How long -- cessna to piper transition

[EHITCH]

OK, now that I've secured my PPL flying 20-30 year-old C-172s, I'd like to get checked out in the club's brand new Piper complete with glass cockpit -- figure I deserve it after flying many versions of "the pride of the fleet," if you know what I mean.
What would be an average number of hours to transition from the high-wing cessna to the low-wing piper? Apart from learning the POH/AFM info on the ground, what type of air time would be safe -- 3-4 hours? 5-6? More? I realize part of the equation is how I feel in the plane. (Also planning to do this with my CFI). Also big part of the equation is the $25/hr cost differential ...
Also, beyond the obvious -- TO/L, power on/off stalls, slow flight, grm --- are there other things you would recommend?
Elizabeth

 

[Ken Ibold]

To go from a 172 to a Warrior/Archer airframe is an hour, maybe two. There's really no big difference. The bigger fish to fry is the glass cockpit. 10 hours of transition time to glass is certainly not unheard of, sometimes more, somtimes less.

 

[bbchien]

To go from a 172 to a Warrior/Archer airframe is an hour, maybe two. There's really no big difference. The bigger fish to fry is the glass cockpit. 10 hours of transition time to glass is certainly not unheard of, sometimes more, somtimes less.

If I recall correctly Elizabeth is not IR'd. So the basic instruments- TC, ASI, Altimeter will exist though the DG will not. If she's been taught the performance method, she can basically ignore the glass panel.

I wouldn't recommend that, though.

 

[EHITCH]

If I recall correctly Elizabeth is not IR'd. So the basic instruments- TC, ASI, Altimeter will exist though the DG will not. If she's been taught the performance method, she can basically ignore the glass panel.

I wouldn't recommend that, though.

Bruce is correct, the ink is barely dry on my ticket, so no instrument rating.

But what do you mean by "the performance method?"
EH

 

[T Bone]

To go from a 172 to a Warrior/Archer airframe is an hour, maybe two. There's really no big difference. The bigger fish to fry is the glass cockpit. 10 hours of transition time to glass is certainly not unheard of, sometimes more, somtimes less.

Elizebeth, I'm about where you are (ink barely dry in my case). I plan to transition to our PA28 180 in a couple weeks. As stated by Ken, an hour or two is all the plane takes. Also as stated by Ken, the glass panel is entirely another matter. Is it Garmin, Avidyne, or?

I know a guy who bought a new 172 with a Garmin G1000 glass panel immediately upon getting his ticket. He got training directly from Cessna (in a 182 in fact, giving him a high perf. endorsement as well!) and I think their time was a total of 10 hours instruction, mixed ground and flight. Seems like the proper number (but again, some maybe 30 or 40 % of that is ground). Bottom line, your FBO will probably have specific requirements and since it's their plane, what they say goes (as a minimum anyway). See what your instructor thinks (he/she will also have a pretty good handle on your flying abilities and how quick you pick up new things).

2¢ (maybe less..... )

 

[wsuffa]

Elizabeth,

It took me about 2-3 hours to transition from Cessna (172/172RG/182) to my low-wing Commander. It took longer to meet the insurance requirements.

I think it's going to take you longer to adjust to the glass cockpit.

 

[cherokeeflyboy]

These comments represent those of the poster and not necessarily those of the staff and managment of PoA.[/QUOTE]

Just curious Steve, why the disclaimer?

 

[Ken Ibold]

Well, the staff and management has already stated it could take hours to transition from a low wing to a high wing.

Huh? I don't recall anyone making such a claim.

The transition from simple low wing to simple high wing is, as you say and as I originally said, a simple one. Most FBOs have a minimum 1 hour checkout requirement regardless of experience or demonstrated proficiency.

Issues for the transition include: fuel management, knowing the V speeds and correlating them to aircraft attitude, fuel management, learning where all the gauges and switches are, fuel management, remembering that the flaps are on the floor between the seats, and fuel management. Oh, and did I mention fuel management? Procedurally, I don't know there is any difference at all except for the Piper's electric fuel pump.

 

[Bill]

What would be an average number of hours to transition from the high-wing cessna to the low-wing piper?

172=>Archer III my instructor took me out and we did most of the PTS maneuvers, and about 6 landings, 1.2hrs, and I was signed off on the PA-28.

Learning the 430's and S-TEC took a good bit of home study (you can download pdfs of the POH's from most of the manufacturers) and goofing around in the plane on the tiedown. I still am learning the finer points of using this equipment, I imagine the glass panel will take more time.

 

[bbchien]

To make it really short & sweet, fly by pitch (that's out the window) and power and checking Pitch/power by what you get for airspeed and climb rate. These backup instruments exist in the glass panel setups.

For example, if your CFI covered you instruments during landing and you know how to establish 70 mph with throttle and sight picture- these things don't change with a Garmin Glass panel. So the actually transition is quite quick- they fly similarly. It's learing the Garmin that takes some care and homework given the IR pilot.

 

[EHITCH]

I can't remember who asked, but it's an Archer with an Avidyne panel.

BTW, the best lesson I ever had was doing TO/L with the panel mostly covered (and in some instances without flaps and without power) -- it's amazing what you know about how the plane looks and sounds that you do not focus on when you are watching the ASI etc, instead of out the window. Great day, I hope everyone had/has lessons like that.

EH

 

[Bill]

BTW, the best lesson I ever had was doing TO/L with the panel mostly covered

It is fun! My first Citabria lesson was from the back seat, no instruments. Thus quoth my instructor, "Feel the plane."

Did takeoff, slow flight, full stall series, leaf stalls, and landing no instruments.

 

[grattonja]

If I recall correctly Elizabeth is not IR'd. So the basic instruments- TC, ASI, Altimeter will exist though the DG will not. If she's been taught the performance method, she can basically ignore the glass panel.

I wouldn't recommend that, though.

My only concern with the possibility of ignoring the glass panel (which I know you weren't recommending) is that a fair amount of engine management stuff may be there. I don't know about the Archer III, but the G1000 panel that I flew in a Diamondstar had the engine temps, manifold pressure, fuel flow etc on the glass panel. And you had to hit some buttons to find some of the stuff.

The panel was a significant factor in trying to get comfortable with the Diamondstar.

The only physical difference that I have noted in transitioning between cessna and piper is the low wing tendancy to float slightly longer in the flare, because the wing is down lower in ground effect. Some notice it more (I did) and some less.

Jim G

 

[Ed Guthrie]

What would be an average number of hours to transition from the high-wing cessna to the low-wing piper?

As long as it takes to remember the electric fuel boost pump switch. Seriously, that is the only significant flying difference.

 

[BillG]

Damn, that could take a while, Ed. I'm still having trouble remembering it sometimes in my Tiger! Switching tanks is new, too - much easier with the Cessna "Both" setting.

 

[SCCutler]

I always have "turn-on, turn-on (on runway, on landing light, strobes & boost pump)" ; "turn-out, turn-off" (out of the pattern, off wth the landing light and the boost pump);

Works better on the later Pa28's (later: post-'68!), with the rocker switches to the right of the throttle quadrant, than the older ones with the toggles to the right, which actually require serious visual examination for identification of switches (at least, for me).

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

It took club students in Cherokee 140, & me, in Cherokee 180, routinely, an hour, or 1 1/2 hours before we got rid of the Piper Cherokee 140. But that was without class panel, just handheld GPS.

 

[Larry Liebscher]

My concern about "ignoring the glass panel" is I wonder if it is even possible. I just got a new Honda Odyssey with the navigation system along with a bunch of other bells and whistles. I can't believe the number of times I've found myself completely distracted by all the pretty pictures and buttons to push. And that is driving. Something I've been doing daily for almost 40 years.

For a low time pilot, the glass panel seems like a real siren song. I have no experience with this, but taking it seriously with several hours with a CFI as well as some serious book or PC sim time seems like the prudent thing to do. Get the basics well understood, including the GPS navigation features. You don't want to find yourself head down in the cockpit trying to decipher sub-menus.

It seems to me that with all these new panels you have to make the decision that you are going to fly a particular plane with some regularity and then commit to learning electronics and display.

 

[EHITCH]

It seems to me that with all these new panels you have to make the decision that you are going to fly a particular plane with some regularity and then commit to learning electronics and display.

Yes, the repetition/retention issue has occurred to me too. With our more complex 3D drafting programs such as Microstation and Architectural desktop, if I have not used them in a while my productivity slumps for a bit until I remember where/what the commands and routines are. I do not want to be glued to the glowing glass with the same problem at altitude.
EH

 

[poadeleted20]

I agree with the general trend -- a couple of hours of ground training on systems and a couple of flights of an hour or so each should do to train a competent and proficient C-172 pilot into an Archer or Warrior (that's about what it usually takes to get a good C-172/PA28 pilot through the AYA's PFP checkout in a Grumman). However, the Avidyne panel MUST be learned, too, as you really do need to use it for some things, and there's always the chance of inadvertant or unplanned flight into weather, as well as the hazy days of summer where the only horizon reference you have is the instruments. So I would feel that a full Avidyne training program would be essential for safe flight, and that is probably a day or two of ground training and a few more flights.

 

[grattonja]

My concern about "ignoring the glass panel" is I wonder if it is even possible. I just got a new Honda Odyssey with the navigation system along with a bunch of other bells and whistles. I can't believe the number of times I've found myself completely distracted by all the pretty pictures and buttons to push. And that is driving. Something I've been doing daily for almost 40 years.

For a low time pilot, the glass panel seems like a real siren song. I have no experience with this, but taking it seriously with several hours with a CFI as well as some serious book or PC sim time seems like the prudent thing to do. Get the basics well understood, including the GPS navigation features. You don't want to find yourself head down in the cockpit trying to decipher sub-menus.

It seems to me that with all these new panels you have to make the decision that you are going to fly a particular plane with some regularity and then commit to learning electronics and display.

During some mountain training this spring, we had the chance to get a bit of time in a G1000 equipped Diamondstar. It was the point where we were coming back to Boulder CO that I realized how distracting those screens are. We had traffic id on the screen, and all three of us, two pilots and a CFI, were head's in the cockpit looking at traffic hits from the numerous gliders around us. I, the left seat and PIC, finally got my head out of the cockpit when I realized that we were ALL looking at that stupid screen on a VFR day. Probably at least a dozen gliders in the same airspace with us. Oops. Not again. When the folks I rent from get a G1000 'hawk in, probably next year, it will be training time again.

Jim G

 

[gismo]

BTW, the best lesson I ever had was doing TO/L with the panel mostly covered (and in some instances without flaps and without power)

Those takeoffs without power must have been pretty exciting!

-- it's amazing what you know about how the plane looks and sounds that you do not focus on when you are watching the ASI etc, instead of out the window. Great day, I hope everyone had/has lessons like that.

Glass panel issues aside, that's how you can tell when you have really completed the transition to another plane.

 

[Henning]

OK, now that I've secured my PPL flying 20-30 year-old C-172s, I'd like to get checked out in the club's brand new Piper complete with glass cockpit -- figure I deserve it after flying many versions of "the pride of the fleet," if you know what I mean.
What would be an average number of hours to transition from the high-wing cessna to the low-wing piper? Apart from learning the POH/AFM info on the ground, what type of air time would be safe -- 3-4 hours? 5-6? More? I realize part of the equation is how I feel in the plane. (Also planning to do this with my CFI). Also big part of the equation is the $25/hr cost differential ...
Also, beyond the obvious -- TO/L, power on/off stalls, slow flight, grm --- are there other things you would recommend?
Elizabeth

The flying you can get over in about 20 minutes, the avionics will take 10 hrs for basic competecy in. Flying is flying, a high speed taxi and two landings will get you that, it's not any more complex of a an airframe or power system, the avionics is like upgrading from a 5 function calculator to a PC.

 

[EHITCH]

Those takeoffs without power must have been pretty exciting!

Yup, remember Fred Flintstone in his car? They were kinda like that .... actually probably possible in a 152, maybe not in a 172 ...