Hypothetical scenario

Richard

Richard

Final Approach
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Ack...city life
You are Pt 135 departing a towered airport. TWR says to expedite your take off for landing traffic to which you acknowledge, "Nxxxx rolling 26R." In a very urgent voice, TWR comes back to say, "Cancel take off clearance."

You roll to exit the rwy. You have no idea what just happened. While you taxi back to the departure end, ground gives you a number to call.

Would you delay your departure to make the call or would you fly your route and call from the other end? Is there any legality which would forbid you from departing?
 
I would probably note the time, depart, and call when I land. If they wanted me to call right away, they would say something to that effect. I've heard similar situations happen to folks in the past, and they seemed to wait until they landed to deal with the facility.

That said, I don't exactly understand why they want to talk to you in the scenario outlined above. Everything looks normal to me.
 
I'd ask ground if I needed to call now, or if I could contact tower. Tower isn't gonna give you clearance to depart, and Ground shouldn't switch you to tower, unless you're OK to go.
 
As Tim indicated, you don't have a takeoff clearance. If they're not okay with you calling when you reach your destination, they won't give you one!
 
Is that reliance on a take off clearance as an indication that everything is cool actually nothing more than abdication of PIC responsibilities?
 
NO, you still have to call, but unless ground tells you to taxi back to the ramp and call right now, they've got no reason to assume you're going to call right this instant.
 
Richard said:
You are Pt 135 departing a towered airport. TWR says to expedite your take off for landing traffic to which you acknowledge, "Nxxxx rolling 26R." In a very urgent voice, TWR comes back to say, "Cancel take off clearance."
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In this scenario you have stated that tower tells you to 'cancel your TO clearance'. Yet I see no clearance actually given.

If it is just not missing from your narrative then I would say the pilot should not have taken the runway and started his roll. I have heard towers tell you to be prepared to expedite, then once given the magic words, 'cleared for take off' you can pass the hold short line and proceed.

Richard said:
You roll to exit the rwy. You have no idea what just happened. While you taxi back to the departure end, ground gives you a number to call.
You are going to have to talk to someone anyways as you are now going to need new taxing instructions.

Would you delay your departure to make the call or would you fly your route and call from the other end? Is there any legality which would forbid you from departing?
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I would ask if they wanted me to call right then.
 
[7500] Scott, where do you find these avatars? I love the squirrel drinking Guinness![/7500]
 
I think I'd reply, "Ground, 22RL, roger, I'll call when I land. BTW, can you tell my why Tower cancelled my takeoff clearance after I started rolling?" What happens next would depend on Ground's response.
 
Ron Levy said:
I think I'd reply, "Ground, 22RL, roger, I'll call when I land. BTW, can you tell my why Tower cancelled my takeoff clearance after I started rolling?" What happens next would depend on Ground's response.
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I think I like this the best so far.:yes:
 
Getting a number isn't always a bad thing. A month or so ago I was flying out of Dulles, they did something like this, except they canceled our landing clearance when we were at about 700 feet (a 737 down field hadn't read back a hold short and was rolling toward our runway...they ended up holding short, but the tower controller was just being safe). When they switched us over to Approach on the downwind, the approach controller gave us a phone number, said it was the tower super and they wanted to talk to us. We came back around and landed without incident.

Captain and I went inside and called the tower. It was the super, and he just wanted to apologize for the go around and explain what had happened.

The phone number isn't always bad, and if it's something important (if you really screwed up) they would make sure you know it before you do anything else, especially if you're on the ground at the time.
 
Only time I was ever told to call the tower it was landing at KBMI. I asked for taxi to 'Arnie's', the restaurant on the field. Tower authorized the taxi and gave me a number to call. After shut down I called them and they asked if I could bring them up dinner form Arnie's!
 
This is one of those where you kinda need to hear the tapes, with the times on them. I think we're not getting all the verbiage that went on both ways.

I remember getting one of those expedite instructions, and as best I can recall, I got 'Cessna 12345 cleared for immediate takeoff no delay'. As the ctlr was speaking the word 'immediate', I was pushing the throttle up, turning to the active, and holding inside aileron. It's all in context with these deals.
 
docmirror said:
This is one of those where you kinda need to hear the tapes, with the times on them. I think we're not getting all the verbiage that went on both ways.

I remember getting one of those expedite instructions, and as best I can recall, I got 'Cessna 12345 cleared for immediate takeoff no delay'. As the ctlr was speaking the word 'immediate', I was pushing the throttle up, turning to the active, and holding inside aileron. It's all in context with these deals.
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I am still going with there was no take off clearance given.

Richard wrote that the tower said "expedite your take off for landing traffic" That is different than what you wrote and what I would expect for a take off clearance, "Cessna 12345 cleared for immediate takeoff no delay"
 
I agree. "Snuffy 69, expidite takeoff for arriving traffic" does not equal "Snuffy 69, cleared for takeoff. Expidite for arriving traffic". If I don't hear the three magic words "cleared for takeoff", the aircraft only rolls to exit the runway because I'm not sitting on the runway knowing there may be traffic on short final and getting closer and I have not been issued a T/O clearance.
 
AWACSEng said:
I agree. "Snuffy 69, expidite takeoff for arriving traffic" does not equal "Snuffy 69, cleared for takeoff. Expidite for arriving traffic". If I don't hear the three magic words "cleared for takeoff", the aircraft only rolls to exit the runway because I'm not sitting on the runway knowing there may be traffic on short final and getting closer and I have not been issued a T/O clearance.
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Nice tac callsign. We used to be 'Love 69' in the RC
 
AWACSEng said:
Can't be love, it's not five letters. (wink)
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Sure it can. That must be a new format as I never heard of it having to 5 characters before, we used it all the time in the 1980's. If one looks they can probably still see where I had the darn thing written on my hand with a sharpie for each flight. Or don't you do that anymore?

I am trying to think of some of the other ones we used but that one sticks for some reason. I know when we were state side the call sign was LOOK, also 4 letters.
 
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smigaldi said:
I am still going with there was no take off clearance given.

Richard wrote that the tower said "expedite your take off for landing traffic" That is different than what you wrote and what I would expect for a take off clearance, "Cessna 12345 cleared for immediate takeoff no delay"
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Gee, why do you think I want to hear the tapes? Like I said, I don't think we're getting all the discussion yet.

Tenatively, I agree with you, but it could be construed by the words 'expidite your takeoff' that a clearance was given. Although it's thin, I'd take it to the review board and take my chances(this is where Ron will opine that I would loose).
 
I think you'd lose as well, but at that point what do you have to lose? Like I said above, no explicit clearance, no takeoff roll.
 
docmirror said:
This is one of those where you kinda need to hear the tapes, with the times on them. I think we're not getting all the verbiage that went on both ways.
Click to expand...

Tapes? This is a *hypothetical* scenario - Or so we think. Richard? ;)

I remember getting one of those expedite instructions, and as best I can recall, I got 'Cessna 12345 cleared for immediate takeoff no delay'. As the ctlr was speaking the word 'immediate', I was pushing the throttle up, turning to the active, and holding inside aileron. It's all in context with these deals.
Click to expand...

When they clear for immediate/no delay, isn't there supposed to be an explanation of why? (ie traffic on a mile final...) Or is that just the excellent controllers we have at MSN?

I don't recall any particularly exciting expedited takeoff clearances, but the one where I called for my IFR clearance and got a minute and a half void time was a bit exciting!
 
smigaldi said:
I am still going with there was no take off clearance given.

Richard wrote that the tower said "expedite your take off for landing traffic" That is different than what you wrote and what I would expect for a take off clearance, "Cessna 12345 cleared for immediate takeoff no delay"
Click to expand...

Alternate scenario that I think fits better. Airplane is given takeoff clearance, putts onto the runway, lines up, does final checks... Tower comes on and says "expedite your takeoff" - in other words, hurry up!.

This hypothetical is missing so much information it's like watching a a Quentin Tarantino film from the middle.
 
TMetzinger said:
Alternate scenario that I think fits better. Airplane is given takeoff clearance, putts onto the runway, lines up, does final checks... Tower comes on and says "expedite your takeoff" - in other words, hurry up!.

This hypothetical is missing so much information it's like watching a a Quentin Tarantino film from the middle.
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Except that with Tarantino the beginning of the movie is the middle, and the middle is the beginning!
 
EdFred said:
Except that with Tarantino the beginning of the movie is the middle, and the middle is the beginning!
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The best part of a Tarantino movie is figuring out the timeline. I would like to see him re-cut Kill Bill into the movie he wanted instead of the two parter that the studio forced him into.
 
Folks, this is HYPOTHETICAL. There are no tapes, there is not a NTSB report. Sheesh

Missing information??? You want to know what engines, how much fuel onboard, when did the pilot take a crap, is he current, blah blah blah....geeze ****ing louise

That's what you get for being admin, you forgot how to piece together information instead of waiting for a full blown study.
Like hell do I use cover letters on my TSO reports.
 
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I belive those are TPS reports...sheesh. And as far as the hypothetical situation, there wasn't enough info to come to a logical conclusion with out speculation and/or making assumptions.
 
Richard said:
Folks, this is HYPOTHETICAL. There are no tapes, there is not a NTSB report. Sheesh

Missing information??? You want to know what engines, how much fuel onboard, when did the pilot take a crap, is he current, blah blah blah....geeze ****ing louise

That's what you get for being admin, you forgot how to piece together information instead of waiting for a full blown study.
Like hell do I use cover letters on my TSO reports.
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I wanna know if the tower actually issued a takeoff clearance, which was implied, but not explicitly stated.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Tapes? This is a *hypothetical* scenario - Or so we think. Richard? ;)



When they clear for immediate/no delay, isn't there supposed to be an explanation of why? (ie traffic on a mile final...) Or is that just the excellent controllers we have at MSN?
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Let me rephrase, I'd like to hear the hypothetical tapes of the discussion.

When I was cleared for the no delay, the reason was pretty obvious. I was at Renton, WA and there was something fairly large with several engines coming down final. I moved it. :yes:
 
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