How much more for a complete plane.

[stingray]

One of the people that I work with has several planes in stages. He has a 56 Cessna 180 I would call a project. He would rather sell it as a complete project (Not painted or any instraments) than complete with a basic instrument package and paint completely assembled. He wants $50,000.00 for it as a complete project. I would rather assemble it, paint it, and sell it for $70,000.00. It would cost far more than $20,000.00 to assemble and paint it at a regular shop so the end cost would be less.

Just for fun would you pay $70,000.00 for a completed plane over $50,000.00 for a project that was complete just needing assembly instruments and paint not to mention an annual? You are not an A&P just a regular pilot wanting a bigger than 172 type plane.

Dan

 

[wabower]

I flew a 180 to the paint shop last week for a friend. Simple paint job is $12k.

One of the people that I work with has several planes in stages. He has a 56 Cessna 180 I would call a project. He would rather sell it as a complete project (Not painted or any instraments) than complete with a basic instrument package and paint completely assembled. He wants $50,000.00 for it as a complete project. I would rather assemble it, paint it, and sell it for $70,000.00. It would cost far more than $20,000.00 to assemble and paint it at a regular shop so the end cost would be less.

Just for fun would you pay $70,000.00 for a completed plane over $50,000.00 for a project that was complete just needing assembly instruments and paint not to mention an annual? You are not an A&P just a regular pilot wanting a bigger than 172 type plane.

Dan

 

[TangoWhiskey]

The project includes the engine and other accessories (other than instruments) that you intend to use in the final assembled plane?

 

[ntbjounin]

"simple paint job?" is there such a thing in aviation?

i recall a thread about how difficult W&B is for a new paint job etc... so, doesnt sound simple. so much for my citing that though...

 

[wabower]

As verbally defined by this paint shop owner, one base color, two trim colors, with relatively conventional design of stripes and swooshes.

"simple paint job?" is there such a thing in aviation?

i recall a thread about how difficult W&B is for a new paint job etc... so, doesnt sound simple. so much for my citing that though...

 

[stingray]

The project includes the engine and other accessories (other than instruments) that you intend to use in the final assembled plane?

Yes everything to have a flying plane other than instruments.

His thinking is "They wouldn't like what I put in anyway". My thinking is Garmin SL40, Transponder, Sixpack. All new or rebuilt. Anything other than that and they can add as will. The plane would have basic VFR and very well at that.

Dan

 

[stingray]

I flew a 180 to the paint shop last week for a friend. Simple paint job is $12k.

My point exactly.

Dan

 

[stingray]

"simple paint job?" is there such a thing in aviation?

i recall a thread about how difficult W&B is for a new paint job etc... so, doesnt sound simple. so much for my citing that though...

W&B for a new paint job takes me two hrs at most.

Dan

 

[Greg Bockelman]

I think 50 is high for a project. I think 70 may be high for that year basic 180. But I haven't priced 180s lately.

 

[Greg Bockelman]

"simple paint job?" is there such a thing in aviation?

i recall a thread about how difficult W&B is for a new paint job etc... so, doesnt sound simple. so much for my citing that though...

There's nothing difficult about a weight and balance. Three sets of scales and a little math.

Balancing the control surfaces, if that is necessary may present a bit of a challenge, but even so...

 

[wabower]

A nice '56 will bring 70 or more, depending on all the valuation stuff you would expect to come into play. I think you're right about 50 being too high, no way to do it all for 20.

I think 50 is high for a project. I think 70 may be high for that year basic 180. But I haven't priced 180s lately.

 

[wabower]

I've been watching a local shop weigh a variety of control surfaces lately. The different techniques and tools/jigs specified by the manufacturers are more complex than I would have expected.

There's nothing difficult about a weight and balance. Three sets of scales and a little math.

Balancing the control surfaces, if that is necessary may present a bit of a challenge, but even so...

 

[stingray]

I think 50 is high for a project. I think 70 may be high for that year basic 180. But I haven't priced 180s lately.

It is not really a project it is just not painted and no instruments. Use any plane, Would you rather pay a little more and have it completed to what I would do? Or would you rather complete it yourself the way you would like it done. His thinking is "They would not like the stripe I chose". I can install the radio, trans, instruments and paint for less than $10,000.00. To me it seems easier to sell a plane flying with new instruments and paint, than to sell one that will cost the average pilot at least $30,000.00 to complete at a shop.

Dan

 

[wabower]

It is not really a project it is just not painted and no instruments. Use any plane, Would you rather pay a little more and have it completed to what I would do? Or would you rather complete it yourself the way you would like it done. His thinking is "They would not like the stripe I chose". I can install the radio, trans, instruments and paint for less than $10,000.00. To me it seems easier to sell a plane flying with new instruments and paint, than to sell one that will cost the average pilot at least $30,000.00 to complete at a shop.

Dan

I agree with your premise, but not your numbers. Many more buyers for a completed package. I'm helping a couple of guys look for 180's now (friends, not clients) and you might be surprised how many are very knowledgeable about the cost of panel upgrades and are looking for well-equipped airplanes as opposed to the basic package you described

 

[dparter]

It is not really a project it is just not painted and no instruments. Use any plane, Would you rather pay a little more and have it completed to what I would do? Or would you rather complete it yourself the way you would like it done. His thinking is "They would not like the stripe I chose". I can install the radio, trans, instruments and paint for less than $10,000.00. To me it seems easier to sell a plane flying with new instruments and paint, than to sell one that will cost the average pilot at least $30,000.00 to complete at a shop.

Dan

Can you offer it as-is for $50,000 or with custom finishing for $50,000 + a negotiated fee, depending on what they want? If your custom installed and painted price will be less than the cost of taking it to another shop to finish, the buyer gets the best of both worlds -- the panel and paint they want, at a good price.

Of course, I have no idea if there is a buyer out there who wants to do that, for that plane at the price...

--david

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Yes everything to have a flying plane other than instruments.

His thinking is "They wouldn't like what I put in anyway". My thinking is Garmin SL40, Transponder, Sixpack. All new or rebuilt. Anything other than that and they can add as will. The plane would have basic VFR and very well at that.

Dan,

It seems like the Garmin 430 is almost universally sought-after these days. Put in a 430 for #1, an SL30 or KX155 as #2, transponder, audio panel/intercom, and six pack. You won't be able to hang on to it.

Also, you could put down just a white layer of paint and have a company like Air Graphics do whatever stripe design the buyer wants later. That's what we did on N271G. Air Graphics was reasonably priced and excellent to work with - They even did a replacement on one side after we had to replace a panel due to corrosion, for a VERY reasonable price, and you can't tell the difference.

 

[Henning]

"simple paint job?" is there such a thing in aviation?

i recall a thread about how difficult W&B is for a new paint job etc... so, doesnt sound simple. so much for my citing that though...

Weight and balance is never difficult to attain, just requires a scale and some blocks. It's no more than a phone call away.

 

[stingray]

I agree with your premise, but not your numbers. Many more buyers for a completed package. I'm helping a couple of guys look for 180's now (friends, not clients) and you might be surprised how many are very knowledgeable about the cost of panel upgrades and are looking for well-equipped airplanes as opposed to the basic package you described

You are saying exactly what I am, they would rather have it complete. The Owner thinks they will sell faster without everything.

Dan

 

[stingray]

Dan,

It seems like the Garmin 430 is almost universally sought-after these days. Put in a 430 for #1, an SL30 or KX155 as #2, transponder, audio panel/intercom, and six pack. You won't be able to hang on to it.

Also, you could put down just a white layer of paint and have a company like Air Graphics do whatever stripe design the buyer wants later. That's what we did on N271G. Air Graphics was reasonably priced and excellent to work with - They even did a replacement on one side after we had to replace a panel due to corrosion, for a VERY reasonable price, and you can't tell the difference.

Before I do that I would do what David suggests (To order). Problem with 430, SL30 and intercom is they are expensive ($13,000.00). This leaves out someone who just wants a VFR runaround float plane. The SL40 is a combo intercom and transponder is all you really need. Less than $3,000.00.

Dan

 

[dmccormack]

You are saying exactly what I am, they would rather have it complete. The Owner thinks they will sell faster without everything.

Dan

Purely anecdotal evidence, but.... Money spent on upgrading avionics is purely a break even. Most buyers want to buy low, then use the difference to upgrade to their own perfect panel.

While G430 seems to be the default choice, there are several desirable combinations, some which may or may not include the 430.

 

[wabower]

A guy tried to sell his all white 180 for a long time within the past year, posted a picture with the ads. I talked to him once out of curiosity, just to see how that strategy was working for him. He said if he had it to do over he would just stripe it in conventional colors. He said buyers have a hard time envisioning the finished product. YMMV

Dan,

It seems like the Garmin 430 is almost universally sought-after these days. Put in a 430 for #1, an SL30 or KX155 as #2, transponder, audio panel/intercom, and six pack. You won't be able to hang on to it.

Also, you could put down just a white layer of paint and have a company like Air Graphics do whatever stripe design the buyer wants later. That's what we did on N271G. Air Graphics was reasonably priced and excellent to work with - They even did a replacement on one side after we had to replace a panel due to corrosion, for a VERY reasonable price, and you can't tell the difference.

 

[infotango]

If I had VERY specific tastes about what color I wanted the airplane, and what I wanted in the stack, I'd really want the 50k airplane.
If you are planning on keeping the plane forever, then you can apply the leftover 20k to buying the airplane that you really want rather than having to pay 20k more just to have the paint and stack redone.

 

[gismo]

It is not really a project it is just not painted and no instruments. Use any plane, Would you rather pay a little more and have it completed to what I would do? Or would you rather complete it yourself the way you would like it done. His thinking is "They would not like the stripe I chose". I can install the radio, trans, instruments and paint for less than $10,000.00. To me it seems easier to sell a plane flying with new instruments and paint, than to sell one that will cost the average pilot at least $30,000.00 to complete at a shop.

Dan

I think that realistically you need to complete the airplane by installing all required flight and engine instrumentation and perhaps a very basic avionics setup (one comm and transponder). The vast majority of buyers are going to want to fly the plane before buying it and for that it needs to be airworthy. I would expect that most any potential purchaser will consider an airplane without a current signed off annual inspection to be a "project" and therefore expect a substantial discount (more than $20k in this case) on the price. The one thing you could definitely skip is painting assuming the control surfaces are properly balanced. I don't see that as being substantially different than selling an airworthy aircraft that has faded/chipped paint, the buyer will just factor in the cost of a paint job when determining an acceptable price.

 

[wabower]

Don't ever discount curb appeal when you're selling an airplane. A buyer will tell you he can "look past" as bad paint job and know how it will look after it's shined up. Most can't. How many guys want to take their wife out to see some dog they are about to spend a lot of money for?

I think that realistically you need to complete the airplane by installing all required flight and engine instrumentation and perhaps a very basic avionics setup (one comm and transponder). The vast majority of buyers are going to want to fly the plane before buying it and for that it needs to be airworthy. I would expect that most any potential purchaser will consider an airplane without a current signed off annual inspection to be a "project" and therefore expect a substantial discount (more than $20k in this case) on the price. The one thing you could definitely skip is painting assuming the control surfaces are properly balanced. I don't see that as being substantially different than selling an airworthy aircraft that has faded/chipped paint, the buyer will just factor in the cost of a paint job when determining an acceptable price.

 

[RMCN172RG]

I think the project will be limited to someone who thinks they can make money on it by finishing some or all of it themselves and profiting on the sale.

You can get financing of 80%, 56K, on a plane valued at 70k or 14K out of pocket to purchase it. That drops to 40K on a 50K project bring out of pocket to 30K to finish it. If you can do it for 20K.

 

[flyersfan31]

It is not really a project it is just not painted and no instruments. Use any plane, Would you rather pay a little more and have it completed to what I would do? Or would you rather complete it yourself the way you would like it done. His thinking is "They would not like the stripe I chose". I can install the radio, trans, instruments and paint for less than $10,000.00. To me it seems easier to sell a plane flying with new instruments and paint, than to sell one that will cost the average pilot at least $30,000.00 to complete at a shop.

Dan

Are you putting a price on your time? $20,000 for avionics and paint seems light.

 

[stingray]

Are you putting a price on your time? $20,000 for avionics and paint seems light.

I am not really doing this for the money. I make a flat $100.00 a day. This old guy is a blast to be around and he comes up with some really unique planes. We build one up then I get to fly it till it sells. Next project for next summer maybe this fall a 185 on floats, new engine. This winter Taylorcraft C85, ski's and hopefully floats. If I was in it for the money I would go back to water treatment.

Dan