How to be a safety pilot?

I recall from other safety pilot discussions a distinction that since the safety pilot is no longer a required crew member when the hood is off (takeoff and landing) the flight doesn't count as an XC for the safety pilot (no point of landing). But Ron's recent post says that has never been stated by flight standards, so maybe that was just forum arguments.
Actually, I did say that Flight Standards said a SIC safety pilot doesn't log XC time. And someone else (Tim?) wrote on another board that his Regional Counsel said that even if acting as PIC, a nonflying safety pilot doesn't log XC time (which I had not heard before).
 
Actually, I did say that Flight Standards said a SIC safety pilot doesn't log XC time. And someone else (Tim?) wrote on another board that his Regional Counsel said that even if acting as PIC, a nonflying safety pilot doesn't log XC time (which I had not heard before).


Nope - what I said/meant was, please, please, don't ask counsel whether a safety pilot acting as PIC but not flying could log X/C time. It seems to me that their logic in denying a safety pilot SIC from logging X/C time would apply to a safety pilot PIC as well. Unless an SIC in two person airplanes doesn't get to log XC time either.

Edit - oh wait... the opinion on SIC safety pilot isn't from counsel? I can see where flight standards is coming from, but I'd like to hear counsel opinion.
 
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Nope - what I said/meant was, please, please, don't ask counsel whether a safety pilot acting as PIC but not flying could log X/C time.
OK, it wasn't you, but someone else did say that, and ask for a Chief Counsel interpretation. Sorry.:(
Edit - oh wait... the opinion on SIC safety pilot isn't from counsel? I can see where flight standards is coming from, but I'd like to hear counsel opinion.
It's almost certainly going to be the same, but you're free to ask.
 
OK, it wasn't you, but someone else did say that, and ask for a Chief Counsel interpretation. Sorry.:(
It's almost certainly going to be the same, but you're free to ask.

Someone else has asked the question, but hasn't gotten a reply yet. And yeah I figure they'll get the same answer.

Back to my other point, if you're SIC on a two-person airplane, do you get to log the X/C time?
 
Back to my other point, if you're SIC on a two-person airplane, do you get to log the X/C time?
Yes, because it's a condition of flight, like night and actual. You get to log the landings and the approaches when you are the one who is doing them. You don't get to log the other person's landings and approaches.
 
That's what I thought. Which is why not getting to log XC while acting as an SIC safety pilot makes no sense. The rules require two pilots in both situations.
 
I was the one who asked the chief counsel. In my letter I also brought up examples (thanks to Ron's post on the red board from last year) of SICs on two-person airplanes. This, I hope, will force the FAA to apply consistent logic. This may also explain why they're taking so long to issue an opinion. They're probably coordinating the answer with flight standards.

My regional counsel has opined that the pilot who logs the landing gets to log the x-c time. If they both log landings then they both get to log x-c time.
 
No. I think they just take a long time to respond to any question. I have two questions submitted about a 10 months ago. Nothing but a note saying expect an answer in about 4 months (which time was passed about 6 months back).
 
14 CFR §61.1(b)(3)
§ 61.1 Applicability and definitions.
(b) For the purpose of this part:

(3) Cross-country time means—

(i) Except as provided in paragraphs (b)(3)(ii) through (b)(3)(vi) of this section, time acquired during flight—
(A) Conducted by a person who holds a pilot certificate;
(B) Conducted in an aircraft;
(C) That includes a landing at a point other than the point of departure; and
(D) That involves the use of dead reckoning, pilotage, electronic navigation aids, radio aids, or other navigation systems to navigate to the landing point.
(ii) For the purpose of meeting the aeronautical experience requirements (except for a rotorcraft category rating), for a private pilot certificate (except for a powered parachute category rating), a commercial pilot certificate, or an instrument rating, or for the purpose of exercising recreational pilot privileges (except in a rotorcraft) under §61.101 (c), time acquired during a flight—
(A) Conducted in an appropriate aircraft;
(B) That includes a point of landing that was at least a straight-line distance of more than 50 nautical miles from the original point of departure; and
(C) That involves the use of dead reckoning, pilotage, electronic navigation aids, radio aids, or other navigation systems to navigate to the landing point.

61.51 does not say anything about logging x-c time. The passage above does not say that that you need to perform the landing itself for it to qualify as x-c time for you, just that the plane needs to land at an airport more than 50nm from your point of departure. The only sticky point is that it says that the flight must be conducted by a person with a pilot certificate. I interpret that as if the safety pilot is acting as PIC, they are therefore conducting the flight, and they can log the x-c time. Also, since the pilot under the hood is the sole manipulator of the controls, they can log PIC time, and therefore they are also conducting the flight and can log x-c time. It does not matter which pilot makes the landing.

I have on several occasions been the sole manipulator of the controls on my friend's Bonanza on x-c flights. He did the takeoff, handed the controls over to me for the flight, and took them back on final and performed the landing. I logged the PIC x-c time for the time I was the sole manipulator of the controls, since I was conducting the flight. Neither of us were under the hood, and to my knowledge, he only logged the time for the takeoff and landing while he was flying. (As a side note, I assume that since he is the one endorsed for the aircraft and was therefore acting as PIC, he'd be perfectly legal to log PIC time for the time that I was the sole manipulator of the controls as well, but that's the topic for a different discussion.)

That story aside, the bottom line is that it appears that it doesn't matter which pilot lands the plane, so long as it lands more than 50nm from the point of departure both the flying pilot and safety pilot would be legal to log it as x-c time. Whether or not a potential employer accepts it is up to that employer.

IANAL, so you be your own judge.
 
PJ is free to create his own personal interpretations of these regs, but the only interpretations that matters comes from the FAA Counsel, and it appears that one Regional Counsel has already said that when the second pilot acting as PIC is required only by 91.109(b), only the pilot making the landing gets to log the XC time. We may disagree with that, and the Chief Counsel may modify it, but it is highly unwise to go contrary to what an RC says.
 
PJ is free to create his own personal interpretations of these regs, but the only interpretations that matters comes from the FAA Counsel, and it appears that one Regional Counsel has already said that when the second pilot acting as PIC is required only by 91.109(b), only the pilot making the landing gets to log the XC time. We may disagree with that, and the Chief Counsel may modify it, but it is highly unwise to go contrary to what an RC says.

Sorry PJ, Gotta go with Ron on this one - And I would do so even absent any counsel opinion (unless it contradicted this position, which it does not).

14 CFR 61.1(3)(i) defines Cross Country as requiring, among other things:

(C) That includes a landing at a point other than the point of departure; and

Note a couple of things: First, the "and" which means that all of the criteria must be satisfied for it to count as cross country. Second, that includes a *landing*. If you don't have a landing in your logbook on that flight, you really don't have a leg to stand on when someone questions your logbook. :no:
 
That's perfectly fine, and to be honest, I did skim over the part where a poster said that a regional counsel already said the opposite, so I see Ron's point. We'll have to wait and see what the Chief Counsel says, as the wording is ambiguous and does not specify that the pilot logging the time must actually perform the landing, just that a landing must be made. As I think it was either Ron or Tim said in a different thread, "If it isn't specifically prohibited by the FAR's, it's allowed." I'm perfectly willing to alter/retract my opinion once the Chief Counsel's response comes.
 
I've got a couple of hours doing the safety pilot thing. The first time I did it, the guy flying under the hood wanted me to pay half the rental because I was going to log the time. I agreed to that, but I won't do that again. The second time the other guy paid for the whole thing, but I won't do that again either. It seemed to me that I was just trying to put some time in the log book, and I didn't get much out of it. I did learn a little about flying IFR, but not that much. Mostly it was boring. I'm not going for any other ratings, so I don't need the lines filled up in my log book.
 
I've got a couple of hours doing the safety pilot thing. The first time I did it, the guy flying under the hood wanted me to pay half the rental because I was going to log the time. I agreed to that, but I won't do that again. The second time the other guy paid for the whole thing, but I won't do that again either. It seemed to me that I was just trying to put some time in the log book, and I didn't get much out of it. I did learn a little about flying IFR, but not that much. Mostly it was boring. I'm not going for any other ratings, so I don't need the lines filled up in my log book.

My experience was just the opposite. I had my IFR and was working on the Comm/CFI when I started being SP for a PP with lots of hours but no IR.

I learned alot about watching for mistakes, coaxing back on course, and basically how to pay attention and correct without being overbearing or annoying.
 
For Max, yeah, you don't get a lot out of it, but the pilot flying does, and in that sense, you're helping a buddy.

For Dan, I'd say that unless specifically agreed by the crew before flight, "watching for mistakes, coaxing back on course, and basically how to pay attention and correct without being overbearing or annoying" is beyond the normal duties of a SIC safety pilot, whose primary and only legal responsibility is to look out for other airplanes, and for whom anything distracting from that task should be considered less than a priority. Further, in many (if not most) cases of SIC safety pilots, the safety pilot is neither qualified nor able to perform those other functions, and attempting to do so under those circumstances can spoil everybody's fun.
 
For Max, yeah, you don't get a lot out of it, but the pilot flying does, and in that sense, you're helping a buddy.

For Dan, I'd say that unless specifically agreed by the crew before flight, "watching for mistakes, coaxing back on course, and basically how to pay attention and correct without being overbearing or annoying" is beyond the normal duties of a SIC safety pilot, whose primary and only legal responsibility is to look out for other airplanes, and for whom anything distracting from that task should be considered less than a priority. Further, in many (if not most) cases of SIC safety pilots, the safety pilot is neither qualified nor able to perform those other functions, and attempting to do so under those circumstances can spoil everybody's fun.

Of course that was the agreement -- this pilot was working on his IR and asked for help.

I was not a CFI at the time and we both knew it, but he appreciated the guidance.

There is no prohibition against such assistance.
 
Of course that was the agreement -- this pilot was working on his IR and asked for help.

I was not a CFI at the time and we both knew it, but he appreciated the guidance.

There is no prohibition against such assistance.

Nope - as long as you do the primary job (looking for traffic) first. I do similar things with a local IR pilot. He flies, I look for traffic, and then answer any questions he has. I also make encouraging noises (he's a pretty good pilot) from time to time, and I keep a GPS track so he can see how the track worked out.

I highly recommend the GPS track recording. You'll be amazed how tight your tracks are, even when you feel like you were "all over the place". Precision counts, of course, especially during the final segment, but I found it reassuring to see that my holds and PTs actually looked pretty good.
 
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