House electrical wiring dilemma

mikea

mikea

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Please allow as I have another ADD episode...

I'm going to buy my first batch of X-10 stuff to fix and update the wiring in the house and begin the home automation.

There are 3 three-way circuits with switches in the front room and kitchen that never worked right. I had an idea that the old man who built the place was hazy on the 3-way concept. Then I noticed that the older switches are 3-way. Having opened up the boxes, I'm beginning to believe that "Boris" the previous owner, wanted white switches when he painted so he bought a handful of standard switches. *doh!* I haven't as yet verified that there's a loose wire fro the 3 way in each box where Boris put a switch, but it looks to be that way.

My immediate problems:

I replaced a bunch of the bulbs in ceiling fixtures with CFLs, so I can't use the standard X-10 switches, which only work with incandescents. I found that there are flouresenct switches and my investigation gives me hope that there is a neutral in each box, if that's needed. I don't know how the companion switch for 3-way connects but I think I'm OK, so that problem is in hand.

There switches by the front door for the outside lights are on one of those old 3-slot module single-gang switches. For the life of me, I can't Google to find out what it's called. Amazingly, I found out that that switch and the three newer ones alongside it are in the same box, with drywall on the single gang in between.

X10 doesn't appear to make a multi single gang switch, and certainly not for fluorescents.

Hey, Mike, how about a picture? Well, OK.

So I can add one switch, and split out of the triple but not both of the two that would have to go.

My question: I'm thinking I could add a second single box above or below. Would that be excessively oogly? How far away should I make it?

I'm thinking I may just connect two outside light circuits together temporarily. There are 3 sets of overhead lights: one set on the roof soffit, a set on the car port, and the one on the entry door. Having the last two work together wouldn't be real bad.

Any advice?
 
I''ve wired nearly my whole house, including three way switches - and I have no idea what you want to do with what you wrote. Open up mspaint and draw us something!


Oh, and a fun circuit is a three way switch with 2 lights in the middle, what a pain in the butt to get that to work.
 
What Ed said. I've done almost all the wiring in our house and don't have a clue what you're trying to accomplish Mike.
In short, 3 way switches are a pain in the shorts the first time. The first one I got right I labeled all the wires and just mirrored that for the next set of switches.
 
EdFred said:
I''ve wired nearly my whole house, including three way switches - and I have no idea what you want to do with what you wrote. Open up mspaint and draw us something!


Oh, and a fun circuit is a three way switch with 2 lights in the middle, what a pain in the butt to get that to work.
Click to expand...

I'm not going to have a problem with 3-way wiring once I replace the wrong switches.

The problem in a nutshell, is fitting 5 switches into 4 gangs. If I add a single gang box above would it look really stoopid? I could make it 2 over 3.

Oh, and another question. Is there a (home owner affordable) wire tracing gizmo that works with AC wiring? The hall light there doesn't work and I don't know why and I have other switches that I can't figure out where they go. I have such a troubleshooter that uses an audio tone for low voltage/telephone wiring. It can find wire the just by getting close. I guess I could kill all the power and use that.

The pics. You can also see how Boris splashed white paint everywhere in a last minute attempt to spruce up the house for sale before the foreclosure. It would have been nice if he painted one thing at a time rather than ruin the trim on a bunch of doors and windows.
 

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kevin47881 said:
What Ed said. I've done almost all the wiring in our house and don't have a clue what you're trying to accomplish Mike.
In short, 3 way switches are a pain in the shorts the first time. The first one I got right I labeled all the wires and just mirrored that for the next set of switches.
Click to expand...

I know how 3-way and if pushed, 4-way switches are wired. I did a demo of that in elementary school. :D

I can keep that straight, even the colors and the runs going off in all kinds of directions.

I was also a contractor for about 15 years, which is why I have some of the toys and tools.
 
If you were a contractor you would know to cringe when a customer spoke the stuff you said.

I owned a construction company (80% of my biz was whole house residential remodel) and I started to laugh when I read "I'm going to buy my first batch of ...".

My suggestion is to just hire a qualified electrician. You're making the simple overly complex. He would be in and out in under half a day.
 
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Richard said:
If you were a contractor you would know to cringe when a customer spoke the stuff you said.

I owned a construction company (80% of my biz was whole house residential remodel) and I started to laugh when I read "I'm going to buy my first batch of ...".

My suggestion is to just hire a qualified electrician. You're making the simple overly complex. He would be in and out in under half a day.
Click to expand...

I don't need, and probably couldn't find, an electrician to do the home automation, which is what I'm beginning to build. Ya think he knows Mac automation software?

I do have name of an electrician I met at the airport. I should ask him to stop by for an opinion. I was asking him about how to trace out the dead hall light (which I can do with a meter once I have a round tuit), and other stuff like a new service entrance. I would have a pro handle that.
 
...not an electrician either, but I know my way around sparks and wires pretty well, and I *am* on the Board of Directors of the Independent Electrical Contractors of Texas.

Mike, I cannot tell from the photo whether the 3-gang switch is just 3 SPST switches, or if they are 3-way. But that really does not matter for the moment.

Is there a stud in the wall between the two boxes? I am guessing yes, but check and tell us. if not, I'd yank both out and put in a 5-gang box and standard-size switches (X10 or not).

If there is a stud there, well, you may be hosed for making it less ugly.

One other thought, though: If you are dealing with 3-way circuits, you could hard-wire on this end (to eliminate the requirement for a device at this location entirely), and use the X10 switch at the other 3-way switch location. No real loss, since you are installing an RF-controllable remote device anyway. If you choose this route, of course, you'd want to document it well with an "as-built" document.

I know, I know, who ever heard of an airframe log for houses? But how often have you wished that you had such a beast, eh? Sure would be nice to know what it looks like behind the drywall, wouldn't it? Builders don't much care for THAT idea, lemme tell ya.

Oh, and thanks for the link to the eBay X10 store; I have wanted to buy some X10 stuff, but find the X10.com website so obnoxious (not to mention their old, but still remembered, spam ad campaigns) that, even if I could figure out what I wanted to buy from their site, I would not.
 
SCCutler said:
...not an electrician either, but I know my way around sparks and wires pretty well, and I *am* on the Board of Directors of the Independent Electrical Contractors of Texas.

Mike, I cannot tell from the photo whether the 3-gang switch is just 3 SPST switches, or if they are 3-way. But that really does not matter for the moment.

Is there a stud in the wall between the two boxes? I am guessing yes, but check and tell us. if not, I'd yank both out and put in a 5-gang box and standard-size switches (X10 or not).
If there is a stud there, well, you may be hosed for making it less ugly.
Click to expand...

Wow. I just had a Twilight Zone web moment...I cut and pasted and got somebody else's post in the money thread. One I haven't even seen yet. Weird.


That's what's weird, prolly due to the original amateur home builder. Everything you see is in one 4 gang box, 4 single gangs together. There's drywall over the second slot.

I used my new stud finder. The box attaches to a stud on the left of the box. I don't think I have enough room to add a gang on the right before I hit the door frame to the right. I checked the clearance with a plate cover. Doesn't look good.

SCCutler said:
One other thought, though: If you are dealing with 3-way circuits, you could hard-wire on this end (to eliminate the requirement for a device at this location entirely), and use the X10 switch at the other 3-way switch location. No real loss, since you are installing an RF-controllable remote device anyway.
Click to expand...


I've been thinking that I'll add a transmitter there at the entrance so... if I get one that fits in a box I can justify having the 2 gangs of switches above the other three.

I know these are designed for surface mounting:
http://www.smarthomeusa.com/ShopByManufacturer/X-10-Pro/Item/PHW04D/
But I came across a neato one, but it might be expensive:
http://www.act-solutions.com/PCC/pdfs/PCCSpecs/TK134 334_spec.pdf
That ACT looks to be a one-man garage company, but I guess his products are great.

SCCutler said:
If you choose this route, of course, you'd want to document it well with an "as-built" document.

I know, I know, who ever heard of an airframe log for houses? But how often have you wished that you had such a beast, eh? Sure would be nice to know what it looks like behind the drywall, wouldn't it? Builders don't much care for THAT idea, lemme tell ya.
Click to expand...

I just watched a Homes on Holmes where he went through a basement and found 48 hidden electrical junctions, including a live one dead ending in the wall of the shower, :hairraise:, among a plumbing disaster. The electrician got so worked up Mike had to take him out for coffee to calm him down.

I don't have problems such in my place. So far the only thing I spotted was some of the (redundant) braces between the floor beams aren't nailed in on both sides. I think the old guy built a helluva house for hisself. He just took the easy way out and wired the place with BX. :D Well,... and put the sump pump outside. :dunno:

The documentation is only as good as the last guy who touched it. e.g. When my sociopath old city neighbor asked how to get a replacement garage door opener transmitter I told him the guy who put in the garage door stapled his card to the wall in the garage....so he tore it off. :mad:

SCCutler said:
Oh, and thanks for the link to the eBay X10 store; I have wanted to buy some X10 stuff, but find the X10.com website so obnoxious (not to mention their old, but still remembered, spam ad campaigns) that, even if I could figure out what I wanted to buy from their site, I would not.
Click to expand...

I've been doing online research for a long while. That ebay store guy has high shipping but I think if you order enough to get his shipping discount it works out.

I too hate X10.comand Smarthome.com's prices are nuts. I use Smarthome for a reference though.

Some links for ya:

http://www.x10community.com/forums/index.php?board=7.0
http://www.econtrol.org/x-10.htm

And you need a Mac:
http://www.shed.com/features.html#features
Some great tech notes there, too.

Google CFLs with X10 and see what I'm talking about and what we're all in for when incandescent bulbs are banned in the US....also imagine such as theater marquees with CFLs. :no:
 
OBTW, when a CFL gets old and starts to flicker, the electrical noise it sends out is unbelievable. Look that up under, "unintended consequences."

A flickering CFL will inhibit all X10 signals.
 
SCCutler said:
OBTW, when a CFL gets old and starts to flicker, the electrical noise it sends out is unbelievable. Look that up under, "unintended consequences."

A flickering CFL will inhibit all X10 signals.
Click to expand...


YeahIknow. That could be why I couldn't get the bit of X10 stuff I scrounged up to work for the Christmas lights. I have over a dozen CFLs.

Besides the CFLs possibly feeding noise to the lines, the problem with using X10s to contrl them is the modules dont' really cut of the current. They need a resistive load to power the module so they "leak" enough current through the load to steal power from it. That leak is enough to make a flourestscent flicker.


Sooo...As I said I need the X10 switches that don't work like that. The other switches need a neutral connection to get the power, which you might not have where an old switch was.

I'm reading I may need noise filters and such. *sigh* I should just go back to 49 cent light bulbs,
 
SCCutler said:
Oh, and thanks for the link to the eBay X10 store; I have wanted to buy some X10 stuff, but find the X10.com website so obnoxious (not to mention their old, but still remembered, spam ad campaigns) that, even if I could figure out what I wanted to buy from their site, I would not.
Click to expand...

Spike, I ordered some X10 stuff from three eBay stores. I wanted to give you an early warning.

None received yet. I'm seeing that just like this guy, sheridan-b5 says, X10 Express and X10 Warehouse are THE SAME GUY. (They both shipped from Coppel, TX.) The shipping charges at X10 Express are only discounted $2 for additional items. X10 Warehouse gives you 50% off.

BOTH are too high on shipping. I think the higher cost item with the cheaper shipping works out better - certainly within a few bucks. I did a spreadsheet to figure out which of the various scams were cheaper. The 50% deal is better, obviously. I also went with 3 packs to save on the per-item shipping.

I ordered more stuff from sheridan-b5 and the TOTAL shipping was $6. I think I'll go with the more honest guy. He has some at auction with low starting bids. I saved a few bucks that way. Besides how could we not love a store that has a SR-71 in the logo?

There's one more store called Digitronex Domain that I think might also be the same guy. It also has the 50% shipping deal. The prices on all of his stores vary.
I'm still way out over my skis, considering that I can't get anything X10 I have to work. I'm just confident that I can find and fix any noise or "signal sucker" issues.

My biggest challenge so far is fighting the urge to buy testing equipment when I may manage to get the new stuff working by process of elimination.

Oh! I'm definitely gonna get one if these XTB-IIR units. I wonder if I'll cancel my homeowner's insurance by connecting something not UL listed. SHHHHHH. :rolleyes:

*sigh* I've spent way too much time on this. :mad:
 
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Mike: I am impressed.
 
SCCutler said:
Oh, and thanks for the link to the eBay X10 store; I have wanted to buy some X10 stuff, but find the X10.com website so obnoxious (not to mention their old, but still remembered, spam ad campaigns) that, even if I could figure out what I wanted to buy from their site, I would not.
Click to expand...
I'm with you on that Spike. I *will not* buy a X10 product. All I can think about are their old advertisements. There is no way I'm giving them money.
 
jesse said:
I'm with you on that Spike. I *will not* buy a X10 product. All I can think about are their old advertisements. There is no way I'm giving them money.
Click to expand...

Yep, Spam, Spam, and more spam. They were one of the first to make it into my server-side reject filter.
 
jesse said:
I'm with you on that Spike. I *will not* buy a X10 product. All I can think about are their old advertisements. There is no way I'm giving them money.
Click to expand...

wsuffa said:
Yep, Spam, Spam, and more spam. They were one of the first to make it into my server-side reject filter.
Click to expand...

I'm with youse two, too. The popup / popunder attacks came from X10.com which is not the X10 manufacturer, or the only company selling X10 (X10 Powerhouse, X10 Activehome, X10 Pro...) products much less other products that use the X10 protocol like Leviton or Black and Decker, formerly Radio Shack. It's like saying you'd never buy a Chevy because the local dealer has sleazy salespeople.

When I needed an X10 mini-controller for the GF the best price was at X10.com, before I found these guys on eBay. Guess what? X10.com begins spamming you hourly before the order is shipped.

There are some webmasters posting on Slashdot who said they needed the revenue at the time and these guys paid really well. Nobody mentioned that X10.com filed bankruptcy so they didn't have to pay all those webmasters.
 
I just remember that, when they were promoting the remote-control surveillance cameras, they'd have a "screen" with image panning going on, and it was never (say) a garage or a front porch- it was a hottie chick in scanty clothes.

Gee, what use were they promoting there? :dunno: :D
 
SCCutler said:
Mike: I am impressed.
Click to expand...


Good!

One more point: I'm buying the el-cheapo X10 and X10 Pro stuff, where a switch is say $6-$9 vs. $45 or more for Insteon, Z-Wave or Leviton. I figger if I drop $100 on a ton of switches, I've saved $400 that I can use for the test/troubleshooting equipment, filters, etc to get X10 working reliably - and the test equipment is only $95 or less.

I can always move up later when the prices for the other technologies drops some, and I'm running out of home improvement things to blow money on.
 
Another update: To solve my original not enough room in the box problem, I'm thinking I can use one of these wall mount controllers and inline modules installed in the fixtures or along the line. The only unknown I have is having room for the modules in the switch box. I may find room in the fixtures or be able to add a box along the line in the basement.
 
mikea said:
I'm with youse two, too. The popup / popunder attacks came from X10.com which is not the X10 manufacturer, or the only company selling X10 (X10 Powerhouse, X10 Activehome, X10 Pro...) products much less other products that use the X10 protocol like Leviton or Black and Decker, formerly Radio Shack. It's like saying you'd never buy a Chevy because the local dealer has sleazy salespeople.
...
Click to expand...

From X10 (the manufacturer). This is verification that X10 makes the Leviton stuff, although I'm seeing that Leviton has products that have more features, like the dimmer switch that has an LED readout, which is what I want (with dimming AT the switch.) I was hoping the Leviton stuff was higher quality for the higher price, but I dunno.
 

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Stupid question: What is this X10 stuff you guys are referring to?
 
stingray said:
I read through the first one. Problem is, my grandson would stand there and turn the light back on just to see it go back off. I'll take the 19 year old French maid over a controller box any day. Even if I can't control her.

Dan
Click to expand...

You need to follow my "Oh what a tangled web we weave..." problem.

  1. I put in a bunch ~$12 CFL bulbs outside and inside in ceiling fixtures to save electricity vs. ~$1.69 incandescents. (When I first got the house about every light bulb was burned out. I also made a special effort to find brighter CFL bug lights for more $$.)
  2. Since they're efficient, like 12 watts vs. 60 or more, I didn't worry too much about leaving the outside lights on but it's been bugging me that I leave them on in the daytime. Even 12 watts x 10 can amount to something over 8-12 hours a day.
  3. I can use X10 to turn off/on all 5 outdoor light circuits at dusk/dawn.
  4. The cheap X10 switches only work with incandescents, so I need the special, non-dimming fluorescent switches - some in a 3 way version, that cost about twice as much.
  5. CFLs are notorious for making line noise that makes X10 erratic and/or non-functional. As it stands I can't get any X10 to work even with the CFLs off, but I have wall warts and other things that also can mess it up.
  6. You fix the above problem by installing plug-in and wired fliters and isolators on the line going to the lights. The recommended one costs $24-$50 EACH and I have the aforementioned 5+~4 circuits with CFLs.
  7. I have no idea where in the electrical boxes I could install the filters anyway.

So to save the 40 watts per bulb I'm looking at laying out maybe $30 per. :hairraise:

BTW, folks, the new U.S. energy bill will ban incandescents by 2012. Everybody is gonna have to deal with impact like this. What I wonder is how this will look with CFL bulbs:

450px-Chicago-ChicagoTheater.jpg
 
Got my first ebay package from the sheridan-b5 guy. I give him kudos for the low prices and ship rates ($6 for the whole order!) and getting it to me first, but to be fair he's in Ohio while the other guy is further away in Texas.

The X10 stuff WORKS! :goofy:..at least on one circuit side of my electrical panel. Not on the back yard light circuit (yet).

I'm off to troubleshooting but it's fun to play with.

My old, old BSR X10 controller is evidently toast.
 
Mike if you just want to shut the outdoor lights off during the day you can get a photoelectric socket adapter that does just that for less than the cost of the CFL. No CFL/X10 conflicts, no dimming issues, no need to set up a timer etc.
 
lancefisher said:
Mike if you just want to shut the outdoor lights off during the day you can get a photoelectric socket adapter that does just that for less than the cost of the CFL. No CFL/X10 conflicts, no dimming issues, no need to set up a timer etc.
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Suurrre. Ruin my fun. :D

Durn engineers.

What I can do this way is turn on any and all of the outside lights from any corner or outside. In my house the switches for front, back, up, down outside lights are pretty far apart.

The master plan is I'll set up real home automation with a computer interface with macros and such. What I should be able to do early on is have lamps turn on with a motion detector so I don't have to find my way through when my main living is dark. I'll also have wireless remotes so I can light up the whole carport from outside when I come home at night.

I've also got a chime that will tell me when somebody enters the front entrance (or back) and those could turn on lights Yeah. I know the motion detector security lights are cheap. The system lets me do multiple things and change them as I please.

I have some (NOT X10!) cameras that I'll be expanding to watch the outside, too. The motion detectors will tell me when there's something out there.

The main thing you can with home automation is in the media room where you can set "moods" and have stuff like powered shades. I'd love to have powered shades upstairs. There's a system of X10-powered external motors. Oooooo...off for more googling. :D
 
mikea said:
BTW, folks, the new U.S. energy bill will ban incandescents by 2012. Everybody is gonna have to deal with impact like this.
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That's just nuts. There are plenty of applications where incandescents are far more practical and in some cases even more energy efficient than CFLs. In addition there's the whole mercury contamination issue which is far more serious IMO than saving a few KWH. If they want to improve electrical efficiency they simply need to tax it's use more heavily but that will never happen because it's unpopular with the masses. Mandating specific technology virtually always turns todays "solution" into tomorrow's problem.
 
lancefisher said:
That's just nuts. There are plenty of applications where incandescents are far more practical and in some cases even more energy efficient than CFLs. In addition there's the whole mercury contamination issue which is far more serious IMO than saving a few KWH. If they want to improve electrical efficiency they simply need to tax it's use more heavily but that will never happen because it's unpopular with the masses. Mandating specific technology virtually always turns todays "solution" into tomorrow's problem.
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What I predict is all of the unintended consequences. I pointed out one. Imagine all of the national landmarks and historic homes, where they'd have to break the code and ruin the atmosphere to be legal with this.

What about incandescents that aren't using standard Edison-base bulbs? Projectors. Chandeleirs. Toys. Replace a 7 watt night light bulb with a 12 watt CFL?

The pols need to learn that you can't pass blanket laws. Not everybody lives like you.
 
When I did the heating system in the house 7000 sqft. infloor plus ducts. I had a system designed that had 1 loop main room that ran all the time the other loops where controlled by electrical valves and thermostats. Heating guy said no problem. Came back to install it and installed 12 pumps one for each loop. No main run that ran constantly. I went from a very basic almost manual system to one that compared the outside temps to what it did in the house. Cost $30,000.00 and I had done all the tubing. Took me 1 winter to get it to work like I wanted it to (Back to almost manual) 1st heating bill with his system $500.00 a month. His idea heat the water high and fast. Mine heat the water slow and low. Automation is not for everyone. We now pay $1,000.00 a year.

Dan
 
An update. I have the solution to 4 switch gang space dilemma pretty much in hand. I'll post a picture once I get it all done. I need some switches and such that will get to me later this week.

I had an electrician - hangar flyer from the airport - come out Sunday. Once he heard what I was doing and I explained how it all works all to him :D and his head stopped spinning, he'll give me a quote on a new service entrance. I'll have to do most of that myself.

Now I have a quiz for you on usability:

There are three rows of lights out front: one over the door, two out further, and the three on eaves on the edge of the roofline. Those 3 rows of lights are from outside to inside, going left to right, all on your left through the door, on your left, as you face the three switches on the wall. (See the pictures above.)

Should I make the left switch control the leftmost, outside row of lights, or make the switch near the door control the light over door?

Explain your answer. :D

I'm inclined to do the second choice. The opposite of the order as they go out, but with the light over the door controlled by the switch nearest the door.

BTW, with those 3 switches vertical I have NEVER been able to hit the right switch the first time, like when I want only the eave lights on. I have to look. :dunno:

Update 2: My first X10 switch and on one circuit at least is working fine. The CFLs don't seem to hurt the operation.

Nice bonus: The new X10 incandescent switches have two quietly added features they never had before, which were supposed to be impossible. They have local dimming - you can dim at the switch, and they remember the previous brightness setting when turned back on. B) I was about to look for a $50 Leviton switch that could do that. No need. The $7 X10 one works fine.
 
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stingray said:
Can you see your house from google earth at night?:yes:

Dan
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Funny. The house is on a bend on the road. You CAN see it from 1/4 mile in each direction.

I didn't mention that there are 3 eave lights in the backyard, one on the other side, and I have 3 flood lights in the front yard. They're all CFL bug lights, even the floods. I did a lot of shopping research.

Just tonight when I took the dog out I was looking at where I should install some floods on the back of the house to light up the yard. I couldn't see where the dog went.

I was inspired when I watched Godfather II the other night. Don Michael Corleone's Lake Tahoe house had manned searchlights on the roof. Wonder if I could get those in CFLs. :D

I had 4 floodlights on my 40 foot evergreens for Christmas. I was second only to the church down the road which actually hangs lights on theirs ( which has gotta be 80 feet high. I've never seen how they do it. They must use the fire department's snorkel. I'd love to put lights on mine bt there;s no way I could get up there.

Like I said all of the lights were burned out when I moved in. I dunno if the neighbors like it more lit up so it looks like somebody lives here.
 
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Wow...Don't you have some podcasts to edit ? :)
 
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