How to buy a plane - Need advice

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Stryker1112

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Stryker
So Im a VERY low time pilot, 130 hours, who just got their BFR done last month (licensed 1993). Id like to buy a plane and due to family I know what type of plane to buy. My problem is, I am checked out on complex/HP airplanes but I'm not dumb enough to think I know enough. Id like a Cherokee Six, I have never flown one but I need the room. So my question is how do I buy? I cant really fly to a place and go fly one, my experience is too low. And I need advice on avionics as GPS wasn't even around when I last flew. I don't know the difference in autopilots, but again I have just flown steam gauge planes with no AP. But if I buy a plane I want to get my moneys worth and get avionics I can grow into. See my dilemma? I need advice on guys that have been there, done that.

Im in Dallas if it makes a difference
 
Stryker1112 said:
So Im a VERY low time pilot, 130 hours, who just got their BFR done last month (licensed 1993). Id like to buy a plane and due to family I know what type of plane to buy. My problem is, I am checked out on complex/HP airplanes but I'm not dumb enough to think I know enough. Id like a Cherokee Six, I have never flown one but I need the room. So my question is how do I buy? I cant really fly to a place and go fly one, my experience is too low. And I need advice on avionics as GPS wasn't even around when I last flew. I don't know the difference in autopilots, but again I have just flown steam gauge planes with no AP. But if I buy a plane I want to get my moneys worth and get avionics I can grow into. See my dilemma? I need advice on guys that have been there, done that.

Im in Dallas if it makes a difference
Click to expand...

You are lucky that there are several airplane owners on here in the Dallas area that have a pretty wide range of planes. I can't speak for them, but I'm pretty certain a few would take you up so you can see what you do or don't like.

There will be about 20 posts following this one saying "you need plane x because I have plane x, and plane x is the best." The only person that can answer which plane is best for you, is you (and your wife if you have one).
 
Thanks for the insight. Ive thought hard about what I truly NEED, and its a Cherokee Six. I like the insurance rates, I'm low time so I don't have to worry about lowering gear, its got a 1300 useful load for most of what I see, and its not too fast for my skill set. Now I just need to pick the right one
 
there are a number of clubs in the dallas/ft worth/denton area. go fly a variety including the 235 and see what works best. you may find that a club is the way to go for the time being. Plus you'll meet many people who have the experience of buying an airplane. Learn from them. I spent over a year before I found what I was looking for.

Rule #1 Do Not Rush

there are some good books on the topic, and the AOPA website has a number of articles you should read.

Rule #2 Read rule #1.
 
Are your questions about selecting which model? Or is that done and now your asking about the best ways to find a good example of the desired airframe?

One question which might help steer the responses in a helpful direction is how often are your missions at full capacity? For 80-90% of your flying, where are you going and how many are going win you?

What is your purchase and care/feeding budgets?

How soon is this purchase going to happen?

Finally, join some of the DFW gang at www.DFWPilots.com/board and ask your question there.
 
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Your situation sounds similar to mine.

My first flying was in Cherokee 140 & 180 aircraft. I always thought my ultimate plane would be a 300 hp Cherokee six. Gotta love the horsepower!

When ready to buy, I put the glass cockpit at the top of the list.
Went to Van Bortel in Arlington, and am quite satisfied.
 
You will be better off buying a plane with the avionics and features you want rather than buying one and planning on upgrading. That is, unless you WANT a project. Your plane selection sounds reasonable. Start reading Trade a plane and Controller websites. As for where the plane is, try and be flexible. Good ones are not always local. Sometimes you have to rent and fly to look at the plane, then get the owner to deliver (or hire a ferry pilot). Make certain you get an independent and honest compression test and prebuy. Good luck!
 
I've never owned one, but I've read lots of good things about the cherokee 6. Just from my limited ownership, I'd say this--get a plane with as much of the avionics as you want. It will be much cheaper than adding it yourself.

If you plan to pursue an instrument rating, I'd recommend it have at least a 430 garmin preferably with WAAS. GPSS linking it to an autopilot would be awesome. Engine monitor would be another nice thing to have.

What kind of trips are you planning with your family? This could factor into what you may want to have available in your plane.

anyway, after you zero in on a plane, have someone do a thorough inspection of the plane and logs.
 
Most sellers aren't going to just hand you the keys and let you fly. In my experience, you will be right seat on the test flight and may get some stick time in the air. Your insurance company will have some requirements befor you can fly it which will probably require some dual. Even if they don't you would be wise to fly with it with a CFI until you are comfortable. Buying an old plane is going to involve compromise. The most important stuff and the stuff that can bite you is how the plane was cared for and maintained. If a plane has been sitting there is a chance the engine will have a shortened life. On my last prebuy, the plane was cosmetically great and had a great panel, but my shop found $16k in squawks (I ended up passing on the plane). That still might be worth it, but you have to weigh all the pros and cons. It is easy to say "buy a plane with the panel you want" but the truth is it might be better to buy a plane with great maintenance and upkeep and then install the panel you want. The last plane I bought, the guy who did my prebuy missed a bunch of stuff (Cherokee 140) and my first annual was north of $10k and there was a lot more catch up maintenance before and after that. Investing $10k to $20k into a panel could be chump change next to an early engine failure.
 
find a local mentor to help you through the process in person. And assuming you need the room, you have made a great selection of model of plane for an easy first ownership experience.
 
I don't see the issue, frankly. There are a number of on-line options to locate desirable aircraft. CFI's are relatively ubiquitous and can take you aloft in an aircraft of your interest, no doubt you can work out something with the owner. You are in a populous area that should have a number of airframes for you to examine. Even if you have to travel to see one, you likely have access to rental aircraft to get you to where you want to go.

A Cherokee 6 seems like the ideal airframe for someone with a family who has to pack a lot. They certainly carry a load.
 
EdFred said:
You are lucky that there are several airplane owners on here in the Dallas area that have a pretty wide range of planes. I can't speak for them, but I'm pretty certain a few would take you up so you can see what you do or don't like.

There will be about 20 posts following this one saying "you need plane x because I have plane x, and plane x is the best." The only person that can answer which plane is best for you, is you (and your wife if you have one).
Click to expand...

If by "x" you mean "Bonanza", then you are correct.
 
bartmc said:
If by "x" you mean "Bonanza", then you are correct.
Click to expand...


LOL I was waiting for this post. I thought hard about the A36 but right now it may be a bit too much plane for me. Also I want to get my IFR and it appears to me the Six will be a bit more forgiving to me


Thanks for the insight guys.
 
I was in your exact situation 3 months ago..... Here is how I did it.

Decided what your top end budget is. Decided what your minimum equipment needs are. In today's flight needs, I'd say you want a gns430 or better and an autopilot. Either of those missing, pretty much a deal breaker.

Subscribed to barnstormers and global plane search. Immediately looked at each plane the day it was listed. Called the ones that looked interesting.

If you find a plane that you think is " the one", get tons pics from the seller, look for 337's from the FAA, look at the ownership history and get all the logs PDF'ed to you. If the owner is serious, they will get you whatever you need.

Negotiate the offer.

If all looks good, send the plane for a full annual and get the oil sampled. Talk to the Mx and ask them all the questions you need to help decide about it. Corrosion, life of systems, anything that will need R&R soon. Just make sure the prebuy annual is not done by the same shop who works on the plane normally. I doubt any A&P is gonna tell you something is wrong if they have been servicing it normally. That's pretty much dimeing themselves out. Also, if the Mx looks good, I'd also have them do an oil change so when you get the plane, you have a fresh annual and oil change.

If all is good, close the deal. If the plane is not as advertised or needs repair, renegotiate or walk away. It will be hard to walk away, but loosing $1500 now vs. paying $$$$ later may be worth walking away.

I bought my plane sight unseen this way and flew out with my CFI to take delivery. We completed the BFR flying it home from VA to AR. It was rather uncomfortable to rely on others word, but it had zero time and a round trip ticket to VA was almost $1k! Ouch!

Also, if there are any members on here close, you may ask them to go look at it for you. I would have no problem going to look at a plane in AR for someone as an unbiased party. A reputable seller would have no problem taken someone up if they are representing the buyer and footing the gas bill. That's just part of the selling process.


Here are my take-aways:

Be patient and find the right plane, get the books, get pics of every nook and cranny, get it annualed, get a PoA member to go look, seal the deal and enjoy.
 
Stryker1112 said:
LOL I was waiting for this post. I thought hard about the A36 but right now it may be a bit too much plane for me. Also I want to get my IFR and it appears to me the Six will be a bit more forgiving to me


Thanks for the insight guys.
Click to expand...
well...since this tangent has started...the A36 is definitely "easier" to fly than the PA32. Yes you would have swinging gear to insure but if you got your instruction for the instrument rating concurrent with the insurance checkout, it isn't going to cost you any more for instruction. Purchase price will be higher for the A36 but operating cost per mile will be lower. There are plenty of beechlist members in your area who would be glad to give you a tour of their planes. Just something to think about.
 
Unit74 said:
I was in your exact situation 3 months ago..... Here is how I did it.

Decided what your top end budget is. Decided what your minimum equipment needs are. In today's flight needs, I'd say you want a gns430 or better and an autopilot. Either of those missing, pretty much a deal breaker.

Subscribed to barnstormers and global plane search. Immediately looked at each plane the day it was listed. Called the ones that looked interesting.

If you find a plane that you think is " the one", get tons pics from the seller, look for 337's from the FAA, look at the ownership history and get all the logs PDF'ed to you. If the owner is serious, they will get you whatever you need.

Negotiate the offer.

If all looks good, send the plane for a full annual and get the oil sampled. Talk to the Mx and ask them all the questions you need to help decide about it. Corrosion, life of systems, anything that will need R&R soon. Just make sure the prebuy annual is not done by the same shop who works on the plane normally. I doubt any A&P is gonna tell you something is wrong if they have been servicing it normally. That's pretty much dimeing themselves out. Also, if the Mx looks good, I'd also have them do an oil change so when you get the plane, you have a fresh annual and oil change.

If all is good, close the deal. If the plane is not as advertised or needs repair, renegotiate or walk away. It will be hard to walk away, but loosing $1500 now vs. paying $$$$ later may be worth walking away.

I bought my plane sight unseen this way and flew out with my CFI to take delivery. We completed the BFR flying it home from VA to AR. It was rather uncomfortable to rely on others word, but it had zero time and a round trip ticket to VA was almost $1k! Ouch!

Also, if there are any members on here close, you may ask them to go look at it for you. I would have no problem going to look at a plane in AR for someone as an unbiased party. A reputable seller would have no problem taken someone up if they are representing the buyer and footing the gas bill. That's just part of the selling process.


Here are my take-aways:

Be patient and find the right plane, get the books, get pics of every nook and cranny, get it annualed, get a PoA member to go look, seal the deal and enjoy.
Click to expand...

Thanks. Awesome advice
 
I am just finishing up 11 months of being in your situation.

I narrowed down to what I thought I wanted, and then started looking. I ended up changing importance on things a time or two, and almost changed models once, glad I didn't.

I really found that all planes were a compromise between engine time, avionics, exterior/frame and interior. No matter what, on old planes, there is going to be a trade off.

I ended up prioritizing as follows:
Year/ configuration (I wanted the bigger fuselage).
Engine time
Total time
Avionics
Interior
Paint

A plane that is a 9/10 on EVERY one of those categories is 2x what I am paying.

I compromised because of my mission.
No Hangar for next few years = paint not important
Almost all versions had "weird" interior colors patterns, some looked like 1970's travel trailers.
Avionics = I plan to spend more time in uncontrolled! uninhibited areas, so avionics were less important.
Total time = this really evolved into damage history! some had been wrecked 4-6 times, some had hail damage, some had "bizarre" repairs (wrong wings?)
Engine Time = biggest crapshoot! but a run out engine was going to need replaced sometime, and the discount didn't seem to be there from sellers of past TBO engines.

There are some strange sellers, some good people, some dishonest people, some liars, and some genuine honest people. I will say, I was surprised by the "grandpa-looking" old guys trying to sell who are straight-up liars. I ended up finding the Brokers to be much more honest than individuals. Ymmv.
 
The best news is that Cherokee 6's (and all planes with big, 6-cylinder engines) are available at huge discounts, because no one wants to feed them anymore.

You should have an easy time finding a great plane. As others have said, be patient -- your plane is out there, just begging to be bought. You just have to find it!
 
Jay (post above) knows that by experience as he posted his journey to buying his RV-8
 
I just did this with almost your same exact issues. Low time, bought a plane 900 mi away. I used Mike Busch's savvymx pre-buy service www.savvymx.com. I got a great plane I moved from a 182 to the 6/300 I have 25 hours already, you will love it.
 
Cherokee 6 is a very capable airplane and even at your time, shouldn't take more than an hour or two with a CFI experienced in type. If you've flown any PA28s, you will probably feel fairly comfortable with the PA32 in around 5 hrs or so. Insurance might require a little more, but really the biggest thing to get used to is the heavier feel of the nose compared to smaller Pipers. Just pay close attention to fuel management if you get one of the earlier models with 4 separate selectable tanks.
 
JoseCuervo said:
I am just finishing up 11 months of being in your situation.

I narrowed down to what I thought I wanted, and then started looking. I ended up changing importance on things a time or two, and almost changed models once, glad I didn't.

I really found that all planes were a compromise between engine time, avionics, exterior/frame and interior. No matter what, on old planes, there is going to be a trade off.

I ended up prioritizing as follows:
Year/ configuration (I wanted the bigger fuselage).
Engine time
Total time
Avionics
Interior
Paint

A plane that is a 9/10 on EVERY one of those categories is 2x what I am paying.

I compromised because of my mission.
No Hangar for next few years = paint not important
Almost all versions had "weird" interior colors patterns, some looked like 1970's travel trailers.
Avionics = I plan to spend more time in uncontrolled! uninhibited areas, so avionics were less important.
Total time = this really evolved into damage history! some had been wrecked 4-6 times, some had hail damage, some had "bizarre" repairs (wrong wings?)
Engine Time = biggest crapshoot! but a run out engine was going to need replaced sometime, and the discount didn't seem to be there from sellers of past TBO engines.

There are some strange sellers, some good people, some dishonest people, some liars, and some genuine honest people. I will say, I was surprised by the "grandpa-looking" old guys trying to sell who are straight-up liars. I ended up finding the Brokers to be much more honest than individuals. Ymmv.
Click to expand...

A hangar is about much more than paint.
 
Henning said:
No rentals? It makes a big difference to avionics life as well, and your windows.
Click to expand...

I read somewhere (probably PoA) that newer windscreen do not suffer the problems of the older (original equipment) ones.
 
Jaybird180 said:
I read somewhere (probably PoA) that newer windscreen do not suffer the problems of the older (original equipment) ones.
Click to expand...

False. The material is the same, I tried to get a polycarbonate (aka Lexan as a trademark name) windshield and was told 'Can't do it', I'm having trouble understanding....

The most common reason that replacement windows last better than OEM is that an OEM windshield starts with all the fresh plastic, and in the old days vinyl, interiors which leach hydrocarbon vapors into the cockpit atmosphere, especially ramp planes that get above 130° inside. This generally starts to hit the end of life in about 7 years, and then the plastics are pretty much dried out in middle America, 4 seasons, conditions. Brutal sun is bad, if you are in a southern border state of the US, your plane needs shade or it will deteriorate rapidly. You can forstall this though by coating everything that s not fabric with Collenite No 845 Insulator Wax once a month. If you do that, your plastic and vinyl surfaces have an indefinite lifespan. If you do it and keep the plane in a hangar, your grandchildren could be old, flying in your current trim.

I have been given the responsibility for care of multi million dollar vessels with a labor budget. I need the best job possible done as easily as possible. The fact that I spend one tenth the prior cleaning/maint/care supply budget, and 65% is Insulator Wax, we put it on everything and people always go "Ooooo, it glows in here."

I have been doing this over 25 years. This is the best product in the surface care and cleaning market bar none. It makes everything that easy. Luckily I can pick it up here at the local chandlery I can walk to.
 
Stryker1112 said:
LOL I was waiting for this post. I thought hard about the A36 but right now it may be a bit too much plane for me. Also I want to get my IFR and it appears to me the Six will be a bit more forgiving to.
Click to expand...

I just transitioned a 64 hour C150 pilot to his newly acquired A36. It took more than the insurance mandated 25 hours, but he's happily and safely flying it now. And he's working on his IFR ticket in it, too.

The Six is great. Just much slower than the A36 on the same fuel burn. I spent 24 hours in one over spring break with my family on board. It would have been 16 hours or so in the Bo.
 
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Henning said:
False. The material is the same, I tried to get a polycarbonate (aka Lexan as a trademark name) windshield and was told 'Can't do it', I'm having trouble understanding....

The most common reason that replacement windows last better than OEM is that an OEM windshield starts with all the fresh plastic, and in the old days vinyl, interiors which leach hydrocarbon vapors into the cockpit atmosphere, especially ramp planes that get above 130° inside. This generally starts to hit the end of life in about 7 years, and then the plastics are pretty much dried out in middle America, 4 seasons, conditions. Brutal sun is bad, if you are in a southern border state of the US, your plane needs shade or it will deteriorate rapidly. You can forstall this though by coating everything that s not fabric with Collenite No 845 Insulator Wax once a month. If you do that, your plastic and vinyl surfaces have an indefinite lifespan. If you do it and keep the plane in a hangar, your grandchildren could be old, flying in your current trim.

I have been given the responsibility for care of multi million dollar vessels with a labor budget. I need the best job possible done as easily as possible. The fact that I spend one tenth the prior cleaning/maint/care supply budget, and 65% is Insulator Wax, we put it on everything and people always go "Ooooo, it glows in here."

I have been doing this over 25 years. This is the best product in the surface care and cleaning market bar none. It makes everything that easy. Luckily I can pick it up here at the local chandlery I can walk to.
Click to expand...

What's this stuff good for in an automobile?
 
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