How to round out.

loch1957

loch1957

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James
Hello I just joined and after searching a while I didn't find the exact topic. I have a question. I'm a new student, well 21 hours so far. I'm comfortable flying around, taking off, even stalls and S turns. The one thing that frustrates me is I constantly over compensate when I round out. In other words I balloon up. I am taking lesson in an ercoupe which I like flying. (rudder pedals added) My instructor is very patient and supportive but I was wondering if a different perspective might help. He tries to explain but perhaps I'm not grasping what he is trying to tell me. How do I stop over reacting?

Oh and Hi folks!!
 
Just keep flying down towards the runway a little longer...looks scary, but it works!
 
Talk with your instructor about what you should be doing with your field of vision and when.
 
Usually ballooning is the result of excessive airspeed. Sometimes it's the result of overcontrolling in pitch. Sometimes it's the result of starting the flare too high. No way to tell which it is without flying with you.
 
loch1957 said:
Hello I just joined and after searching a while I didn't find the exact topic. I have a question. I'm a new student, well 21 hours so far. I'm comfortable flying around, taking off, even stalls and S turns. The one thing that frustrates me is I constantly over compensate when I round out. In other words I balloon up. I am taking lesson in an ercoupe which I like flying. (rudder pedals added) My instructor is very patient and supportive but I was wondering if a different perspective might help. He tries to explain but perhaps I'm not grasping what he is trying to tell me. How do I stop over reacting?

Oh and Hi folks!!
Click to expand...

Hey look, another James! Welcome!

The way I look at it is that you try not to land. Hold the airplane a foot above the runway until it decides it won't fly any longer. I was having a similar problem to you when I learned, but when my instructor phrased it like that, it made a lot more sense to me and things worked themselves out nicely.

Also, doing low passes a few feet above the runway gives you tons more practice in the critical few seconds of the landing flare than shooting touch and goes does. It did wonders for my crosswind technique, so I see no reason it shouldn't help with the normal landing.
 
You are rotating too suddenly. Probably waiting until you're close to the surface before flaring, thus carrying too much speed into ground effect. Just a hair too much pitch change will cause ballooning.

Gently start rounding out when ten feet or so up, while reducing the power, and as the airplane slows and sinks keep raising the nose until the mains touch.

Dan
 
jpower said:
The way I look at it is that you try not to land. Hold the airplane a foot above the runway until it decides it won't fly any longer. I was having a similar problem to you when I learned, but when my instructor phrased it like that, it made a lot more sense to me and things worked themselves out nicely.
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Exactly how I was taught as well, try and keep the main wheels just off the runway. Then when it touches down you know the aircraft is done flying.



-VanDy
 
Are you looking at the end of the runway during the roundout?

Ron L knows his business so check those items but also be aware of where you are looking during the final bit of flying. You probably need to be looking at the far end of the runway. It helps you recognize pitch changes and sense altitude.

I was stubborn and learned to land by looking out to the side. It's harder and takes longer to do it that way but it can be done.
 
Ron Levy said:
Usually ballooning is the result of excessive airspeed. Sometimes it's the result of overcontrolling in pitch. Sometimes it's the result of starting the flare too high. No way to tell which it is without flying with you.
Click to expand...


+1...:yes:
 
Ron Levy said:
Usually ballooning is the result of excessive airspeed. Sometimes it's the result of overcontrolling in pitch. Sometimes it's the result of starting the flare too high. No way to tell which it is without flying with you.
Click to expand...

Yep. Sometimes we do all three. Been there. Keep practicing!
 
loch1957 said:
Hello I just joined and after searching a while I didn't find the exact topic. I have a question. I'm a new student, well 21 hours so far. I'm comfortable flying around, taking off, even stalls and S turns. The one thing that frustrates me is I constantly over compensate when I round out. In other words I balloon up. I am taking lesson in an ercoupe which I like flying. (rudder pedals added) My instructor is very patient and supportive but I was wondering if a different perspective might help. He tries to explain but perhaps I'm not grasping what he is trying to tell me. How do I stop over reacting?

Oh and Hi folks!!
Click to expand...
Although it eventually becomes more smooth overall, it often helps to think about the roundout and the flare as two separate events. The roundout brings you level and, as the airspeed decays the flare begins. This is my FAQ on landing. Maybe you'll find something there that works for you:
I'm having trouble with the flare. Any Advice?
 
I had the same problem as a student pilot. You will eventually develop a feel for it. The real breakthrough for me came after my checkride. I got better during training, good enough to (more or less) satisfy my instructor and actually did fairly well on the checkride. My landings were still inconsistent, though.

I finally learned to slow down. I was getting in a hurry to make the plane flare, wanting to avoid the pending impact with the runway. I finally learned to fly the flare, rather than just pulling back on the yoke and hoping the plane would flare. It made a huge difference. Now when I'm at the end of the runway I'm easing the yoke back to level off, then gently raising the nose to bleed off some airspeed. It was at that point that I used to get too worried about planting the plane on the numbers... now I remind myself there's still half a mile of runway, I can let the airplane fly until it's done flying. I continue to gently raise the nose while it settles toward the ground. About 4-5 feet up the stall warning is getting pretty insistent, which tells me I've got it about slow enough. By the time the mains touch the ground I've got the yoke almost fully back. Amazing how much travel there is, it feels like way too much.

OK, every landing isn't perfect... but I've really stopped letting the plane drop in with a thud. And yes, every once in a while (but rarely now) I'll get a little bit of a balloon effect if I get too eager; that's one reason to keep a hand on the throttle. Add a touch of throttle and just let it settle gently.

Eventually the light bulb comes on and you get a feel for it. In my case it was after I figured out that A.) the main gear was pretty tough and not going to break despite my worst effort, and B.) the nose gear is not for landing, only for taxi. :)
 
VanDy said:
Then when it touches down you know the aircraft is done flying.
Click to expand...

That concept gets a lot of folks into trouble. When the wheels touch, the transfer of weight from the air to the ground begins. The airplane is never done flying until the airflow over the wing stops. There's always some lift there, especially in the ground roll, and those who think the flight's over will often relax at the touchdown and things can come unglued real quick, especially in a crosswind. As a former instructor I had to deal with that far too much, and as a mechanic I often replaced tires flat-spotted by guys who thought all the weight was on them and wanted to stop quick.

Dan
 
loch1957 said:
The one thing that frustrates me is I constantly over compensate when I round out. In other words I balloon up. I am taking lesson in an ercoupe which I like flying. (rudder pedals added) ...I was wondering if a different perspective might help.
Click to expand...
If you find yourself raising your chin instead of tilting your head toward your left ear--a better perspective is EXACTLY what you need. You can't see and react to ballooning quick enough by looking up and over a raised nose toward the far end of the runway. You can get a better perspective by looking along the side of that nose and by including the left edge of the runway up ahead in your field of vision.

Welcome to the board. I'm starting to like it here myself. :)

dtuuri
 
In all of my training, and in all of my flights with CFIs, I've never heard the term "round out."

From the discussion above, it sounds like something a pilot does just before or at the start of the flare. Perhaps that is part of the problem -- the use of a term that implies doing something separate from the flare, instead of merely talking about how to do the flare.
 
I'm going with Ron's comment... Many a screwed up landing starts two miles out with an inability to control airspeed accurately. :)
 
tinerj said:
In all of my training, and in all of my flights with CFIs, I've never heard the term "round out."

From the discussion above, it sounds like something a pilot does just before or at the start of the flare. Perhaps that is part of the problem -- the use of a term that implies doing something separate from the flare, instead of merely talking about how to do the flare.
Click to expand...

Different folks teach different ways. Some don't teach a flare but to "round out" and land.

The round out is to transition from the typical 400 fpm descent on final to a near level flight about a foot above the runway. At that point the pilot adds back pressure to keep the aircraft off the runway until it just won't stay in the air. See, no flare required.

The terms don't matter that much, control airspeed on final, transition from descent attitude & power to landing attitude and very little/no power about a foot off the runway and the landing should be good.
 
I learned in a 172, and I was always good about coming over the numbers at the same speed, but I ballooned several times. Another instructor told me to stare down the runway and try to keep the plane flying without touching down. Eventually it runs out of speed and will settle on the runway.

This worked for me, but as already mentioned, lots of things can cause it. mine was pulling back on the yoke too much during the flare.

lots of great pilots on this board, so just read the threads, and I'm sure something helpful will pop up for you.
 
rbridges said:
I learned in a 172, and I was always good about coming over the numbers at the same speed...
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What speed? Most POHs have you arriving at the runway threshold well above 1.3 Vso. You have a lot of slowing to do from there.
 
denverpilot said:
What speed? Most POHs have you arriving at the runway threshold well above 1.3 Vso. You have a lot of slowing to do from there.
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yabut it's a 172 otherwise known as a flying speedbrake!

I flew an '05 172 last Thursday for an FR. It was a really smooth running and nice handling 172. Very nice change from the 160 hp N's that I flew for pp training.
 
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This may be an oversimplification, but when it is time to break the descent add only enough back pressure to establish level flight....then let aerodynamic drag do its job. I agree with others that you may be too fast...good landings are slow landings.

Bob Gardner
 
bobmrg said:
This may be an oversimplification, but when it is time to break the descent add only enough back pressure to establish level flight....then let aerodynamic drag do its job. I agree with others that you may be too fast...good landings are slow landings.

Bob Gardner
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I think I am the 2 bolded items away from a really good landing. I might pull back just a little too hard too quickly, and I need to remember to pull to idle at the right time. unfortunately wx aint lookin perty for KCLT @ 22zulu this evening.
 
This was one of my initial issues that held me back from solo. I was a little too fast on the approach, and wasn't looking down the runway, but more immediately in front of the airplane. Once I corrected these minor flaws, the landings finally started improve.
 
tinerj said:
In all of my training, and in all of my flights with CFIs, I've never heard the term "round out."

From the discussion above, it sounds like something a pilot does just before or at the start of the flare. Perhaps that is part of the problem -- the use of a term that implies doing something separate from the flare, instead of merely talking about how to do the flare.
Click to expand...

Lots of American CFIs have never spun an airplane, either, so it's not unusual that they don't know everything.

Round-out is a valid term, and refers to the beginning of the pitch-up at fifteen to thirty feet above the surface, with the flare being the finish of it. The round-out is intended to reduce the descent rate and add drag to reduce airspeed. The big mistake is to make no pitch changes until the airplane is really close to the surface, in ground effect, at the approach speed. The result is a fast, flat touchdown or a long float or some porpoising or wheelbarrowing or maybe a visit to the rhubarb patch and a bunch of damage.
From the Canadian Flight Instructor Guide http://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/publications/tp975-menu-5494.htm

Part II, Exercise 18

Advice to Instructors
<snip>
(12) The change of attitude of the aircraft to bring about the required round-out and subsequent hold-off to touchdown must be judged by visual reference to the ground rather than by mechanical movements of the control column. This must be demonstrated sufficiently and consistently by the instructor until the student observes the clues which will enable personal decisions to be made.

Dan
 
tinerj said:
In all of my training, and in all of my flights with CFIs, I've never heard the term "round out."
Click to expand...

The FAA term is roundout, which they use interchangeably with flare. I don't think I've heard anyone use the word roundout in real life either, but it is the term used in the Airplane Flying Handbook and PTS.

Dan Thomas said:
Lots of American CFIs have never spun an airplane, either, so it's not unusual that they don't know everything.
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Really, so you are saying there are "lots" of fraudulent spin endorsements?
 
To simplify everything that has already been said try repeating silently to yourself during the flare "'not yet, not yet, not yet..."

The last thing you want to do at this stage of your training is to over analyze it to the point of nausea. You're just trying to make the sight/mind/motor connections right now and the only cure for it is practice.
 
dmspilot said:
Really, so you are saying there are "lots" of fraudulent spin endorsements?
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I am under the impression that the spin is not required for the certification of an American CFI. Am I mistaken?

In Canada the PPL must have seen a spin and recovery. We taught PPL students the full deal. Commercial candidates must demonstrate a spin entry and recovery, selected from several scenarios by the examiner, not just the power-off-straight-ahead stall and spin.

Dan
 
Dan Thomas said:
That concept gets a lot of folks into trouble. When the wheels touch, the transfer of weight from the air to the ground begins. The airplane is never done flying until the airflow over the wing stops. There's always some lift there, especially in the ground roll, and those who think the flight's over will often relax at the touchdown and things can come unglued real quick, especially in a crosswind. As a former instructor I had to deal with that far too much, and as a mechanic I often replaced tires flat-spotted by guys who thought all the weight was on them and wanted to stop quick.

Dan
Click to expand...

I had a poor choice of words, good correction and explanation. Don't stop flying until you are tied down!


-VanDy
 
The really odd thing is I also sky dive, I have no problem judging the altitude. I flare on a jump as well, at the same altitude as well. I just either round out to much or to fast. Its frustrating but i'll get it.
 
loch1957 said:
The really odd thing is I also sky dive, I have no problem judging the altitude. I flare on a jump as well, at the same altitude as well. I just either round out to much or to fast. Its frustrating but i'll get it.
Click to expand...

It's not so much about judging altitude as it is about judging and achieving the correct attitude at the proper altitude.
 
Dan Thomas said:
I am under the impression that the spin is not required for the certification of an American CFI. Am I mistaken?
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It actually is required in the US -- CFI applicants must receive flight training and achieve instructional proficiency in spins, entries, and recovery procedures, and have a logbook endorsement indicating as such. Additionally, if a CFI applicant fails the checkride due to deficiency of knowledge or skill related to stalls or spins, he or she must demonstrate spins on the retest.

With that said, the intensity and comprehensiveness of spin training that CFI candidates receive varies.

Sorry for the thread creep.
 
It's also about learning to time the pull as the plane slows and sinks. IMO, the "feel" part of landing that is most difficult to learn is timing the pull.

Clark1961 said:
It's not so much about judging altitude as it is about judging and achieving the correct attitude at the proper altitude.
Click to expand...
 
I had the same problem with ballooning at the 25-30 hour mark in my training. I was rounding out to high and using to much control input.
My back up instructor fixed the problem. When it was safe to do so, while taxing one time he "goosed" the power to pitch the nose up so I could see what the nose angle to ground was.
Then during landing practice he made sure as soon as I started to flare, that he had me look at the end of the runway, and relax a little on the controls.
Meaning as soon as you feel the balloon, just relax the back pressure, don't push forward, just relax it. Should be enough to stop the balloon and keep you level, then just bleed the speed off with gentle rear pressure to a nice smooth touch down. Theory was great, took me a while to get it, then I just had to figure out the cross wind thing.................:mad2:
 
DONT FLARE!!

Flaring or rounding out ISNT SOMETHING YOU DO, its a side effect

On final lock in a part of the runway (say the numbers), dont let it move in your windshield!


If it goes down you're high (take some power out), if it's high in your windshield you're low.



When the runway is made (as in you could EASILY glide in) CUT THE POWER

Once you FEEL you are low (say a 4 feet or less depending on your experience and feel for the plane) look way down the center line to where it disappears in the FAR distance.

Now just fly that airplane to the end of the runway, you got NO POWER so you WILL LAND, just try to prevent her from landing as long as you can, try to make the plane glide as far towards the end of the runway as possible.

Once you touch down, KEEP trying to hold her off (keeping the nose up), keep on those rudders.
 
tinerj said:
In all of my training, and in all of my flights with CFIs, I've never heard the term "round out."

Me either. :dunno:

From the discussion above, it sounds like something a pilot does just before or at the start of the flare. Perhaps that is part of the problem -- the use of a term that implies doing something separate from the flare, instead of merely talking about how to do the flare.
Click to expand...

If the aircraft is flapped and trimmed right, it should be about level with the surface already. It's just a matter of power at the end, and a slight back pressure on the yoke when throttle closed. So yeah, I'm new to this round-out before the flair concept too. :confused:


wabower said:
It's also about learning to time the pull as the plane slows and sinks. IMO, the "feel" part of landing that is most difficult to learn is timing the pull.
Click to expand...


And the time to push if it's a wheelie! :rockon:
 
VanDy said:
I had a poor choice of words, good correction and explanation. Don't stop flying until you are tied down!


-VanDy
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Technically your wording was OK. You wrote: "...the aircraft is done flying." and baring a relaunch (aka bounce) it's true that the aircraft has transitioned from flying to rolling on the ground. Of course the pilot's job isn't over yet.
 
Dan Thomas said:
I am under the impression that the spin is not required for the certification of an American CFI. Am I mistaken?
Click to expand...
FAR 61.183(i).

In the 1930s the FAA removed the spin requirement for pilots for the stated reason of a high fatality rate during training. The FAA reintroduced the requirement for CFIs in the big 1997 FAR Part 61 revision.
 
midlifeflyer said:
FAR 61.183(i).

In the 1930s the FAA removed the spin requirement for pilots for the stated reason of a high fatality rate during training. The FAA reintroduced the requirement for CFIs in the big 1997 FAR Part 61 revision.
Click to expand...
I don't remember spin training ever not being required for CFIs. I had to do them in 1967 and have a logbook endorsement before the flight test. Maybe you mean they had to do them on a flight test if they previously failed that area? :confused:

dtuuri
 
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