I can see why some potential students give up flying.

Discussion in 'Flight Following' started by FloridaPilot, Jun 12, 2017.

  1. danhagan

    danhagan Pattern Altitude

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    I was lucky, mine was patient and explained "learning speed bumps" that all students encounter. We always had a pre and post flight brief, he was patient and didn't charge for ground time (he would spend at least 30 minutes going over the days lesson before getting in the plane and no less than 15 minutes on post flight review). We have great CFIs in my area.:D
     
  2. dmspilot

    dmspilot En-Route

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    That sounds exceptionally bad, what area of the country do you live in?
     
  3. Clip4

    Clip4 Final Approach

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  4. James331

    James331 Ejection Handle Pulled

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    ZERO reason for a CFI to touch you, shy of you having a death grip on the controls, which I've never had happen.

    That said, you want me to tell you you suck, or do you want to find out when you spin it in with you wife and kids screaming?

    As for talking of other CFIs, the guy could be looking for advice or just voicing frustration, ether way you should have thicker skin if you're going to be a pilot.
     
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  5. pkuhns

    pkuhns Pre-Flight

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    Love this - makes sense and seems like a win-win for both sides.
     
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  6. pkuhns

    pkuhns Pre-Flight

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    Never been yelled at by a CFI. I wonder if something super scary happened and he/she was venting...
     
  7. BigBadLou

    BigBadLou Final Approach

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    I guess I'll be another strange one here.
    While I do agree that the CFI's behavior was not on par (there are good teachers and bad teachers out there, regardless of what field), I don't feel bad if that dissuades a student from flying. My reasoning is that we need competent and decisive individuals to act at PICs, not weak minds who run off at the first hint of trouble.
    Yes, I realize this will sound harsh to some but PICs need a strong will to live and ability to ensure the safe outcome of the flight.

    To add an anecdote: during my basic training, I flew a few times with a friend who is a 10,000-hr ATP (no, not a cattle hauler) and used to be a CFI. He kinda chewed me out for doing something wrong once. It did not feel good because he wasn't very nice about it but I realized that his feedback if more valuable than any butthurt feelings. I asked him to fly with me again next time and observe me and provide constructive feedback on what I was doing wrong and how I needed to fix it. Which was much more productive than the alternative.

    While as humans we don't appreciate negative feedback much, it is still feedback and can be valuable so it should not be always avoided or dismissed. If it can be turned into constructive feedback, all the better.

    Now go fly and don't yell at anyone, please. :)
     
  8. jordane93

    jordane93 Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Criticism is good as long as you back it up and tell the student how to properly correct their mistakes. If all you do is say, "well your landing sucked, stalls were outside of PTS standards, you missed some radio calls, etc," then the student is going to feel like garbage. I never just tell the student what he/she did wrong and end the brief. I always find something positive to say about the flight and how they can correct their mistakes. I also try to get their feedback on how they think they can correct their mistake. Suckers are still paying me when they can figure out how to correct their errors on their own:).
     
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  9. Harold Rutila

    Harold Rutila Pre-takeoff checklist

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    New students who are subjected to bad instruction often lack positive outlooks on the learning process. Whenever you can talk to a student pilot about how their journey towards certification is going, even if you "only" have 100 hours, those conversations can enlighten and encourage them. Emphasize that an instructor switch is a simple matter of presenting a passport and a credit card to the new training provider. The requirements for switching instructors and flight schools is pretty low, contrary to popular belief among student pilots.
     
  10. MAKG1

    MAKG1 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    You're not that odd...

    My primary instructor was definitely too timid. I had to tell her at one point that I was a musician and hearing something sucked when it did was entirely expected, and built credibility. I always felt she was trying hard not to offend, to the point where it started to interfere. My instrument instructor was much better.
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2017
  11. FloridaPilot

    FloridaPilot Pattern Altitude

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    I don't want to get on your bad side because I don't wanna be dealt with: ;)


    I don't know what it is, but people on here think that yelling is going to hurt feelings...it might or it might not. The problem I have is the CFI was yelling at the student around people that didn't need to hear what was said. He handled it unprofessionally, he should've taken the student in a private area and spoke to him...man to man. Instead of yelling at him and looking around at others for recognition.
     
  12. \__[Ô]__/

    \__[Ô]__/ Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Independent CFI or working for a school/FBO?

    The CFI at a local FBO had a reputation for yelling at students - in the plane, on the ground, alone, or in the FBO lobby in front of people - didn't seem to matter. A lot of students took a couple flights and went elsewhere.

    Problem wasn't the CFI. It was the FBO who let their CFI go off on students. They could have stepped in and stopped it, but they didn't. Either they didn't realize it was an issue or they didn't care. Neither is the hallmark of a good operation.

    I'd be wary of any place that let their CFIs treat students poorly. They probably have other issues.
     
  13. FloridaPilot

    FloridaPilot Pattern Altitude

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    I believe he works for a school but I'm not sure which one. I never seen him before and I'm glad, I would have him dealt wit like @Skyrys62 said.
     
  14. Skyrys62

    Skyrys62 En-Route

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    Meet the Fokkers
    yeah...

     
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  15. Clip4

    Clip4 Final Approach

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    Next time your student has lost SA with respect to wind, a couple of taps on their shoulder from the direction of the wind orients them rather quickly and it is not something students take objection to.

    On the flip side, I have a foreign female student who's culture is a hug saying goodbye. Which is a no no.
     
  16. James331

    James331 Ejection Handle Pulled

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    I don't care about their objections lol
    Also don't walk on eggshells, I'm a nice agreeable dude, but I'm not wasting my mental RAM worrying about what might hurt someone's feeling.

    I just let them try to land with a tailwind, it's well within my "save able" margins, and they learn more that way.
     
  17. FloridaPilot

    FloridaPilot Pattern Altitude

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    If she's good looking I will take the hugs for you...;)

    Why would you want to land with a tailwind?
     
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  18. Clip4

    Clip4 Final Approach

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    Ever hear of ground reference manuvers?
     
  19. FloridaPilot

    FloridaPilot Pattern Altitude

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    Actually...yes. What is your point?
     
  20. Clip4

    Clip4 Final Approach

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    Disregard, you are clueless.
     
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  21. FloridaPilot

    FloridaPilot Pattern Altitude

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    Thank you for your comment. ;)
     
  22. Anthony

    Anthony Touchdown! Greaser!

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    I remember a lot of students dropping out in the ground school class I was in. I loved every minute of it, but others not so much. There were a few guys with Harleys in the class, and they went back to just riding their bikes as they didn't want the brain damage of all the prep to fly. Part of it was probably the cost also. I was lucky, as I had a good instructor who I was able to stay with the entire time.
     
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  23. JimNtexas

    JimNtexas Pattern Altitude

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    " was at an FBO and I overheard a CFI "Light" into his student. "

    WTF? There is no, zero, nada, excuse for that!

    First of all, instructors should praise in public and correct in private.

    Second, ranting at student is going to set them back, not help them.

    Third, a CFI like that is going to put his employer out of business if not corrected. Even the student was an overseas student who made the mistake of paying $65K in advance, that student has friends and family who are going to share this horrible customer service experience.

    Even military instruction, ranting and raving in public is not something that happens short of really gross misconduct, such the time a pilot fell asleep in a flight briefing. But civil or military, getting emotional rarely helps and usually slows progress.

    STOP DOING THAT!!!!!!!!!!
     
  24. dmspilot

    dmspilot En-Route

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    I don't know what it means to "light" into someone. Sounds like a pretty vague term. We also don't know if the conversation took place in public or if OP was eavesdropping. There are not many places in a typical flight school or FBO that you can go where NO ONE can possibly hear you. Also possible that the student had a bad attitude. Two sides to every story. We weren't there.
     
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  25. NoBShere

    NoBShere Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I had a few instructors during ppl training due to one instructor moved, one had a baby and the others were just doing whatever they could to get me done! It was actually pretty cool, I felt like I had all these people "in my corner". I had a lot of people to thank when I finally took care of business! but, there was one that I only flew with once, when asked I simply said we weren't compatible.

    I will also add my view on criticism. I played competitive sports under different styles of coaches. One similarity they all had, if they weren't on you (in a constructive way but, very direct positive and negative) during practice you had no chance of getting the nod to start in the next game.
     
  26. FloridaPilot

    FloridaPilot Pattern Altitude

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    You're lucky indeed, how long ago did you get your primary? Most CFI's today are looking to get into the airlines and are not teaching very long.

    "Light" into someone is a metaphor for yelling at someone. I overhead them because I ran into the FBO to use the bathroom he was yelling at him for a few things one of them was the pattern work they worked on. Not remembering when to turn.... etc The student wasn't yelling back, just taking it. He really had a discouraging look on his face which sparked this thread. I don't have a problem with the yelling if it needs to be done like I mentioned before just how it was handled. Take him in the back and work it out, don't look around while yelling for recognition either I just think that's messed up. I didn't have a dog in that fight so I stayed quiet.
     
  27. dmspilot

    dmspilot En-Route

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    If he was actually yelling, literally and not figuratively, then I would agree it was inappropriate, unprofessional, and also quite unusual.
     
  28. Blueangel

    Blueangel Line Up and Wait

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    Good instructors do not yell at students!
     
  29. Zeldman

    Zeldman Touchdown! Greaser!

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    A friend works at a flight school that does international students. He tells me that some are so arrogant that studying is beneath them.

    He will take those students aside and give them an old fashioned chewing out. It seems to get them studying for a few days.

    These foreign students will pass. Their country or company pays all the cost for them to get the private certificate.
     
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  30. spiderweb

    spiderweb Final Approach

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    The answer is a CFI who knows how to teach, including how to read a student's attitude and ability.

     
  31. spiderweb

    spiderweb Final Approach

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    This is good advice.
     
  32. spiderweb

    spiderweb Final Approach

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    There is nothing wrong with yelling at a student (in private), if it works for that student's personality and learning style. Are we all going to get sad and afraid if our teacher yells at us? What about when you lose an engine--is that going to hurt your feelings? Or something else?

    A bad teacher only points out errors.
    A good teacher points out errors and explains how to fix them, allowing the student to do that.
    An excellent teacher does all of the above, but also teaches the student to teach themselves once they learn, thereby leading to wisdom.
     
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  33. spiderweb

    spiderweb Final Approach

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    Why?
     
  34. ocflyer

    ocflyer Pre-Flight

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    I was fortunate enough to have very good CFIs for my private/instrument/multi. Part of this was knowing what to look for (I come from a family of pilots), part of it is just the good fortune of them being relatively local (I went to a further airport than the closest one to me just for this reason, it added 30 minutes to the commute and was worth every extra hour of my life spent on the road).

    Students should take on the mindset of quality of instruction has a direct correlation to your chances of survival, it may not be 1:1 but it is certainly a factor.

    The CFIs who are good are ones who actually enjoy the job (hard to find them though in today's race to 1,500 environment, but they do exist, even some young ones!).

    My take away is that no yelling is required and it is counterproductive.

    A good CFI has a very strong set of communications skills and is flexible and adaptable to the way a particular student learns. Then if you aren't listening, they put you in a (relatively safe) situation where you see the err of your way(s).

    A controlled yet bad situation that they allow to develop to a certain point because you weren't listening is for many a person a sobering reality check that I really need to pay attention or ask more questions if something isn't computing. It is ALL mental. My instructors never touched the controls except for initial landing learning/guidance, unless they wanted to demonstrate something (and asked for the controls, didn't just take them). I never had the controls taken from me, although certainly they would if a situation developed into an actual dangerous situation (which happened with some other multi students RE: low altitude engine-out mistakes), but I think this would be one of my initial evaluations of an instructor.

    Do they (calmly) "use their words" and are tolerant of initially sloppy airmanship without needing to have feet planted on the rudders and/or hands on the stick/yoke all the time? Do they know how to let you get yourself into enough trouble and then talk you back out of it? Are they just interested in showing you how good they fly the plane and how poorly you fly it / an ego thing? Good instructors are like jedi mind trick guys, and what is rewarding to them is to take some poor sap like me and turn him into a safe and competent pilot with just their words.

    Watch out for the ones who are not into it and just marking time to 1,500 hours, they are bad news for you and as I said there is a correlation between quality of instruction/mentorship and survival. You are buying the most valuable insurance policy by getting top tier instruction, and the muscle memory, habits, and way of thinking developed early on is a foundation that if it isn't right can be very painful to fix later.

    As an aside I think the reason a lot of people quit (beyond economics) is that they don't have a mission, and it is a lot of work to go through if you don't have a mission, then it is just a matter of how strong is the passion, as that is the only thing left. Look at people who live in Manhattan, I know people who live there that don't have a driver's license, they don't know how to drive! It sounds crazy to many of us, but for them they grew up without a mission requirement, and so to them it makes sense.
     
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  35. James331

    James331 Ejection Handle Pulled

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    To demonstrate
    A if can be done
    B be wind aware of be tuff
     
  36. Kritchlow

    Kritchlow Final Approach

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    I never yelled, but did take tone with one student many years ago when I was an instructor.
    He did his long 300 mile XC and planned to fuel at his second stop.
    He opted not to once he got there. He landed back at the home drome and the fueler informed us he put 23.8 gallons in the 24.0 gallon tank (don't quote me on the tank size, but he landed with 0.2 gals).
    I didn't "light" into him until the next dual lesson, and even then I didn't yell. He did know I was not happy by my tone however.
     
  37. FloridaPilot

    FloridaPilot Pattern Altitude

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    I can honestly say all of the CFI's I had went to the Airlines..."poof" gone. I would still like to go up with a GOOD CFI to check and see if I have any bad habits.
     
  38. FloridaPilot

    FloridaPilot Pattern Altitude

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    Yep, I know it can be done. Jumping off of the Brooklyn Bridge can be done too but why would you do it unless an emergency?

    That is a VERY bad habit that some pilots have. On the other hand I'm very fuel happy. I like to fill at every stop, I know I won't be able to carry much but you won't hear about me running out of fuel. I don't like to leave fuel at the FBO because one day I'm going to wish I had it.
     
  39. James331

    James331 Ejection Handle Pulled

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    You're comparing landing with a tailwind to jumping off a bridge? Saying its a emergency only option? You know there are quite a few one way in one way out fields where it's common to have a little tailwind.

    Landing with a tailwind isn't that big of a deal, however it is something some inexperienced might not show a student, and something students might build a irrational fear over, much the boogieman base/final stall spin.

    Go up with a good CFI and do some tailwind stuff, it's really nowhere near as bad as you think it is.
     
  40. SkyDog58

    SkyDog58 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Many backcountry strips are one way in and one way out. If you are not willing to either takeoff or land with a tailwind, you probably ain't going there.
     
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