I have a ridiculous flying nuance!

M

Mike Boehler

Pre-takeoff checklist
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Sharon Springs, NY K31
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Mike Boehler
This sounds silly and ridiculous and on the edge of embarrassing.

I am totally uncomfortable in an airplane because it has no armrest! There, I said it. I am 5'10" 180 lbs. I drive 50K miles a year for work. Some of them heavy trucks. I have gone so far as to purchase $1200 aftermarket seats because I can't drive without armrests on both sides of me.

I've been back in the cockpit after 8 years off. I have 3.5 hours in since my return and while doing a 3 notch, full flap practice landing, I find myself leaning on the flap handle while holding the throttle. (Cherokee 140) My instructor didn't pick up on my bad habit (he found everything else I did wrong).

Damn, what a silly, stupid nuance to have and for it to be bad enough to even recognize it is even worse.

Anyone else have this problem? I am one weird individual, I am convinced.
 
put both arms in slings, use your feet?
:D
glad to hear you vent, feels good doesn't it!
 
It's almost impossible to put an armrest in the cherokee due to the flap handle (unlike the C172). Leaning on the flap handle is a safety issue. If it has electric flaps, that's another matter. With only a single door, armrests in a cherokee are a safety hazard.

Come to think of it, leaning on the flap handle because you need arm rests means you're probably leaning forward, which may be a sign of anxiety or physical discomfort. How comfortable are you sitting in the seat? Are you too close? If you pull the yoke all the way back, is it difficult? (elbows practically behindyour ears) If so, you may be sitting to close.

An option is to change aircraft to a C172. There are aftermarket armrests that slip under your lower anatomy. They don't work on a cherokee with manual flaps.

This is not a "nuance", it's a habit and not a subtle one.
 
I like an arm rest too. Here's my solution:

6835.jpg


Center consoles are available from Saircorp for lots of planes.
 
murphey said:
It's almost impossible to put an armrest in the cherokee due to the flap handle (unlike the C172). Leaning on the flap handle is a safety issue.
Come to think of it, leaning on the flap handle because you need arm rests means you're probably leaning forward, which may be a sign of anxiety or physical discomfort. How comfortable are you sitting in the seat? Are you too close? If you pull the yoke all the way back, is it difficult? (elbows practically behindyour ears) If so, you may be sitting to close.

.
Click to expand...

I totally agree with the safety factor. I'll work on not doing it. As far as too far forward or uncomfortable, I have to say, "leaning" is the most comfortable I've been since getting in the low wing. Just have to deal with being uncomfortable. There are worse things in life!

Still trying to get used to trim over my head. That's frustrating enough! Still can't get used to up/down/screw in/screw out/........I will though.

JohnAJohnson said:
I like an arm rest too. Here's my solution:

6835.jpg


Center consoles are available from Saircorp for lots of planes.
Click to expand...

That is sweet! That's what I'm talking about.
 
Hey Sam, what was your relationship to the general? I met him at an Air Force dining-in in the mid 70's. He was big as life itself and I have the evening as one of my fondest memories.
 
Buy a Matrix. Armrests are standard!:D
 
murphey said:
It's almost impossible to put an armrest in the cherokee due to the flap handle (unlike the C172). Leaning on the flap handle is a safety issue. If it has electric flaps, that's another matter. With only a single door, armrests in a cherokee are a safety hazard.

Come to think of it, leaning on the flap handle because you need arm rests means you're probably leaning forward, which may be a sign of anxiety or physical discomfort. How comfortable are you sitting in the seat? Are you too close? If you pull the yoke all the way back, is it difficult? (elbows practically behindyour ears) If so, you may be sitting to close.

An option is to change aircraft to a C172. There are aftermarket armrests that slip under your lower anatomy. They don't work on a cherokee with manual flaps.

This is not a "nuance", it's a habit and not a subtle one.
Click to expand...

Could you explain your safety hazard theory? The Saratogas have armrests on the front seats (quite comfortable - like flying in a lazy boy). It's the same situation leaving those front seats out the copilot door as it would be in a Cherokee. Never mind climbing over the two club seats and console to get to the back.

I don't remember if those armrests are spring loaded either to keep them out of the way but I've only about 6 hours in one of them. :dunno:

Controller won't let me do a linked image but the address is below. The armrests kind of swing around the front seats when you lower them.

http://www.controller.com/listingsd...-II-TC/2006-PIPER-SARATOGA-II-TC/1187493.htm?
 
jxdrl said:
Could you explain your safety hazard theory? The Saratogas have armrests on the front seats (quite comfortable - like flying in a lazy boy). It's the same situation leaving those front seats out the copilot door as it would be in a Cherokee. Never mind climbing over the two club seats and console to get to the back.

I don't remember if those armrests are spring loaded either to keep them out of the way but I've only about 6 hours in one of them. http://www.controller.com/listingsd...-II-TC/2006-PIPER-SARATOGA-II-TC/1187493.htm?
Click to expand...

The Saratoga is considerably larger than a cherokee both in cabin width and length - it's not a fair comparison.

Saratoga cabin width 48 in
Cherokee cabin width 40 in

Have you spent a goodly amount of time in a cherokee? It's almost impossible for the left seat to get out of the airplane with the flap handle in any position other than completely down. I speak from experience the times I've forgotten....Add to this the limited space from seat to panel, even with the seats all the way back, it's awkward getting out of the airplane. I've got more than 10 yrs in the cherokee and still feel like a contortionist trying to get out.

As far as I know, there are no center arm rests for the cherokee PA28 with the floor manual flap handle. Piper didn't make any, nor could I find any STCs for one. There are loads for the PS32/34 but not the PA28.

If armrests are needed, the Cessna 172 is the better choice because there are 2 doors and the center console does not have the flap handle.
 
murphey said:
The Saratoga is considerably larger than a cherokee both in cabin width and length - it's not a fair comparison.

Saratoga cabin width 48 in
Cherokee cabin width 40 in

Have you spent a goodly amount of time in a cherokee? It's almost impossible for the left seat to get out of the airplane with the flap handle in any position other than completely down. I speak from experience the times I've forgotten....Add to this the limited space from seat to panel, even with the seats all the way back, it's awkward getting out of the airplane. I've got more than 10 yrs in the cherokee and still feel like a contortionist trying to get out.

As far as I know, there are no center arm rests for the cherokee PA28 with the floor manual flap handle. Piper didn't make any, nor could I find any STCs for one. There are loads for the PS32/34 but not the PA28.

If armrests are needed, the Cessna 172 is the better choice because there are 2 doors and the center console does not have the flap handle.
Click to expand...

I don't think the width matters when you're trying to traverse a cabin but I do agree that it's not too easy to get out of. I may have pushed the seat back before getting out - the same as in a 172.

I didn't take into account the flap handle as that was usually down when I tried to get out and I still felt like a contortionist and I'm less than "FAA" sized (6'0" and 165 or so). But the handle was part of the OP.

I always do my Piper in-cockpit pre-flight from the right seat before walking around to save the movement.

Having to shuffle across a seat in any plane is never going to be that fun or graceful but I don't think it would really be a big deal to move an armrest - the same as the flap handle. Since they don't seem to exist off the shelf, it really doesn't matter.

I've only about 35 hours in the Cherokee line but I'd say that's enough to understand its size. It's still kind of like being born when I step onto the wing of the Comanche and stand up. :wink2:

edit: didn't fly the Arrow or Warrior as much as I thought I did.
 
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Isn't there some sort of chingadera that you can attach to the flap handle that puts it more at hand level when it's all the way down? I feel like I saw them being advertised so you didn't have to lean over to grab it. Maybe those come up high enough you could rest your hand on it in the down position?
 
JohnAJohnson said:
Hey Sam, what was your relationship to the general? I met him at an Air Force dining-in in the mid 70's. He was big as life itself and I have the evening as one of my fondest memories.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the story. It's a bit distant. Growing up in the 70's, I only knew him as that guy on the Mutual of Omaha commercials during Wild Kingdom on Sunday nights. Later, I grew to appreciate his contribution during WWII. It wasn't until I became I pilot that I was introduced to his biggest contributions to flying.
 
murphey said:
The Saratoga is considerably larger than a cherokee both in cabin width and length - it's not a fair comparison.

Saratoga cabin width 48 in
Cherokee cabin width 40 in
Click to expand...

You know you're a pilot when...

You say 8" is a "considerably larger" place to wedge you butt into to go flying.
 
bigred177 said:
Isn't there some sort of chingadera that you can attach to the flap handle that puts it more at hand level when it's all the way down? I feel like I saw them being advertised so you didn't have to lean over to grab it. Maybe those come up high enough you could rest your hand on it in the down position?
Click to expand...

Here is a link to aformentioned chingadera:

http://www.ezflaphandle.com/
 
jxdrl said:
Could you explain your safety hazard theory? The Saratogas have armrests on the front seats (quite comfortable - like flying in a lazy boy). It's the same situation leaving those front seats out the copilot door as it would be in a Cherokee. Never mind climbing over the two club seats and console to get to the back.

I don't remember if those armrests are spring loaded either to keep them out of the way but I've only about 6 hours in one of them. :dunno:

Controller won't let me do a linked image but the address is below. The armrests kind of swing around the front seats when you lower them.

http://www.controller.com/listingsd...-II-TC/2006-PIPER-SARATOGA-II-TC/1187493.htm?
Click to expand...
Are you sure about armrests between the front seats?

The photos you linked show the adjustable armrest that is between the back two seats.

I haven't flown a new model Saratoga, but the earlier ones most definitely DO NOT have armrests between the front seats. There is an armrest on the pilot's left side, but not between the seats - If you did have an armrest between the front seats, it would block your access to the trim wheel and emergency gear extension.

Edit - okay, looked at the photo again and saw the thin swing down armrest on the co-pilot seat. That is definitely a new addition (something you won't see on eariler PA32s). I thought you were talking about that pain-in-the-arse collapsable armrest between the back seats.
 
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stagecoachco said:
Here is a link to aformentioned chingadera:

http://www.ezflaphandle.com/
Click to expand...

"FAA STC-PMA
STC SA02246LA
Only $499 Installs in about 30 minutes!"

$10 for materials, $25 for labor to weld materials, $364 for STC. Has anyone here bought/used it? Is it worth it? In 14 years of flying a cherokee, I've never had problems with the flap handle. The grip, sure, but not the handle, and I'm only 5'6". I have shoulder harnesses but only snug them up when about to crash. Otherwise I can't reach the fuel switch, either.
 
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murphey said:
"FAA STC-PMA
STC SA02246LA
Only $499 Installs in about 30 minutes!"

$10 for materials, $25 for labor to weld materials, $364 for STC. Has anyone here bought/used it? Is it worth it? In 14 years of flying a cherokee, I've never had problems with the flap handle. The grip, sure, but not the handle, and I'm only 5'6". I have shoulder harnesses but only snug them up when about to crash. Otherwise I can't reach the fuel switch, either.
Click to expand...

My limited time in the 140, I noticed that the flap handle tends to want to fly out of my hand. I got slapped (figuratively) for letting it fly to the floor after landing. In actuality, it slipped out of my hand. I didn't say anything, just took my tongue lashing. Didn't want to sound like I was making excuses.

bigred177 said:
Good find. Doesn't look like it would do anything as an armrest though.
Click to expand...

I think I should abandon the idea of flap handle as an armrest.

To be clear, once again, I wasn't really looking for a way to lean on the flap extension handle for comfort. It seems wrong in the most simplistic common sense way, but man, I found myself leaning right and resting for the first time in the Cherokee and that's why. I'll learn another way of adjusting myself to be comfortable. Hopefully.
 
murphey said:
In 14 years of flying a cherokee, I've never had problems with the flap handle. The grip, sure, but not the handle, and I'm only 5'6". I have shoulder harnesses but only snug them up when about to crash.
Click to expand...
My impression was that those flap handle extensions (while approved for Cherokees) were designed more for the early Cessnas - the johnson bar in the early Cessnas works slightly differnt from the Pipers. Both have a button on the end, but it doesn't work the same -

In the Piper, all you have to do to lower the flaps is pull up on the bar. The button releases the bar when you want to raise them.

In the early Cessnas, you have to actually depress the button both to lower or raise the flaps. To top it off, in the early Cessnas, the johnson bar is mounted a little further forward so unless you have really long arms, you have to lean quite a bit forward and down to reach that button before you can pull the bar up.

I too agree with the pointlessness of the extension in a Cherokee. When I need to add flaps in a PA28 or PA32, I just move my hand a couple inches forward of the trim wheel and can easily pull the bar up with 2 fingers without leaning forward or bending down.

Now, in my 170, and the 172C I fly, it takes a little more effort to deploy the flaps. I personally don't have a need for the extender, but I can see how a person with shorter arms might want one.
 
Mike Boehler said:
My limited time in the 140, I noticed that the flap handle tends to want to fly out of my hand. I got slapped (figuratively) for letting it fly to the floor after landing. In actuality, it slipped out of my hand. I didn't say anything, just took my tongue lashing. Didn't want to sound like I was making excuses.
Click to expand...

the glue on the rubber/plastic handle cover disappears over time, and it's real easy to "twist" when holding on to it. This happens to me far too frequently - pulling up is no problem but when I need to release the flap, the plastic cover twists in my hand and I get the "crash" of the bar to the floor.

Just haven't gotten around to fixing it...one of these days.
 
murphey said:
With only a single door, armrests in a cherokee are a safety hazard.
Click to expand...
The Debonair I fly has a single door - but there is an arm rest that can pop up between the seats.
 
the 421 only had one door, and had arm rests. i didn't realize i lived so dangerously. but damn it was nice to have an armrest
 
Mike Boehler said:
My limited time in the 140, I noticed that the flap handle tends to want to fly out of my hand. I got slapped (figuratively) for letting it fly to the floor after landing. In actuality, it slipped out of my hand. I didn't say anything, just took my tongue lashing. Didn't want to sound like I was making excuses.



I think I should abandon the idea of flap handle as an armrest.

To be clear, once again, I wasn't really looking for a way to lean on the flap extension handle for comfort. It seems wrong in the most simplistic common sense way, but man, I found myself leaning right and resting for the first time in the Cherokee and that's why. I'll learn another way of adjusting myself to be comfortable. Hopefully.
Click to expand...

I have found myself resting my hand on the flap handle to make power adjustments too when I have full flaps sometimes. It's just handy to put your hand there. Completely understandable.

When I'm on a solo trip I will put my flight bag right next to me and rest my arm on it or I will slide the passenger seat up and use the seat back as an armrest. For many years I drove a truck with a straight bench seat so I have been known to get creative when it comes to an armrest.
 
Every time you fly spend a couple of minutes flying with the hands off the yoke... Use the elevator trim handle as your pitch control and the rudder pedals as yaw and roll control... Your brain will quickly retrain itself as to which way to turn the handle...

denny-o
 
Fearless Tower said:
Are you sure about armrests between the front seats?

The photos you linked show the adjustable armrest that is between the back two seats.

I haven't flown a new model Saratoga, but the earlier ones most definitely DO NOT have armrests between the front seats. There is an armrest on the pilot's left side, but not between the seats - If you did have an armrest between the front seats, it would block your access to the trim wheel and emergency gear extension.

Edit - okay, looked at the photo again and saw the thin swing down armrest on the co-pilot seat. That is definitely a new addition (something you won't see on eariler PA32s). I thought you were talking about that pain-in-the-arse collapsable armrest between the back seats.
Click to expand...

I didn't even notice it until I saw my friend resting on the other one.

It's on both front seats. It's recessed into the seatback when stowed.
It was kind of weird the first time I used it - you pull it towards the other seat before it swings down. I'll see if I can get a picture of it down if I fly that plane again.

It really was comfortable and nice to live on the edge.
 
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