How Would It Be For A New CFI In This Environment

[Flyparrothead]

Just wondering what everyone's thoughts on a new CFI and the likelihood of finding a job in this economy are. If you are a CFI, is your flight school hiring new CFI's or have you cut back? Just kind of wondering as I am hoping to finish my commercial license this month and jump right into the CFI training.

 

[dmccormack]

Don't quit yer day job...



I'm a part time CFI -- System Engineering for a big multinational consulting firm does wonders for keeping the mortgage paid and the cars running.

I don't know anyone in this area making a living as a CFI except for a few freshouts working at a nearby pilot mill -- they are willing to live on ramen and sleep on a mat from IKEA in exchange for the hours.

 

[jesse]

If you get your CFI and you are willing to move anywhere in the country you will find a CFI job. That said-- you'll make more money greeting customers at Walmart. (There are exceptions to this..but a CFI with no experience starting at a flight school is not one of them)

 

[wabower]

Well it's not worth a **** for most of the old ones; maybe you can help change their luck.

 

[Flyparrothead]

Don't quit yer day job...

Yeah, that is what my CFI is telling me right now. I have a pretty good job with Logitech right now, but he keeps advising me to flight instruct part time and still work part time at my regular job.

By the way, do you instruct around the Pittsburgh area? I did a cross country from Charlotte, NC to Washington, PA (AFJ). Very friendly staff at the FBO there.

 

[Ted]

I'd agree... once I get my CFI, I'm intending on doing "hobby" CFIing, not full time. My day job pays much better. The reality is, for the number of students I can get around here, that's only enough to keep me busy after work hours anyway. You'd likely find similar.

 

[wabower]

They (the hobby students) mostly just get in the way of doing other things that are more productive or more fun.

I'd agree... once I get my CFI, I'm intending on doing "hobby" CFIing, not full time. My day job pays much better. The reality is, for the number of students I can get around here, that's only enough to keep me busy after work hours anyway. You'd likely find similar.

 

[Ted]

They (the hobby students) mostly just get in the way of doing other things that are more productive or more fun.

Depends. I was a pretty serious student, still working on it only during non-working hours. I'm not going to be interested in taking on students who aren't interested in learning.

 

[wabower]

I didn't say they weren't serious, I said they got in the way. Like on some real nice evening when you'd like to fly somewhere or work on the plane or do something fun and you have committed to go to the airport to fly in circles with somebody. It's hard (or was for me) to find the right balance. That's why I limited my teaching time to FR's, IPC's and special- problem situations.

Depends. I was a pretty serious student, still working on it only during non-working hours. I'm not going to be interested in taking on students who aren't interested in learning.

 

[dmccormack]

Yeah, that is what my CFI is telling me right now. I have a pretty good job with Logitech right now, but he keeps advising me to flight instruct part time and still work part time at my regular job.

By the way, do you instruct around the Pittsburgh area? I did a cross country from Charlotte, NC to Washington, PA (AFJ). Very friendly staff at the FBO there.

Yep.. I'm glad you had a good experience!

I know a couple of the "Full time" CFIs there.

One sold his practice as an obstetrician, the other has a nuclear engineering consulting business.

They ain't in CFIing for the money...

 

[John Baker]

If you get a job with a school, you will probably make 15-20 dollars an hour. You could find a flying club that lets members take instruction in their planes. Then start your business.

Run some classified ads for private instruction at about fifty dollars an hour. Have your students join the flying club, hold their hand, make joining easy, then you are in your very own business. If you get too busy, you can hire CFIs for about 15-20 dollars an hour. Put an ad in the yellow pages under flying instruction. Your students can get insurance through AOPA.

John

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

Depends. I was a pretty serious student, still working on it only during non-working hours. I'm not going to be interested in taking on students who aren't interested in learning.

I don't mind the few ones that aren't interested in learning, I just fly around with them wherever I like anyway! No problem, lets me do more actual flying.

 

[poadeleted20]

Probably the best money anyone can make as a CFI is instructing for one of the big sim-based outfits like RTC, SimCom, or Flight Safety. However, you're going to need a bunch of medium to heavy multiengine jet time to get hired, and that's not something a "new" CFI is likely to have. As stated, in most cases, CFI is the entry-level pilot position where new working pilots gain enough experience to get a better pilot job, and most CFI jobs pay accordingly. Some folks with a lot more experience can get better pay for instructing, but you're going to need thousands of hours and decades of experience to get to where you can charge that kind of money.

 

[DutchessFlier]

To quote Wayne: "I didn't say they weren't serious, I said they got in the way. Like on some real nice evening when you'd like to fly somewhere or work on the plane or do something fun and you have committed to go to the airport to fly in circles with somebody. It's hard (or was for me) to find the right balance. That's why I limited my teaching time to FR's, IPC's and special- problem situations."

This is one of the first comments in POA that I find unfortunate, Wayne. Like alot of us 'hobby students' I am sure that we take this very seriously, study our lessons and try to fly as often as possible and work hard among all the other responsibilities we have in our lives. Maybe I am the lucky one to be with an awesome CFI, who has my utmost respect, and trust. For all the hours we spend in the plane and in ground work, he has never made me feel that the time spent "gets in the way''. And honestly, if that was the case, I would find someone else to learn from. I hope I am not alone.

 

[John Baker]

To quote Wayne: "I didn't say they weren't serious, I said they got in the way. Like on some real nice evening when you'd like to fly somewhere or work on the plane or do something fun and you have committed to go to the airport to fly in circles with somebody. It's hard (or was for me) to find the right balance. That's why I limited my teaching time to FR's, IPC's and special- problem situations."

This is one of the first comments in POA that I find unfortunate, Wayne. Like alot of us 'hobby students' I am sure that we take this very seriously, study our lessons and try to fly as often as possible and work hard among all the other responsibilities we have in our lives. Maybe I am the lucky one to be with an awesome CFI, who has my utmost respect, and trust. For all the hours we spend in the plane and in ground work, he has never made me feel that the time spent "gets in the way''. And honestly, if that was the case, I would find someone else to learn from. I hope I am not alone.

"This is one of the first comments in POA that I find unfortunate"

Speaking as a student who has spent many, many, hours flying the pattern, over, and over, again, due to a very unscrupulous flight school, I'm having trouble finding Wayne's comment unfortunate. I only had to go up a few times a week and do it. I can not imagine having to fly that merry-go-round four or five times a day, five days a week, constantly.

I think what Wayne said was simply the truth, I just can not think that an honest statement could be considered "unfortunate".

John

 

[DutchessFlier]

John:
I see your point, but your issue is with the flight school...unscrupulous is a strong word, and that type of activity is inexcusable. Did you change schools / instructors? Has anything changed for the better?

My opinion is not aimed personally at anyone, the notion that students get in the way of an instructor flying for pleasure seems unfortunate to me...why be an instructor then?

And like I said in the post, perhaps I am very lucky to have as excellent a CFI as I do...which raises this question for you all to consider...is my experience an exception or the rule?

 

[dmccormack]

And like I said in the post, perhaps I am very lucky to have as excellent a CFI as I do...which raises this question for you all to consider...is my experience an exception or the rule?

CFIs are people, and as subject to the Bell Curve as any population.

Ya got studs, and ya got duds.... with most somewhere in between.

Of course there are a few that proudly "fire" a CFI that ever disagrees with them on anything, ever, or accuses a flight school or CFI of cheating them when, in fact, they ain't gettin it.

Now, my personal approach when somebody isn't getting it is to change the scenario -- few people get better after doing the same thing badly a thousand times.

But, not all CFIs are teachers, even if he/she took an FOI test one day and aced it.

 

[wabower]

All those companies are cutting back big-time, many old-timers laid off. Ain't no jobs there now.

Probably the best money anyone can make as a CFI is instructing for one of the big sim-based outfits like RTC, SimCom, or Flight Safety. However, you're going to need a bunch of medium to heavy multiengine jet time to get hired, and that's not something a "new" CFI is likely to have. As stated, in most cases, CFI is the entry-level pilot position where new working pilots gain enough experience to get a better pilot job, and most CFI jobs pay accordingly. Some folks with a lot more experience can get better pay for instructing, but you're going to need thousands of hours and decades of experience to get to where you can charge that kind of money.

 

[wabower]

It was a personal decision about how I wanted to spend my time. I didn't short-change any students, I just didn't want to be out there doing it so I made a conscious decision to specialize in areas of instruction that I did enjoy. It's my time and I'm the one who decides how much of it is for sale and when. You got a problem with that?

To quote Wayne: "I didn't say they weren't serious, I said they got in the way. Like on some real nice evening when you'd like to fly somewhere or work on the plane or do something fun and you have committed to go to the airport to fly in circles with somebody. It's hard (or was for me) to find the right balance. That's why I limited my teaching time to FR's, IPC's and special- problem situations."

This is one of the first comments in POA that I find unfortunate, Wayne. Like alot of us 'hobby students' I am sure that we take this very seriously, study our lessons and try to fly as often as possible and work hard among all the other responsibilities we have in our lives. Maybe I am the lucky one to be with an awesome CFI, who has my utmost respect, and trust. For all the hours we spend in the plane and in ground work, he has never made me feel that the time spent "gets in the way''. And honestly, if that was the case, I would find someone else to learn from. I hope I am not alone.

 

[John Baker]

I quit the school, purchased an old, but nice, Warrior. I hired a private instructor who was hired away from all the wealth I was sending his way, by FedEx. They wanted him to drive their airplanes. He turned me over to a fellow who is 74 and is a very experienced long time aviator and instructor. My check ride is next Monday. I wish I felt as confident as he does about it, I just hope I pass. It's been a very long adventure.

I'm 66, I'm mono visioned, and I honestly believe the flight school I went to was taking me for a ride. The school pushed all the younger students through fairly fast. The older students like myself got to play musical instructor, with each new instructor needing most of your previous instruction demonstrated before they would move you to a new lesson. After the first new lesson, I was given a new instructor. I was having fun, so it took me a while to figure out I was going to get nowhere with that school. I talked to several older pilots who had started at the same school and they had to quit and hire a private instructor to take them to their ticket.

I had nine or so instructors in 24 months. The owner of the school actually called me into his office and told me since it was taking me so long, I would need another instructor and would have to start at the very beginning all over again. The instructor I was working with at that time, quit the school and became my first private instructor at about ten dollars less an hour than the school was charging me.

The school was desperate for cash flow and they figured older guys could afford it, we were their cash cows.

This has all happened in an industry that is crying for new blood and yet they treat new wannabees like money trees. An industry that can not understand why 3/4 of all people who get their tickets, never fly again, or give it up shortly thereafter.

John

 

[DutchessFlier]

John:

You truly describe an experience that is inexcusable.

Wayne:

C'mon man, this isn't personal, you do whatever makes you happy.

 

[dmccormack]

John,

I'm very sorry to hear that. As I mentioned in a previous post, passing an FOI test does not a teacher make. You didn't fit the expected pattern, so they wash-rinse-repeat hoping for a different outcome. It may have been money motivation, but more likely it was less sinsiter than that -- they simply did not have the imagination and experience to try a different way when it didnt' click the first way.

My last student is mid-50s. He couldn't land with both hands and both feet at 5 knots, let alone an airplane.

I read as many articles, posts here, and listened to hangar flying talks for hours.

Instead of endless paterns, we did lots of airwork -- "Forget landings!" I told him, hour after hour.

When it was time to remember landings, he had an excellent feel for the airplane after all that airwork. We flew along the runway at 20 feet AGL, then went back up for power off easy stalls to get the landing attitude burned into his brain.

It took a while, and there's still some learning to do, but he's a certificated Private Pilot and is now starting to work on the IR.

 

[John Baker]

Being mono vision made learning to land particularly hard. My very first attempt I started my flare 150' above the runway. I got to the point where I could get it on the ground and be able to walk away from it, but each landing was pretty much wild luck, I never knew what the outcome would be. I had gone through all of their instructors except a very serious Frenchman. He just did not look like a fun guy to fly with.

Naturally, it was his turn to start me at the beginning. He landed with me once, then on the second time out with him, he had me greasing it in every time. He did something none of the other instructors had bothered doing, he read up on mono vision pilot training.

He taught me to land not by guessing my hight above the runway, he told me to ignore any attempts at judging hight or distance, instead he showed me how to look at the shape of the runway and my relationship to the far end of the runway. When my aircraft was sinking below the far end of the runway, all I had to do was hold the cowling slightly below that end of runway line, perfect landing almost every time. He soloed me three lessons later.

That is when the owner of the school started making snide comments about the Frenchman to me. He even asked me several times if I would like to have an American instructor instead, you know, one that spoke real English.

I spent the next six months flying in circles around the runway, pattern work only. My French instructor signed me off to the practice areas, but the owner refused, he could always seem to come up with one reason or another why I could not leave the pattern.

That is when I started talking to a lot of the older guys like myself who had gone to that school for their initial training. They all recommended that I quit the school and go over to another airport to get my license, they all had to do the same thing.

That's when I bought my Warrior and about a month after that, I quit the school and moved over to the other airport. The Frenchman continued as my instructor on a private basis. He finished up his students at the school and came over to the other airport as a private instructor. He had me doing solo cross country flights in just a few weeks after that.

Then I ran into another road block that forced me to quit instruction for almost a year.

There are many stories about this learning to fly adventure that I am sure will come out on future threads. I've got a book full of them.

John

 

[wabower]

Glad you hung in. Sounds like the good guy won in the end. Just like the movie.

Being mono vision made learning to land particularly hard. My very first attempt I started my flare 150' above the runway. I got to the point where I could get it on the ground and be able to walk away from it, but each landing was pretty much wild luck, I never knew what the outcome would be. I had gone through all of their instructors except a very serious Frenchman. He just did not look like a fun guy to fly with.

Naturally, it was his turn to start me at the beginning. He landed with me once, then on the second time out with him, he had me greasing it in every time. He did something none of the other instructors had bothered doing, he read up on mono vision pilot training.

He taught me to land not by guessing my hight above the runway, he told me to ignore any attempts at judging hight or distance, instead he showed me how to look at the shape of the runway and my relationship to the far end of the runway. When my aircraft was sinking below the far end of the runway, all I had to do was hold the cowling slightly below that end of runway line, perfect landing almost every time. He soloed me three lessons later.

That is when the owner of the school started making snide comments about the Frenchman to me. He even asked me several times if I would like to have an American instructor instead, you know, one that spoke real English.

I spent the next six months flying in circles around the runway, pattern work only. My French instructor signed me off to the practice areas, but the owner refused, he could always seem to come up with one reason or another why I could not leave the pattern.

That is when I started talking to a lot of the older guys like myself who had gone to that school for their initial training. They all recommended that I quit the school and go over to another airport to get my license, they all had to do the same thing.

That's when I bought my Warrior and about a month after that, I quit the school and moved over to the other airport. The Frenchman continued as my instructor on a private basis. He finished up his students at the school and came over to the other airport as a private instructor. He had me doing solo cross country flights in just a few weeks after that.

Then I ran into another road block that forced me to quit instruction for almost a year.

There are many stories about this learning to fly adventure that I am sure will come out on future threads. I've got a book full of them.

John