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Discussion in 'Pilot Training' started by Probablyflying, Feb 3, 2022.
Sounds like a nice guy.
As far as legitimacy of the questions, does the ACS state that questions have to be specific to the aircraft used for the checkride?
As far as not knowing the answers, you’re claiming the time, you should have a reasonable knowledge of the airplane. The questions you mentioned really aren’t that deep.
Have you used this examiner before? Who knows what happened but sounds like a bad day and a bit of an ego competition. Be humble, offer the opportunity to look up the answers and mention where and how you’d find them instead of guessing. I would be thrown off if being questioned on another aircraft too, I do fly different types of aircraft but it doesn’t mean I memorized everything about each one either.
So what happened?
Get all of your data for the planes you flown and try again. The oral checkride is open book.
Why post about it if you already have a plan and have formulated an opinion of the examiner?
I wouldn’t. The likelihood of it going anywhere is slim.
I think the examiner was absolutely correct. Duties of PIC time means there is a CFI on board in an aircraft you otherwise are fully capable of flying solo. This means you know the POH, systems, ect.
Pick yourself up, study hard, and try again with another examiner. Better show up being able to talk about the planes you log time in.
Can we hear his side of the story?
How do you do the duties of PIC without knowing enough about the airplane’s systems to describe them, even in very general terms?
Based on your description, it sounds to me like the examiner noticed a distinct lack of professionalism from someone who wants to be a professional pilot.
What did I miss?
“The examiner had it in for me.”
When I interview someone for an engineering job, they can expect to be quizzed about anything they wrote on their resume. If you say you have done something it's fair game for detailed questions.
Same thing here.
Well I’m certainly happy they didn’t ask questions about types I flew in the past. There were numerous, and some were years before the checkride (using ATP as a reference. Did in a Seneca… assuming type rides don’t count for questions about other planes).
Who remembers a V speed from a plane they flew 10 years ago?
Personally I think he was just a jerk.
Uh oh. Did you reboot? Make sure it was plugged in?
Always intriguing when people delete the post, but leave the topic up... What was the issue with this guy?
Apparently remembering V speeds from an airplane you flew last week, and intend to continue flying, is unreasonable, too.
Where is the cutoff? And although I’m not typed in the CE-525, my guess is the CJ does not publish a Vno.
I guess @Probablyflying didn't like the replies, since the original post is gone. Wonder if he's on some other forum complaining POA is unfair.....
I don’t know where the cutoff is, but stating that the airplane was there to fulfill the requirements of “duties of PIC”, but it’s only XC time and one doesn’t need to know the systems seems like a pretty good indicator to me.
We're only hearing one side. The DPE may have had good reason to suspect some exaggeration of experience
We’re not even hearing one side anymore.
I do not completely disagree. Not saying this was the case with the OP, but I do feel there is too much time logging under the guise of instruction, or a right seat guy who works at the FBO and dumps the lav in exchange for right seat time (without truly learning the airplane).
Not only that, but you are required to talk about and have knowledge about systems and conditions that you may never have been anywhere near.
Over water commercial ops, part 91 ops vs part 135, Icing, FIKI, Pressurization, Medical Factors, Endorsements for High Altitude...
Oh hell, even departure and arrival procedures in the midwest. (Which you won't get until you are well into the Teens, so turboprops or maybe turbo pistons..)
But then again, the OP deleted their post. So who knows?
Perhaps he didn't remember anything else about the plane? How much time did he log in this plane? Was it 1 hour or 100, and how much did he know.
We will never know.
When I took my PP checkride, I was flying a Tecnam LSA that had a G3X Touch; no steam gauges. But that didn't stop the DPE from asking me about vacuum systems. I was on Basic Med, but he still asked about renewals for a Class 3.
It's almost like you were tested for your license, and not what you brought that day?
I'm not as hard over as some of the others on being able to remember every detail of every airplane you've ever flown. But if I remember the OP's case, he or she had been flying a 414 as PDPIC to count for some of the training hours, though they took the checkride in a Seneca. Well, for "performing the duties as PIC", the CFI is intended to sit there and not do anything or help. So, if you're logging PDPIC, you should be fully capable of flying the airplane yourself, you just have the CFI along for insurance purposes.
And being that it was recent time (if I remember right) and specifically being used toward the checkride requirements, I think it's completely fair game for questions on a checkride. Otherwise it very much does seem like padding. That time-building to meet the Comm requirements is supposed to be valuable time, not just checking a box by riding along and questionably logging it as PDPIC. I think the DPE was right to probe a little deeper and see if that was "real" time or just slightly more legit than pencil-whipping time.
There was also the issue of some time in a CJ. I forget how recent this was, but I feel that's a little different case (as long as they weren't trying to log it as PDPIC). There are a whole ton of pilots who have a couple hours of instruction in a CJ - it wouldn't be PIC time or even PDPIC time, but if the CJ is being flown single-pilot and the pilot is an MEI, then some "intro to jet operations"-type instruction is perfectly legal and can be useful training even if the trainee doesn't know everything about all the systems and speeds and whatever. And if the applicant does want to go on and fly CJs, they're going to have to get a type rating anyway, so they'll learn all that stuff in detail. So I think the DPE seeing an hour or two of CJ training and then asking anything more than "how was that? fun?" is out of place.
Of course, we heard only one side of the story, so who knows.
Yeah, I need to get into the habit of quoting the original post so it can’t disappear.....
You screwed up and then you come on here hoping we will make you feel better.
You need to study, a lot and then take it again with the same DPE. If you run away from him you lose.
I read it yesterday...yes quoting it is always best in these cases.
This place needs to be sprayed.
I legitimately used some glider cross country hours for my commercial and ATP certificates. It's been awhile, but I don't remember a single question in either oral about glider ops. (Just trying to put a little levity in this thread that has gone off the rails as most eventually do.)
And this is why I'd make a lousy DPE. I'd see that in your application and would spend the rest of the checkride being fascinated and asking you all about glider cross country flying.
One wonders how much differently this would have gone had the DPE asked the Vno in the CJ and the applicant answered, "I don't know that but if the plane has a published Vno we can find it in the POH. It definitely climbs better than the Seneca we're flying today!" The applicant here just gave his best guesses at the questions he didn't know. That fits into the hazardous attitudes that the FAA probably wants examiners to nip in the bud.
Of course, the real problem here was the 414 time. His boss is an MEI with a 414 who let the applicant log 10 hours of DPIC from the right seat, all in cruise, specifically for the purpose of getting to the check ride with less expense than actually paying for an airplane and instructor. If you're willing to pad your logbook like that, who's to say that you haven't done the same in other places?
Using time earned in a different category wasn’t the situation here. Basically, the OP had a lot of time logged as dual received in cabin class twins without having a multi rating. While it isn’t uncommon to see some time logged that way, I’d consider it uncommon to have 100+ hours like that and holding no multi rating. Reading between the lines, I suspect the DPE assumed that the OP was sitting right seat and maybe running the radios while his boss was doing the flying. Since the OP was trying to earn a commercial certificate and was expected to know about things such as aircraft systems, limitations, and aeromedical factors, the DPE decided to ask about things related to other aircraft the OP was claiming time in, likely to check some boxes in the ACS and also determine if the OP was actually flying the airplane or just logging the time.
Admittedly, I don’t know that I could list off things like all the V speeds for every aircraft I regularly perfectly, so I can feel for the OP there. But I can most certainly get close on them and I can tell you about the systems for all the aircraft I regularly fly and many I don’t.
Id be curious to hear the DPE’s side of the story on this. I’m betting that if we knew his story, we’d find that he was being at least somewhat reasonable.
Well, one typically wouldn’t have CE-414 PIC experience before getting their ME rating. That struck me as unusual. That is if I recall his post correctly.
Well that is disappointing.