How much time before twins?

Morne

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Morne
No, I am not about to rush out and start my multi-engine training. I want to get my instrument rating first and build up plenty of time in my 182.

But the question is, how much time? I suppose there are some milestones that insurance companies look for, right? Or will all that single-engine, high-performance time be meaningless when I start looking into twins?

Chronologically, I have about 5 years before I can even think of affording to feed a twin (that's when the house will be paid off). If I fly 120-ish hours a year (like in 2011) then that'll be 740 hours. Is that enough?

I know we have some piston twin lovers here. What concerns me are some of the local instructors who have nothing but contempt for twins. They can't all be entirely wrong, right?
 
From what I've seen and heard when looking into twins, insurance is heavily weighted toward time-in-type. IR, and in some cases Comm, always help.
 
More to the point what is you goal for a twin? If it's to give you a spare engine then be sure to make sure that whatever you want to get has single engine performance that will take you above problems in the area you are likely to fly in.
 
From what I've seen and heard when looking into twins, insurance is heavily weighted toward time-in-type. IR, and in some cases Comm, always help.

Negotiations with the underwriter can help to, but I wouldn't sweat total time too much, the instrument rating and a few hundred hours is what will really validate you toward an insurance company.Moreover get as much HP/complex as you can.
 
I bought my Aztec with 225 total time, no multi rating. I had my private and instrument single, with about 80 hours of complex. The first year insurance was pretty high, but it went down about 30-40% by the second year (of course, by then I had a couple hundred hours in type). Having 700 hours or so by the time you are looking at a twin should be no problem. You probably will want to start out with one of the standard starter twins: Aztec, 310, or Baron all work well. If you want to step right into something cabin class and/or pressurized, it'll be more difficult, but probably still not impossible. The harder part may be to find an instructor who has significant enough twin time to actually not only be able to meet your insurance company's requirements, but be competent enough in OEI (one-engine inoperative) situations to teach you properly.

The people who have contempt for twins I find also have no experience with them, and thus really have no business saying any of what they do (edit: This comment isn't directed at anyone on this forum). All of the "The second engine only takes you to the scene of the crash" folks I've met are people who may not even have their multi rating or, if they do, are flying around in a Seminole or some other airplane with single engine performance that is at best pitiful. They also don't have the proficiency to likely have a successful landing in case of an engine out.

That said, twins do require an increased level of proficiency, simply because you need to be ready to handle an engine-out situation when it does occur. I recommend that people who are new to twins avoid singles entirely during their initial transition, and even after that, probably want to keep the majority of their flying in twins to maintain proficiency. It is also important to understand what the limitations are for your aircraft. Don't take off on a hot day with a full load and expect to be able to maintain a high altitude if an engine fails (naturally aspirated).

As I recall, you live in Ohio and probably keep your flying to east of the Rockies. Given that, it's pretty easy to get reasonable performance with a naturally aspirated twin that will give you good single-engine performance while maintaining IFR altitudes. If you plan to fly west of Denver, it gets significantly more difficult. An Aztec, 310, or Baron, would all work just fine. Keep in mind: Every time a pilot Vmc rolls after an engine out, there's an NTSB report. Every time a pilot lands safely after an engine out, there is no report. You never hear about the people who didn't crash because they had a spare engine.

To me, the benefits of the twin extend beyond the second engine. It also comes down to the second alternator, second vacuum pump, greater stability, better performance in dealing with weather, typically greater cargo capacity. Many twins can be had with de-ice equipment (which few singles have, and even if they do they don't have the performance to deal with ice particularly well), and it's easier to find them with radar.

For me, the added capabilities and options are very much worth it. Your mission may be different, though, so that is also worth consideration.
 
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From my experience getting insurance quotes, I got my ME when I had about 100 TT. I could rent and get ME renters coverage from Avemco, but they woudn't even give me coverage at all to own an twin (even trainer type).

Seems about 250 TT and 25 ME time will get your foot in the door, but coverage can be expensive. Once you get 100 hrs ME, it drops considerably.

SE HP time isn't bad, but in my experience with insurance quotes, the HP is worth a whole lot less than retractable time and actual ME time.
 
Not of particular importance but, I think some may be useing "type" when they mean class or even perhaps "make and model". For example a Cessna 310 is in the class of multi engine piston. The make and model is Cessna 310. A KA 90 is in the class of twin turbine and the make and model is Beechcraft King Air 90. None of this has anything to do with type.
Now for insurance: They like to see some time in class in other words for the OP they will like to see some multi engine piston time. They may also want some time in make and model.
Another example: When I started flying the Cheyenne IIIA I had zero time in make and model. I had about 4500 hours multi and about 75 hours turbine. Insurance required me to take an insurance approved initial training in a sim for make and model. Many times they will require 25 hours PIC in make and model. They did not for me but, I chose to fly with an experienced turbine pilot for 25 hours anyway.
Type is for turbo jet or any aircraft over 12,500 pounds. Not a big deal, just a little clarification.
 
Not of particular importance but, I think some may be useing "type" when they mean class or even perhaps "make and model". For example a Cessna 310 is in the class of multi engine piston. The make and model is Cessna 310. A KA 90 is in the class of twin turbine and the make and model is Beechcraft King Air 90. None of this has anything to do with type.

Correct, good clarification. :)

Now for insurance: They like to see some time in class in other words for the OP they will like to see some multi engine piston time. They may also want some time in make and model.
Assuming the OP would be starting with a typical entry-level twin, my experience is that the insurance will require probably 25-50 hours of dual in the aircraft, even with low multi hours.

When I went to the 310 (with about 500-600 hours in the Aztec), they just wanted me to have 10 hours in the 310. They didn't care if it was with an instructor or not, but 10 hours prior to the policy covering me. So, I flew it with the previous owner on trips he was taking anyway for 10 hours. I was thrilled to do this anyway, as the man had owned it for 25 years and 3000 hours of flying time.

Another example: When I started flying the Cheyenne IIIA I had zero time in make and model. I had about 4500 hours multi and about 75 hours turbine. Insurance required me to take an insurance approved initial training in a sim for make and model. Many times they will require 25 hours PIC in make and model. They did not for me but, I chose to fly with an experienced turbine pilot for 25 hours anyway.
When I was looking at insurance for a 421 a few years back (its big hitters for insurance are pressurization and cabin class), they told me it'd be a 50 hours of dual requirement and going to a simulator school for initial training. I was also told to expect a minimum of 1000 hours total time before I could expect to get insured in a twin-engine turboprop at all (Cheyenne, King Air, etc.), and that was assuming I continued my trend of building obscene amounts of multi time.

When I started flying the Navajo (with over 1200 TT and about 2/3 of it MEL), they simply required 25 hours of PIC time.

As an aside, anytime I go to a new aircraft type I like to read the POH cover-to-cover, and then spend about 30 minutes sitting in the pilot's seat to familiarize myself with the aircraft and the cabin. I find that this process allows me to make better use of the transition training, and pick up the aircraft faster. I also learn how to use the autopilot, but keep autopilot use to a minimum over the first 50 hours to get to know it. In turbine aircraft this dynamic changes a bit, but I still do most of my flying in the Navajo, 310, and Aztec by hand.
 
No, I am not about to rush out and start my multi-engine training. I want to get my instrument rating first and build up plenty of time in my 182.

But the question is, how much time? I suppose there are some milestones that insurance companies look for, right? Or will all that single-engine, high-performance time be meaningless when I start looking into twins?

Chronologically, I have about 5 years before I can even think of affording to feed a twin (that's when the house will be paid off). If I fly 120-ish hours a year (like in 2011) then that'll be 740 hours. Is that enough?

I know we have some piston twin lovers here. What concerns me are some of the local instructors who have nothing but contempt for twins. They can't all be entirely wrong, right?

Do you need a twin or is it just something you want to do? I have no interest in owning a twin.
 
My observation is that the insurers are more concerned about retractable time than anything else, probably because a gear-up landing in a twin costs them twice as much as in a single. 100 hours of retractable time seems to be the criterion. After that, as little as 25 in type, or 50 multi with 5 in type, seems to be the norm for light twins.
 
The problem that twin pilots fail to grasp is that the stakes are much higher if they screw up, that the training is superficial and simulated to prevent everyone aboard from being killed if as would happen in real life, and that they only get one kiss at the pig.
 
Actually Ted, you mean anytime I go to a new make and model.:D
Ron, I think you will find they are looking for time in class, they will want to see some multi time. If your time in class is very low then they will most of the time want to raise the time required in make and model. They will look at TT which it seems that 1000 hours holds some importance, IR is assumed, then time in class and finally time in make and model. Depending on the complexity of the aircraft they may require initial sim training and even recurrent sim training which is the case for most turbine aircraft.
 
No, I am not about to rush out and start my multi-engine training. I want to get my instrument rating first and build up plenty of time in my 182.

But the question is, how much time? I suppose there are some milestones that insurance companies look for, right? Or will all that single-engine, high-performance time be meaningless when I start looking into twins?

Chronologically, I have about 5 years before I can even think of affording to feed a twin (that's when the house will be paid off). If I fly 120-ish hours a year (like in 2011) then that'll be 740 hours. Is that enough?

I know we have some piston twin lovers here. What concerns me are some of the local instructors who have nothing but contempt for twins. They can't all be entirely wrong, right?

Will you be able to fly a twin often enough to stay proficient? Not simply current, but proficient in engine-out recognition and reaction? If not, why spend the money? There are some excellent singles on the market today that out-perform many twins.

These are a few of the reasons a pilot might opt for twin training:

Airline wannabee
Spouse won't fly in a single
Company's insurer insists on two engines
Company policy requires two engines

I certainly have no contempt for twins...I wouldn't be where I am today had I stuck to singles...but when I was flying (and examining) in twins I was flying one every day and getting Part 135 checkrides on a regular basis.

Bob Gardner
 
Bob, might want to add one more. "Pilot won't fly in a single". That would be true for me.
 
The problem that twin pilots fail to grasp is that the stakes are much higher if they screw up,

It's probably about the same. In a single if you screw up, you die. In a twin if you screw up, you die. If you're lucky in either case, you might only get injured.

In a single your decision is made for you when the engine quits. In a twin you have more options.

that the training is superficial and simulated to prevent everyone aboard from being killed if as would happen in real life, and that they only get one kiss at the pig.

The same is true in a single. How often is the engine actually going to quit on you right abeam the numbers, in a perfect location to land the plane? And then how often do PICs in singles actually maintain that proficiency? I've proven to pilots that they don't even know how to make it back to the field abeam the numbers and perfectly set up (by them consistently falling short of the runway) and they believe they'd do fine in a real-life situation.

When you're in the middle third of the country where land is flat and farms are plentiful, that's not necessarily a terrible option. Out here, losing one and going down in a lot of the hilly, forrested areas would be a very unpleasant day.

Actually Ted, you mean anytime I go to a new make and model.:D

Yeah, that. ;)

Bob, might want to add one more. "Pilot won't fly in a single". That would be true for me.

Even I, as the official PoA twin snob, will fly in a single. Just not often.
 
Ya, I agree Ted, not often. It has been about 20 years since I have flown a single, does that qualify for not often?
 
Ron, I think you will find they are looking for time in class, they will want to see some multi time. If your time in class is very low then they will most of the time want to raise the time required in make and model.
As I said, with light twins, they're usually happy with either 25 in type, or 50 multi with 5 in type, as long as you have sufficient retractable time (100 or more) to ease their worries about buying two engines and two props after a gear-up landing.

They will look at TT which it seems that 1000 hours holds some importance,
They seem to write a lot of light twin policies with far less than that.

Depending on the complexity of the aircraft they may require initial sim training and even recurrent sim training which is the case for most turbine aircraft.
Agreed at that level, but not for the entry-level light piston twins about which we're talking.
 
This happened a few days ago in Manila. The airplane is a Beech Queen Air that declared an emergency and was returning to the airport.

 
Yeah, but as Ted said he got to decide where to crash straight in.

This happened a few days ago in Manila. The airplane is a Beech Queen Air that declared an emergency and was returning to the airport.

 
Ron, as I pointed out earlier there is no "in type". The OP is talking light piston twins. For enough money you can get insurance in most anything. I did not mean to imply that the OP could not get insurance I just assumed he wanted to know what he needed to get the best rates. For a light twin, C310, Senaca, Aztec or similar what the insurance will want to see is first TT. They will be looking for at least 1000. Time in class (multi engine) they would like to see 200. In the OP case that is not going to happen because he is starting out. All of us at one time had no multi time. It is this lack of time in class that most likely will require him additional time in "make and model". If he applys for insurance with 1000 TT, IR, and a fresh multi I suspect he may be required to have at least 25 hours in make and model, could even be 50. They may even want him to go to an approved school. It will depend on the underwriter and the mood he is in. Regardless the first year will be tough. Converesly if the OP happen to have 1500 TT and 200 in class (multi) they may only require a check out by a MEI.
So back to the OP's original question. Is 740 TT, IR and fresh multi enough? From the insurance stand point it will be expensive the first year. From the FAA stand point, sure. From the OP's stand point, will he be ready. I don't have a clue because I do not know him. Is there anything he can do to help himself, not much. Complex, high performance time will help a little but not much. Morne, everybody on this board who fly multi engine aircraft has gone through this one time or another. Everytime you move up a class you face the insurance dilemma again. If later you move to aircraft that requires type ratings, you face it again. I am sure you will do well.
 
Ron, as I pointed out earlier there is no "in type". The OP is talking light piston twins.
OK, I guess I should have said "make/model" rather than "type." I assumed folks would understand that.

For enough money you can get insurance in most anything. I did not mean to imply that the OP could not get insurance I just assumed he wanted to know what he needed to get the best rates. For a light twin, C310, Senaca, Aztec or similar what the insurance will want to see is first TT. They will be looking for at least 1000.
You can get insurance in those types (sorry, "makes/models") with far less than that with enough total multi/time in type.

Time in class (multi engine) they would like to see 200.
Again, insurance is readily available in light twins at reasonable rates with far less than 200 hours of multi time as long as you have sufficient time in type, say, 5-25 hours balanced against total multi time. Anyone with 700 TT and 100 retractable can get reasonable insurance in a light twin with only 25 hours of multi time all in that type and an IR.

So back to the OP's original question. Is 740 TT, IR and fresh multi enough?
It is, and reasonably priced, if the OP has 100 retractable and gets 25 hours dual in that type as part of the multi rating and other training. Of course, it won't be as good as someone with 1000 TT and 200 multi, but it will still be affordable for anyone who can afford to own and operate a light twin.
 
How much time before twins?

9 months. It's the same as for singletons.
 
Ron I assume when you say type you mean make and model. I believe I said with no time in make and model he would need 25-50 hours in make and model. I said 25-50 and you are saying 25. Where we disagree is on the term reasonable rates. Maybe somebody in the insurance game will make a comment.
 
I've worked on several acquisition/training/insurance cases during the past few years. The first question that must be asked about experience and credential requirements is "when?"

In 2007 a friend with significant Turbo-Bonanaza retrac time upgraded to a C-340. Insurance company required ~60 hours of (combined) in-plane dual, sim and solo prior to carrying passengers. Last year another friend with roughly equivalent credentials made a similar move and found that insurance requirements and premiums had plummeted. Total required training time was ~27 hours.

Insurance companies readily admit that their rates, terms, conditions and training requirements are highly subject to market conditions.

Ron I assume when you say type you mean make and model. I believe I said with no time in make and model he would need 25-50 hours in make and model. I said 25-50 and you are saying 25. Where we disagree is on the term reasonable rates. Maybe somebody in the insurance game will make a comment.
 
If you like your 182 but want a second motor just get a Skymaster...it's basically a twin 182. I've flown a 182 for 31+ years but recently got a P337 and love it. Insurance requirements were initial training at RTC, 5 hours dual and 5 hours solo before carrying pax. (yours may be higher since I have some military time). It may not be walk down the aisle cabin class or the sexiest thing on the ramp (it will get noticed though) but the flying qualities and forgiveness in engine out situations make it a very nice twin for a newbie twin guy (BTW the prices on these are great right now...I would go with a Riley Skyrocket) IMHO.
 
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If you like your 182 but want a second motor just get a Skymaster...it's basically a twin 182. I've flown a 182 for 31+ years but recently got a P337 and love it. Insurance requirements were initial training at RTC, 5 hours dual and 5 hours solo before carrying pax. (yours may be higher since I have some military time). It may not be walk down the aisle cabin class or the sexiest thing on the ramp (it will get noticed though) but the flying qualities and forgiveness in engine out situations make it a very nice twin for a newbie twin guy (BTW the prices on these are great right now...I would go with a Riley Skyrocket) IMHO.

Were you at KBNA by any chance last sunday. A 337 was beside me that looked a lot like yours
 
Yeah, but as Ted said he got to decide where to crash straight in.

That looks to me like he didn't decide much of anything.

Ron, as I pointed out earlier there is no "in type". The OP is talking light piston twins. For enough money you can get insurance in most anything. I did not mean to imply that the OP could not get insurance I just assumed he wanted to know what he needed to get the best rates. For a light twin, C310, Senaca, Aztec or similar what the insurance will want to see is first TT. They will be looking for at least 1000. Time in class (multi engine) they would like to see 200. In the OP case that is not going to happen because he is starting out.

I've found that once I got 500 TT and 200 ME, my insurance rate didn't decrease too much once I passed 1000 TT and about 700 ME, all in the same type. It went down <10% at that milestone. The big one was just getting a year and a couple hundred hours under my belt.
 
If you like your 182 but want a second motor just get a Skymaster...it's basically a twin 182. I've flown a 182 for 31+ years but recently got a P337 and love it. Insurance requirements were initial training at RTC, 5 hours dual and 5 hours solo before carrying pax. (yours may be higher since I have some military time). It may not be walk down the aisle cabin class or the sexiest thing on the ramp (it will get noticed though) but the flying qualities and forgiveness in engine out situations make it a very nice twin for a newbie twin guy (BTW the prices on these are great right now...I would go with a Riley Skyrocket) IMHO.

You aren't helping my lust for a 337:mad2:
 
Based on all this insurance talk that $200/hr seminole they have for rent seems like a bargain, especially with no minimums other than a checkout and of course ME rating.
 
Ted, I do not disagree with you. I suspect the 200 ME was worth more than the 500 TT. You too say once past the 1000 hour mark with several hours in the multi engine your insurance did not go down much. That is exactly what I said that is seems like the 1000 hour mark is what they want as a minimum or you get hit pretty hard.
I was trying to answer Morne and his concerns on whether he would be ready at 700 hours to move to a twin. If I understood him correctly he would have 700 TT (not PIC) IR, and a fresh ME rating which would be the same as zero in that class. As far as his abilities I do not have a clue. 700 TT is not a lot of hours and I would respectfully suggest not enough to really understand what he does not know. Rather than make a judgement on his abilities I was just reminding him that his biggest obstacle would be insurance. I still believe that. Not impossible just tough like I imagine it was for all of us. Also we may have a different take on what is reasonable. A very good friend of mine with 500 TT, IR and a few hundred in a high performance complex bought a light six place twin. Before he bought it I told him he might want to check on insurance. He did and was happy with the quote and conditions. He had to of course get his ME and have a total of 50 hours make and model to fly solo. I later found out what he paid for insurance and I almost passed out. He has a hull value of under $100K and I think $750K liability but might be as high as $1 M. I fly a $2M plane with 9 seats and $5M in liability. His insurance was about 50% of what ours cost. I am not going to quote actual numbers since some on this board know me. That would have gagged me to death. Others may look at that as being reasonable. Yes I know turbine aircraft are cheaper to insure but, before this plane we had a cabin class recip. My point, IMHO insurance is staggering in light twins for low time pilots. I also wanted Morne to realize that there is a reason the insurance is so high. I hope Morne was able to get something useful out of all of this.
 
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Ronnie, I think we're saying the same thing. :)

As far as his abilities I do not have a clue. 700 TT is not a lot of hours and I would respectfully suggest not enough to really understand what he does not know.

I'd agree overall on that. That said, he won't know what he doesn't know be it in a single or twin. Having started twins at 225 TT with <100 complex when I did, I can honestly say I don't think that an extra 500 hours of complex would have helped make the transition to twins any easier. If anything, my low SEL time I think helps me in twins - it's all I know.

As for not knowing what I didn't know... yes, that about bit me a few times. But, I'm not convinced it wouldn't have about bit me were I flying singles.
 
If anything, my low SEL time I think helps me in twins - it's all I know.

Depends on which single and which twin. FIKI T-210 time can be an excellent background for a deiced turbo-twin
As for not knowing what I didn't know... yes, that about bit me a few times. But, I'm not convinced it wouldn't have about bit me were I flying singles.

For most pilots the amount that can get bit is the amount they leave hanging out.
 
Depends on which single and which twin. FIKI T-210 time can be an excellent background for a deiced turbo-twin

I could see that. Although given the failures that I've had in the twins I fly, the T-210 would've put me in a significantly worse situation each time. I'm happier with the redundancy I've had in those cases.
 
Two sides to every story. My partner might have agreed with you until Jan 31, 1987 until whatever redundancy he thought he had turned out to be an illusion. His orphaned kids might wish he had stayed with the single.



I could see that. Although given the failures that I've had in the twins I fly, the T-210 would've put me in a significantly worse situation each time. I'm happier with the redundancy I've had in those cases.
 
Two sides to every story. My partner might have agreed with you until Jan 31, 1987 until whatever redundancy he thought he had turned out to be an illusion. His orphaned kids might wish he had stayed with the single.

And I might not be here today if I'd been flying singles a few of those times, and have several friends in similar situations.

As you said, two sides to every story.
 
Really getting into thread drift here. Again we are saying the same thing Ted. My comment earlier was there was not much the OP could do to help himself with the problem of low hours and moving to a twin. One poster thought retract time would make a difference. The insurance company is a pretty good indication of risk. Remember they are betting you don't screw up and you are betting you will. This is the nature of insurance. Their rates are based on risk. They are real good at determining risk, or they go out of business.
Your post agrees with my oppinion that single engine time of any kind is not going to make a lot of difference. If you are talking about a 3000 hour pilot with a couple hundred hours in actual then the insurance company will give some credit for that. The difference in 300 hours and 700 hours not so much.
In my oppinion if you put the average 500 hour pilot in a light twin and one of the engines goes south just as you reach for the gear even in VFR, chances are high he is going to die. Now make that a launch into 300 and 1 and almost for certain he will die. I know that is a harsh statement. I did not know this untill my first sim training. Me, you and most everyone with a ME rating got it the same way. In all of our training we always knew what to expect. You know the drill, 2000 AGL, climb power at Vy and you are going to get an engine pulled then go and shoot the approach. The first time it happens and you are not expecting it, well does "deer in the headlights" mean anything to you. A good sim instructor will catch you not expecting it. Then and only then will you know how good you are. It will get you down off your high horse pretty quick. And even with the best of sim instructors in the back of your mind you know he may pull an engine at any moment. I am fortunate that I fly an aircraft with exceptional SE performance. Standard day at gross, 1500 feet density altitude and once cleaned up will climb at least 700 FPM through 10,000 feet. However, if you don't catch that the auto feather has failed, well let's just say it ain't pretty. You can bet you sweet rear end that now when I advance the throttles and the "auto feather armed" light don't come on I WILL know it.
I guess what I have hinting at in this thread is any pilot that is moving up to high performance, complex, ME aircraft PLEASE get regular sim training. Even if it don't make you a better pilot (it will) you will at least know what you and/or your plane can't do. I promise I am putting the soap box away for the night.
 
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