going to a twin, the 310, Seneca and Aztec were specifically recommended by my insurance broker. I ended up with a Seneca and actually found a great one to partner on at my local airport with a guy I had known for a while.

He got insured in the Seneca with 262 total single engine hours and a fresh Multi-Comm-Inst ticket (I think he said that took him about 15 hours). He had less than 300 hours total time. I just signed his logbook today (gave him an IPC) and noticed he now has 147 total multi time and still the same 262 hours in single engine airplanes.

When I bought into the Seneca partnership, I had about 725 hours in single engine airplanes (and CFII) and a fresh Multi-Comm-Inst ticket that took about 10 hours to get. After I had my 15 hours in category and class, I added my MEI. I now have a little over 800 hours total time and 75 multi and insurance is not a problem - never has been.

Another friend of mine had zero complex time and only a private-inst ticket when he bought his 310 a couple of years ago. He had probably 500 hours total time and getting insurance wasn't a problem for him either.

It doesn't take 1000 TT or 500 in the right seat as an MEI to get insured in these airplanes.
 
I actually like the Seminole also, the problem lies that my business collegue is a diabetic and has his feet cut off so I don't see him jumping on the wings to get in and out the plane. The Seneca is perfect for that with the big low side door to load him in.

So I guess training in a Seminole if the transition is not that difficult could also be a possibility. Aldo I'm more a 'train in what you will fly later' guy...

I have a quote from an insurance company but I told them straight away that I will log 15 hours ME time in type to get my rating, plus 40 hours hour building with instructor plus the 40 hour IR minimum, so at least 100hours in type. They feel good with it, insurance is not a problem that way. I have no idea what it will be if I log these training hours in a Seminole instead of a Seneca who I need insurance for.

While I will log the 40 hours ofcorse they can train me IR while doing it. Even if it should not count officially as IR training hours, I still would enjoy the expierence.

What flyingcheesehead writes seems to oppose what flight schools tell me, they only allow me to start the IR course when I have 40hours PIC cross country!!!!
 
BEECH58P said:
what flight schools tell me, they only allow me to start the IR course when I have 40hours PIC cross country!!!!
Click to expand...
Each flight school is a private business.

They each have their own set of rules regarding renting and training.

They are not FAR's. You cannot go by what flight schools tell you, they are business minded. You must search for yourself, as you are doing here, but ultimately, you must consult the regulations, which you will have to know anyway, to get the rating, so get an FAR book and look it up. Get an instructor to help you if you need to, but don't go by what a flight school front office person tells you. They are selling a business.
 
TRUE, i have a FAIR/AIM 08 right here, let me dig into it tonight
 
All this talk about ME training in a Seneca got me to wondering, who else here go their MEL in an Apache? They were once the cheapest and most plentifuly ME trainer. I got mine in Justin, TX flying an Apache out of a 1800's dirt strip.

JimR
 
BEECH58P said:
What flyingcheesehead writes seems to oppose what flight schools tell me, they only allow me to start the IR course when I have 40hours PIC cross country!!!!
Click to expand...

Some may be that way. I can tell you that Wisconsin Aviation, aside from having the Seneca available, WILL let you start your IR without having the XC PIC time done. That's how I started.
 
There is no FAA requirement that the PIC XC time be done before instrument training, although I think it's a good idea that people get some experience in their airplane before jumping into the IR.

When I get students that don't have the PIC time it means that instead of doing approaches 20-30 miles away mostly missed, we go 50-60 miles away and always do at least one landing. It really doesn't extend the training very much.

Joe
 
BEECH58P said:
I guess training in a Seminole if the transition is not that difficult could also be a possibility.
Click to expand...

It really is an easy transition from the Seminole to the Seneca. All of the controls, fuel selectors, etc. are in the same place. The Seneca is heavier and you need to carry more power throughout the pattern when landing and the heater is in the back versus the front, but those are the major differences. Yes, the engines are four cylinder, 180 HP normally aspirated in the Seminole and six cylinder 220 HP turbo charged in the Seneca III - but you'll learn to manage the power easily.

I was comfortable after one hour in the Seneca.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top