How long does IFR take???

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gcd89

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Greg D.
Did it take more or less hours than your PPL?
 
gcd89 said:
Did it take more or less hours than your PPL?
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Since 50hrs of XC are required, it's gonna take more unless you have that. It's taking me 3 times as long to get it calendar time wise, mainly because I neglect to to training in order to go fly places for other reasons than ratings.
 
bartmc said:
Since 50hrs of XC are required, it's gonna take more unless you have that. It's taking me 3 times as long to get it calendar time wise, mainly because I neglect to to training in order to go fly places for other reasons than ratings.
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*flurry of swear words*
 
It can be done in under two weeks but you'll be busy.
 
Instrument took me half as much time as my private, so I wouldn't say it takes very long.
 
To get a PPL has only age and medical prerequisites. IR requires all PPL prerequisites are met with additional aviation experience requirements. How well the PPL maintains his skills before training can have an effect on time. I know cause I've seen numerous threads about it:D
 
Mine took just as long as the PPSEL. For both of them, the thing that spurred me on to finish up was my written was about to expire! I was in no hurry with either though. I was trying to learn as much as I could and also have some fun. The 50 hours of cross country was even fun, flying to a lot of different airports, some several hundred nm's away.
 
Assuming you have most all of the 50 hours of XC PIC time completed (45 is PIC's book minimum), and you have the minimum 3 hours of instrument time from your PP training, you can do the remaining 37 hours (combination of sim and flight time) and the practical test in as little as 10 days -- we do that all the time at Professional Instrument Courses (PIC -- http://www.iflyifr.com). I've seen some places advertise 7-day IR courses, but they usually require 10-15 hours of instrument time before you start, so that's not comparable.

Since PIC's instructors are all experienced professional aviators (largely former military and retired airline types) who will fly with you in the weather under IFR during training, you'll get real-world experience during the PIC program, and you will be prepared to go out and fly IFR by yourself after the checkride. OTOH, I've seen pilots trained by low-time instructors with virtually no IFR experience other than their own training, and those folks are often seriously underprepared to fly serious IFR, especially in actual instrument conditions in busy airspace.

In my own case, I got about 10 hours of instrument practice with safety pilots before I started the actual instrument training, so I only needed another 27 hours of instrument time when I started my instrument training. I did that training on a part-time basis while attending college full time, and it took about 2-1/2 months to complete.

As for the number of hours for PP, I racked up about 60 hours total getting my private, including 34 dual and 26 solo (min was 20 solo back then) spread over 11 months. For IR, it took about 18 hours of instruction plus 12 hours of practice with another instrument student as safety pilot, but I had the XC PIC requirement met before I started the training. Note that at that time (1971), you needed 200 hours TT to go for the IR, so folks tended to build a good bit of XC PIC time getting to that 200 mark.

Also, since the FAA doesn't permit solo instrument practice (either simulated or actual), all your instrument time will be with someone else, either an instrument instructor for training in flight or on the sim, or a safety pilot for hooded practice in flight.
 
In my opinion, one way to speed or at least improve instrument training is to get quite good at trimming your aircraft in various configurations. Get used to your aircraft settings (speed, prop, rpm, flaps, etc.) in various configurations such as 500 fpm climbs and descents, standard rate turns, etc. You can do some of that practice on your own, cheaply, VFR. Doesn't hurt to take a CFI or CFI-I up for an hour to get you back in the groove if you are rusty. Most of my instrument students took several hours to get up to speed and even then sometimes would be sloppy. When one is trying to get the plane stabilized, it's hard to also be learning something new.
Get really familiar with your comm and nav radios, GPS, A/P and other instruments so you can operate them readily rather than stumble through that while also trying to fly a glide slope.
Finally, to stay proficient in IFR you really need to fly it fairly often, either in an airplane or simulator. It's a skill that it seems to me can get rusty quickly, so budget the time and money to either file and fly or get up with a CFI-I as needed.
I guess I'd also say that while a PP wants to be proficient and has to meet PTS standards, the community does accept it as a license to learn. In my own opinion only, an IFR ticket can get you into some places where you already need to know, so maybe I like to see people even better prepared as IFR pilots than as PP. Admittedly a double standard. IFR in actual, single pilot, at night, in a busy airport with complicated approaches can be very stressful.
 
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A week/ 40 hrs for the flying and whatever you need for the written.
 
Bear in mind that getting the rating, like all certification and ratings, is a license to learn. Getting your rating doesn't necessarily mean you're ready to go fly instruments.

The instrument rating is one of the more important ratings you'll get, even if you hardly ever end up flying instruments. It's the training that will benefit you, and that stays beneficial only so long as you work to keep it current and fresh in your mind and repertoire.

It's very possible to blow through a certificate or rating in short order, if you have the money on hand, the free time, and the inclination to buckle down and study. Reducing the duration of study, however, often has the unintended consequence of rushing the learning, too; retention tends to suffer. Internalizing the learning, really taking it in and making it a part of your flying habits and understanding, suffers when duration is compressed, too.

Some things ought not be rushed. Instrument training is one of those things.

It ought not be too drawn out, either. Like all training, frustration and retention goes downhill if it's too drawn out, with material needing repetition because it's not being addressed frequently enough. Either way, too fast through the rating or too slow, and you won't come away with as much of the material ingrained in your skill set as perhaps you ought.
 
Henning said:
A week/ 40 hrs for the flying and whatever you need for the written.
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How many pilots have you trained from the basic PP 3 hours to their instrument rating in one week? Oh, that's right -- you aren't a flight instructor -- sorry.

Personally, after quite a few years specializing in intensive instrument training, I don't think what Henning says is possible. Even GATTS doesn't try to do more than 30 hours of instrument time in a week (you must have 10 hours of instrument time going into that course).

Note that it takes rather more than 40 hours of flying to get 40 hours of instrument time because you're not under the hood or in the goo from chocks to chocks. Typically, you only get about 80-90% of the flight as "instrument time," and that means 45-50 hours of flight time to get those 40 hours of instrument time. Throw in the necessary ground training, pre-flight briefing/planning, etc, and you'd be talking at least 12 hours a day for seven straight days, and that doesn't include homework/study time. That, in my experience, is pretty much impossible to accomplish.
 
DouglasBader said:
It's very possible to blow through a certificate or rating in short order, if you have the money on hand, the free time, and the inclination to buckle down and study. Reducing the duration of study, however, often has the unintended consequence of rushing the learning, too; retention tends to suffer. Internalizing the learning, really taking it in and making it a part of your flying habits and understanding, suffers when duration is compressed, too.
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That is why I always tell my 10-day instrument trainees to go out and fly at least 8 IFR flights including approach procedures, regardless of how good the weather is, in the 4-6 weeks following completion of the training. As I tell them, "That which is quickly learned is as quickly forgotten if not as quickly exercised."
 
I encourage students to do their initial instrument work, or flying after the instrument, either with an instructor or with an experienced instrument pilot. For hooded work or basic work, they can simply use a safety pilot, but any actual IMC work ought to be done with the accompaniment of someone who can provide support in those conditions.

Actual IMC isn't the same as the hood, and the initial time after the check ride, and the first few flights, out to be done under supervision with support. Instruction shouldn't end with the rating.
 
I was **** hot flying instruments the day I got my ticket. I had done 40 hrs in a week during the California winter shooting approaches into every airport from the Bay area down. Did it all with a single KX 170B and an ADF.
 
Didn't think the 3 hours from Private pilot training could count towards an instrument rating.
 
vintage cessna said:
Didn't think the 3 hours from Private pilot training could count towards an instrument rating.
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it counts towards the 40 hours total instrument time, but not the 15 hours of instrument flight training. See 61.65(d)(2), 61.109(a)(3), and the definitions of instrument time in 61.51(g) and instrument training and flight training in 61.1.
 
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Henning said:
I was **** hot flying instruments the day I got my ticket. I had done 40 hrs in a week during the California winter shooting approaches into every airport from the Bay area down. Did it all with a single KX 170B and an ADF.
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:rofl:
 
Mine took two weeks but I was able to use my military time to make up for most of the hour requirements. Really didn't get the best training. Since I was an Instrument Flight Examiner in the military (rotorcraft) he seemed to think I knew everything about FARs and fixed wing stuff. He just kept saying "your doing fine, no problems." l did my best to study the regs on my own noting differences between military rotorcraft and civilian fixed wing so I did feel prepared for the checkride. Unfortunately 2 days prior to checkride the little Liberty XL breaks I have to jump into a PA-28 (piece o' crap). I already had about 100 hrs of PA-28 flying years ago but now I had to jump into a new airframe when I had began to love the Garmin 430! Anyway, the checkride went fine and I got my IFR ticket.

I know it's a topic for another discussion but if your going to get your instrument rating, try and make sure you're going to use it. After getting mine I slowly drifted out of currency. For me it's hard to get out and do 6 instrument approaches in 6 months. With my job it's hard to find time and consistant IMC weather to maintain currency. I enjoyed flying that Liberty in and it was nice to get familiar with IFR GPS operations but I think 3 grand was a bit pricey to do that and not keep up with currency. Maybe I'll go out and get an IPC again but for know I'll just have to deal with flying on pretty days.
 
A good practice once rated is to take advantage of flying an approach at each destination (or when possible), regardless of the weather. If the weather is VFR, fly the procedure anyway; if nothing else, go through the motions, follow the needle(s) down.
 
"You Instrument Qual ride is Saturday, Lt, are you ready?"
"What is this thing you call ready?"
"Carry on!"

I'd say a mid life person needs about 50 hrs unless he's really hitting it hard. I had an 18 year old ready for the DPE at 35 hours. It was friking amazing. He was good. We went to Commander's Palace in a C150 to kill the remaining hours.
 
Ron - is PIC part 141?
 
ah, there goes that for GI Bill consideration - thanks for the info
 
I arrived at GATTS (gatts.org) in KS with my written passed and almost all the experience requirements done. 7 tiring but exciting days later I had my IR. A couple weeks later my instructor friend back home flew with me to 'prove' I couldn't REALLY be competent or safe with a one week program. He apologized and bought lunch.

It's been tougher for me to maintain than to obtain. Periodically I've needed to hire an instructor to go with me for new equipment, new types of approaches, and IPCs when I haven't been flying as much as I should, but the basic GATTS training is in the back of my mind, just like my primary instructor's voice.

Some people respond better to dedicated intense training, some retain better when the training is more spread out. I retain better in dedicated training but also need to take breaks throughout the day and eat on a somewhat regular basis. It's taken me years to learn my wife is right about me getting cranky and stupid if I skip too many meals.
 
I completed my IFR rating this spring in 7 days in an accelerated course through a local instructor. I did have past experience from previous attempts at the rating. I had already passed the knowledge test and had all of the prerequisite hours (50 hours PIC XC). While those were some busy and exhaustive days, I would still prefer to do it that way. Dragging it out over months with a couple of flights per week just doesn't appeal to me. I do agree with Ron about using it soon and often after the check ride, even if VFR.
 
Arrow115 said:
I completed my IFR rating this spring in 7 days in an accelerated course through a local instructor. I did have past experience from previous attempts at the rating. I had already passed the knowledge test and had all of the prerequisite hours (50 hours PIC XC).
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We generally book 5 days for those "finish-up" programs, maybe more if they're short on the total instrument hours, with the checkride on Day 5. Usually works.
 
Ron Levy said:
We generally book 5 days for those "finish-up" programs, maybe more if they're short on the total instrument hours, with the checkride on Day 5. Usually works.
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I was short on recent instrument time. It had been around 5 years since my last try at the rating before moving for my current job. Do you check about the examiner before you schedule training? The big surprise for us was the limited availability of the DPE. It took a couple of weeks to fit in the check ride. I didn't have any problems on the check ride (I passed) but I would have preferred to have the check ride on the last day like you described.
 
Arrow115 said:
Do you check about the examiner before you schedule training?
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Not for full 10-day programs, but I usually do for short finish-up courses.
The big surprise for us was the limited availability of the DPE. It took a couple of weeks to fit in the check ride. I didn't have any problems on the check ride (I passed) but I would have preferred to have the check ride on the last day like you described.
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I've always been able to find an examiner on seven days' notice, but my "regular beat" is where there are usually quite a few choices within an hour's flying time. The only time I couldn't involved a check in a 58 Baron in Arkansas when the FAA was a lot stricter about ME examiners being qualified in make/model.
 
Depends on why you are getting it and who is teaching it.

If you get your IFR from a experienced CFI (i.e. experienced in flying IMC not just teaching IFR) it will take you a while (probably a little less then your PPL).
 
NineThreeKilo said:
Depends on why you are getting it and who is teaching it.

If you get your IFR from a experienced CFI (i.e. experienced in flying IMC not just teaching IFR) it will take you a while (probably a little less then your PPL).
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Please explain the basis of your opinion
:popcorn:
 
Jaybird180 said:
Please explain the basis of your opinion
:popcorn:
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Well my opinion is based of teaching quite a few folks how to fly.

There are two ways to train people

1) train them to pass a test, this is very common with inexperienced CFIs, as all their experience is around the PTS, flight schools, a few DPEs and being then teaching students.

2) train them to not only pass the test but also be proficient in the real world (this requires real world knowledge). Case and point, if I as ask most CFIIs to state the instruments in their scan, I'll get the standard issue answer, AI, AS, HI, ALT, etc HOWEVER most of these CFIIs who really dont do any IMC flying, or have ever gone on any across-the-country, cross countries FAIL to mention OAT, and that will KILL you in a light single in IMC.


Now if you are not going to do any IMC flying, you just want to pass a test and get instrument on the back of your ticket, it's not hard to get someone to pass the tests (especially if one has past debrief experience on that DPE and knows his exact checkride). This is what alot of puppy mill schools and fast pace programs do.

So there is a completion time difference between 1 &2
 
IFR doesn't require any training at all.

All you need is a Piper Saratoga and a rich family that lives in Martha's Vineyard!! :lol: :lol: :lol:
 
NineThreeKilo said:
Well my opinion is based of teaching quite a few folks how to fly.

There are two ways to train people

1) train them to pass a test, this is very common with inexperienced CFIs, as all their experience is around the PTS, flight schools, a few DPEs and being then teaching students.

2) train them to not only pass the test but also be proficient in the real world (this requires real world knowledge). Case and point, if I as ask most CFIIs to state the instruments in their scan, I'll get the standard issue answer, AI, AS, HI, ALT, etc HOWEVER most of these CFIIs who really dont do any IMC flying, or have ever gone on any across-the-country, cross countries FAIL to mention OAT, and that will KILL you in a light single in IMC.


Now if you are not going to do any IMC flying, you just want to pass a test and get instrument on the back of your ticket, it's not hard to get someone to pass the tests (especially if one has past debrief experience on that DPE and knows his exact checkride). This is what alot of puppy mill schools and fast pace programs do.

So there is a completion time difference between 1 &2
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That and vacuum. If your vac pump stops sucking it really sucks.
 
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