High performance endorsement

T Bone

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T Bone
Hi gang. I recently got my tailwheel endoresement :)yes: What a blast!!) and want to continue on with some more training. Probably going to go with a Complex shortly, but was wondering exactly what is involved in the high performance endorsement? Sounds like not much, a couple instructors I've spoken too speak of around one hour of flight time..... so what are the specifics to be covered?

Relating to that, I have a few options. There is a local guy (I am away from home for a couple months) with an Extra 300. Could do some acro and get the endorsement. Other options, there are two schools, each with Arrows (200hp so NOT hp, but complex). One of them has a Bonanza also (not all that common to see one of these for rent). So, I could do the Bonanza and work on the complex as well as getting the hp, or I could do the Extra (or even a 185) for hp and then an Arrow for the complex..... which option sounds most interesting to the hive mind?
 
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There are a bunch of different options on this one..

High performance is an easy endorsement.. Depending on the amount of hours you have will determine the best way to do it.

For ex. Alot of people will tell you to get your high performance and complex at the same time. However depeneding on your hours, you may not be able to check the airplane out after you have it. At one of the places i fly the 172 rg is 150 Total time, 25 hours complex OR 10 hours with an instructor. For a high performance complex airplane the hour requirements can go up substantially.

What I did was got my Complex in a 172rg and my high performance seperatly in a 182 fixed. Didnt take much at all. Though a 182rg is a fine airplane to get checked out in :)
 
I took 5 hours dual to get my high performance endorsement. Not that it would have taken that long, but our club's insurance required 5 hours dual if you didn't have previous experience with a 182. So we worked on other things while making the Hobbs move. Worked on my complex in the club's Arrow at the same time. Got that before the high performance due to aircraft availability. Finished the high performance, put the 182 away and then hopped in the Arrow for a cross state flight. Great day.
 
High performance endorsement is a joke. BUT, if you gotta have it, you gotta have it.

What I find most joking about it is that the majority of the stuff they teach you for the HP is the EXACT SAME THING they teach you for complex.

Complex: Learn how to control the propeller, learn about MP and RPM correlation, learn to put the gear down

HP: Learn how to control the propeller, learn about MP and RPM correlation, learn how to counteract more Torque Effect.

I think the FAA made a mistake in separating the two endorsements.
 
It took me 5 hours to get my HP, but that also included getting me checked out in the G1000. It would have only required 4 hours to get checked out in the G1000 in the 172's, so I take that to mean it only takes about 1 hour to get comfortable with an HP a/c (182 in my case).

Sounds about right to me. There isn't that much to it, just understanding the prop controller and when to use it, and also how and when to use the cowl flaps.

Landings are pretty much the same, other than you really need to use your trim in the 182, or your arm will be sore the next day.
 
High performance endorsement is a joke. BUT, if you gotta have it, you gotta have it.

What I find most joking about it is that the majority of the stuff they teach you for the HP is the EXACT SAME THING they teach you for complex.

Complex: Learn how to control the propeller, learn about MP and RPM correlation, learn to put the gear down

HP: Learn how to control the propeller, learn about MP and RPM correlation, learn how to counteract more Torque Effect.

I think the FAA made a mistake in separating the two endorsements.

Mistake? How would I have gotten a complex to fly my HP fixed gear Cherokee 235? Rent somebody's else plane?

If you get the endorsement to fly a HP/Complex you get both, right?
 
Mistake? How would I have gotten a complex to fly my HP fixed gear Cherokee 235? Rent somebody's else plane?

If you get the endorsement to fly a HP/Complex you get both, right?

Yes. BUT, if you had only gotten the Complex (after the FAA separated the two, you can get one or the other now), you can't fly HP. If you only get the HP, you can't fly the Complex. You have to get two endorsements now.

And they're essentially the same thing.
 
IMO High performance endorsement is not so much about how to run the propeller as it is about how to manage the engine. shock cooling and other engine management issues are what I usually stress. Complex endorsement is for the controllable pitch propeller retractable gear etc. of course if you do high performance in an airplane with a constant speed prop then you've got to learn how it works.
 
I've looked for information on the origin of HP endorsement. I can't find anything at all. If any of the "old timers" know I'd love to hear about it.

The only thing I found at all was my FAR's Explained book indicated there was once a proposed rule to change 61.31(f) to reflect "200 horsepower or more" as opposed to the existing "more than 200 horsepower" language.

I'm guessing the HP endorsement came at a time when the average plane was still well under a hundred horsepower. It seemed reasonable then. Now that the average training aircraft is a 180 horsepower Skyhawk, it does seem rather silly. As Tony pointed out, engine management is the key for it. But one should have learned that in lessor powered aircraft.

Legally, you can take the same endorsement and go fly a Caravan with 675 SHP turboprop engine with no minimum total time requirements. There's something wrong with this picture as pilots have died in such situations as in the case of a TBM 700 earlier this year.

The complex does indeed make sense but one could walk away with that endorsement with no more than a few tenths before a sign-off. That's not likely to happen but nothing prevents an endorsement with a single flight around the pattern and quick review of the gear usage. Checklist usage is everything on retractable gear aircraft. A flow/checklist verification should take place at least three times during an approach to landing in any plane but most certainly in that with retractable gear.

This is what should be drilled in during that usual five hours or so most require for a sign-off. That and the effects of the gear being down along with the automatic reaction to raising flaps and retracting gear in the proper order during a missed approach. I once saw a guy raise flaps to zero but the gear was still down; causing all that drag on climb out.

While some got their sign-off for the G1000 or whatever during HP/Complex training, I think it was a bad idea to combine them. Proper procedures for the complex aircraft systems is a lot more important than the avionics usage.
 
Thanks guys, all good info (as usual!). Cap'n Ron, great link there, thanks! Yep, sounds pretty much like a checkout in any other aircraft. I think doing it in the Extra might be "cheating" a bit, as I doubt we'd cover everything (not like the guy's gonna toss me the keys after one hour and say "go for it". So, though I'll probably fly with him, and maybe even let him sign me off, I think I'll probably just do the complex in the Bonanza, which will cover everything I'd need to learn for the HP too. Hey, the Beech is only $30/hour more than the Arrow. And how often do you see those for rent? (Maybe frequently where you live, but not where I currently live). Of course, I doubt I'll have the total time to take it solo after the endorsement. I need to check the limits for the various schools planes.

The school also has a sim for the G-1000 (and a 172 equipped with one). So I may do their 5 hour course with an instructor to transition to the G-1000 so I can fly that after I'm done with the other stuff.....
 
I think doing it in the Extra might be "cheating" a bit, as I doubt we'd cover everything (not like the guy's gonna toss me the keys after one hour and say "go for it". So, though I'll probably fly with him, and maybe even let him sign me off, I think I'll probably just do the complex in the Bonanza, which will cover everything I'd need to learn for the HP too.

The problem I see with doing the HP in the Extra is the lack of controls and instruments in the front seat. No mixture control, no engine instruments... what's the point? The Bonanza is a better option IMHO.

But get some time in the Extra if you have a chance. What do they charge for a flight?
 
High performance endorsement is a joke. BUT, if you gotta have it, you gotta have it.

What I find most joking about it is that the majority of the stuff they teach you for the HP is the EXACT SAME THING they teach you for complex.

Complex: Learn how to control the propeller, learn about MP and RPM correlation, learn to put the gear down

HP: Learn how to control the propeller, learn about MP and RPM correlation, learn how to counteract more Torque Effect.

I think the FAA made a mistake in separating the two endorsements.
Let's say, for the sake of argument, that I got my private pilot certificate in a Champ, and did my high performance endorsement in a 220 Stearman.

Now, having never used flaps, controllable prop, or retractable landing gear, you're telling me I should need no more training to jump into an airplane equipped with those three features and fly it?

Or, maybe, I trained in a 152, got my tailwheel signoff in the Champ, and graduated to a 180hp Arrow for my complex endorsement...I should now be able to jump into a 600hp Stearman?

The problem is that the FAA's policies have to cover the entire spectrum of aviation, not just the average rental fleet.

Personally, I did my "high performance endorsement" in a Cherokee 6...no retractable gear, but at the time, it still qualified me to fly a Saratoga with retractable gear.

The issue I have is that you can currently get a complex endorsement in a non-retractable seaplane...seems like a double standard to me.

Fly safe!

David
 
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For only the additional $30, it would, for me, be worth it to get a little dual in the Bonanza. They are wonderful planes and just getting the time in one, even for an hour, will be big fun and good practice on both the Hi-Per and complex.

How long it takes to get the endorsement [which, with me, means showing proficiency in the complex or hi-perf machine] will depend on how fast the pilot picks up on the systems, including emergency gear extension, prop overspeed, etc., which isn't long. I also want to see an understanding of the power quadrant management, as do most CFIs I expect. Again this doesn't take too long, some good ground school on all this is invaluable.

You probably already know that most rental places will require a minimum amount of flight training to rent a complex or hi performance plane. In fact, I don't think I've ever seen it less than five hours anywhere I've been. Insurance requirements will likely dictate that if the rental facility doesn't otherwise. You can combine the min. hours with some other training, too, and in our area a popular option is to throw in some mountain flight training or a flight review. But go for it, it's fun.
 
While the flight school or insurance can demand minimum hours for being able to solo a plane, I would not allow a flight school to set a minimum just for the endorsement.

I had that problem with my old flight school, and it took a talk with the Chief CFI to explain the difference.

The school wanted 10 hours for complex. I explained that there was NO way it would take 10 hours to learn how move 2 levers that aren't present in normal airplanes, and their policy reeked to me of trying to milk hours from students.
 
While the flight school or insurance can demand minimum hours for being able to solo a plane, I would not allow a flight school to set a minimum just for the endorsement.

I had that problem with my old flight school, and it took a talk with the Chief CFI to explain the difference.

The school wanted 10 hours for complex. I explained that there was NO way it would take 10 hours to learn how move 2 levers that aren't present in normal airplanes, and their policy reeked to me of trying to milk hours from students.

Maybe so, Nick. But the 10 hours is an insurance requirement. While it may not take 10 hours for the endorsement, you will do the time anyway. I don't see it as a way to milk hours from studens because you have to do it regardless.
 
Maybe so, Nick. But the 10 hours is an insurance requirement. While it may not take 10 hours for the endorsement, you will do the time anyway. I don't see it as a way to milk hours from studens because you have to do it regardless.

Not in my case, I just wanted the endorsement so I could fly other planes, I had no desire, at the time, to fly the Flight School's Arrow, and that's why I had the problem with it.

But you're 100% correct, though, if you're gonna be renting from the FBO, why not get the time done at the same time? But I'd be mad if I had 6 hours in an Arrow, hoping to get the 10, still not signed off, and I had the opportunity to fly someone else's plane that afternoon and the flight school said "Nope, 4 more hours to go."
 
Thanks guys, all good info (as usual!). Cap'n Ron, great link there, thanks! Yep, sounds pretty much like a checkout in any other aircraft. I think doing it in the Extra might be "cheating" a bit, as I doubt we'd cover everything (not like the guy's gonna toss me the keys after one hour and say "go for it". So, though I'll probably fly with him, and maybe even let him sign me off, I think I'll probably just do the complex in the Bonanza, which will cover everything I'd need to learn for the HP too. Hey, the Beech is only $30/hour more than the Arrow. And how often do you see those for rent? (Maybe frequently where you live, but not where I currently live). Of course, I doubt I'll have the total time to take it solo after the endorsement. I need to check the limits for the various schools planes.


Go for the Bonanza. In your first post you mentioned you were "Probably going to go with a Complex shortly". Do the training in the Bonanza and you get both Complex and HP at the same time (there's virtually no additional training needed for the HP over complex that doesn't really apply to most retractables anyway). The HP as a separate endorsement is really for the pilot who owns/wants to fly a 182 Cherokee Six etc and has no desire to "graduate" to a retract in the near future.
In your case I think that just wouldn't make any sense.
 
I did 10 hrs in a T206H. I agree it that the endorsement has a lot more to do with energy management then the prop & etc. I got my HP endorsement before my complex. I found the check-out in the 172RG anti-climatic compared to the the T206H. 310hp is a lot of horses. :)
 
Thanks again guys, more good stuff. It's going to be the Bonanza, the chief instructor told me it's generally a five hour dual to get the complex, and could likely just add the hp along with it (learning to fly the Bonanza after all, will include all the requirements for the high performance endorsement). The five hours will serve double duty getting me used to working inside a busy airspace (Las Vegas Bravo) as opposed to my usual working around DTW. I will probably not be allowed to rent this plane solo anyway, as I am still quite low time. It is a near certainty that I'll get some form of mountain flying instruction also prior to heading back East.

This trip (the flying aspect of it) is about expanding my envelope, and taking advantage of training opportunities and aircraft not available back home. I will probably also take advantage of their $200 5 hour simulator/instructor transition to the G-1000. This should enable me to fly their G-1000 equipped 172, something I'd like to get a few hours in.

I definitely plan on doing at least one hour with the Exrta 300, if nothing else, it's an extremely cool log book entry!
Chip said:
But get some time in the Extra if you have a chance. What do they charge for a flight?
I spoke to him yesterday. I can't recall for certain, it was either $300 or $350 per hour. A bit more than the Pitts I've seen, but hey.... it's an Extra 300! I don't get the chance to fly one of those at all back home. B) He's got the Chilean Air Force Aerobatic team in until Thursday, works with them once a year I think he said. He's free after that, and I imagine we'll go up in a week or two.
 
The school wanted 10 hours for complex. I explained that there was NO way it would take 10 hours to learn how move 2 levers that aren't present in normal airplanes, and their policy reeked to me of trying to milk hours from students.
SkyHog is clearly unfamiliar with both the accident statistics on low retractable time pilots and the Law of Exercise. The facts are that going through the drill many times develops the habits that lead to remembering to put the gear down, and the incidence of gear-up landings for pilots with less than 10 hours of retractable time is astronomically greater than for those with more. In that sense, while it takes very little to learn how to move those levers, it takes 10 hours or more to learn to do that lever movement on every landing. That explains their policy of a minimum of 10 hours to check out in their Arrow, although one should be able to demonstrate the proficiency to act as PIC of a complex aircraft with substantially less, so if they are demanding a minimum of 10 hours to receive the complex endorsement (as opposed to being "checked out" for solo rental of their Arrow), they are indeed trying to extract cash from their customers, who should (if the endorsement is all they want) vote with their feet and get their endorsement elsewhere.
 
If you're looking at getting some 'cool' logbook entries and some aerobatic training and since it appears you're in the general area of this place, why not check out Sean D. Tucker's Tutima Academy of Aviation Safety (http://www.tutimaacademy.com/).

By a total fit of 'right place, right time' scenario, I got to help a couple of Sean's instructors push his planes in a hangar one evening then gave them a ride to the local hotel. Great guys and didn't seem to be Top Gun wannabe's or anything like that.

Just a thought. I'd love to do it if I had a reason and ability to blow a large amount of cash at one time.
 
SkyHog is clearly unfamiliar with both the accident statistics on low retractable time pilots and the Law of Exercise. The facts are that going through the drill many times develops the habits that lead to remembering to put the gear down, and the incidence of gear-up landings for pilots with less than 10 hours of retractable time is astronomically greater than for those with more. In that sense, while it takes very little to learn how to move those levers, it takes 10 hours or more to learn to do that lever movement on every landing. That explains their policy of a minimum of 10 hours to check out in their Arrow, although one should be able to demonstrate the proficiency to act as PIC of a complex aircraft with substantially less, so if they are demanding a minimum of 10 hours to receive the complex endorsement (as opposed to being "checked out" for solo rental of their Arrow), they are indeed trying to extract cash from their customers, who should (if the endorsement is all they want) vote with their feet and get their endorsement elsewhere.

And Ron is apparantly incapable of reading my post where I said that I had no intention of renting the arrow.....right about .....here I think:

Skyhog said:
While the flight school or insurance can demand minimum hours for being able to solo a plane, I would not allow a flight school to set a minimum just for the endorsement.

I had that problem with my old flight school, and it took a talk with the Chief CFI to explain the difference.

The school wanted 10 hours for complex. I explained that there was NO way it would take 10 hours to learn how move 2 levers that aren't present in normal airplanes, and their policy reeked to me of trying to milk hours from students.

and also here....

Skyhog said:
Not in my case, I just wanted the endorsement so I could fly other planes, I had no desire, at the time, to fly the Flight School's Arrow, and that's why I had the problem with it.

So yeah, I know why the insurance requires more time to solo their airplanes, and I know why the FBOs follow their insurance requirements, but I find it unacceptable, as Ron suggests as well, to require the full time to get the endorsement without solo rights.
 
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I did my complex checkout in something like 1.5 hours.
 
If you're looking at getting some 'cool' logbook entries and some aerobatic training and since it appears you're in the general area of this place, why not check out Sean D. Tucker's Tutima Academy of Aviation Safety (http://www.tutimaacademy.com/).

By a total fit of 'right place, right time' scenario, I got to help a couple of Sean's instructors push his planes in a hangar one evening then gave them a ride to the local hotel. Great guys and didn't seem to be Top Gun wannabe's or anything like that.

Just a thought. I'd love to do it if I had a reason and ability to blow a large amount of cash at one time.

Well, first.... I'm not exactly in the area. Mapquest says something like 450 miles and 7 hours drive time. Next, as I understand it, the training isn't with "the man" himself, but others he's no doubt approved (not to say it would not be totally awesome, as I am certain it would!). Then there's the fact that it's a Pitts (again, no slouch, they are a fantastic airplane! But I am looking at a fairly rare opportunity to fly an Extra 300, that is less than 10 minutes from where I am staying). As to the ability to "blow a large sum of cash", well, that's relative for all of us now isn't it. I have and am sacrificing some for this trip, on top of which I am here mostly to work. I should be starting a new construction job sometime next week (with luck) and will be in the area for probably 5-6 weeks or so. I MAY go back to California, (or not) if so, it will be to sight see a bit more, and get some more flight training in the Santa Paula area (there is a school there that teaches Rich Stowells EMT course, they did my tailwheel training and BFR).

I have a few other possibilities in mind, but those are for future posts (they involve travel towards home, and/or some things rather near here).

Now, Sky Hog and Cap'n Ron, BOTH good points, now play nice. I think we ALL agree that a school that requires 10 hours complex simply for the endorsement is rather excessive, and the school I am looking at is 5 hours (probably won't be able to solo though, again insurance requirements). Even with the 10 hours, I probably wouldn't have enough total time.


Jesse said:
I did my complex checkout in something like 1.5 hours.

Um.... well, that's why you're the "World's Greatest Pilot" then, hm? ;)

In all seriousness, I have doubts that most private pilots with a bit of time past their checkride would have difficulty demonstrating the skills required with 1.5 hours complex time, but I certainly would question the judgment of an instructor who'd sign one off in that amount of time. But that's just me, and I am simply an old, NOT bold pilot.... and I plan to stay that way :D
 
In all seriousness, I have doubts that most private pilots with a bit of time past their checkride would have difficulty demonstrating the skills required with 1.5 hours complex time, but I certainly would question the judgment of an instructor who'd sign one off in that amount of time. But that's just me, and I am simply an old, NOT bold pilot.... and I plan to stay that way :D
Unfortunately, the physical skills are the easiest to teach, so that's generally what's taught. Forming habits and enhancing judgment take more time and effort on the part of the instructor, so they are largely neglected.

Most pilots can also demonstrate the required skills FOR 1.5 hours. But somewhere in the 3-5 hour range they often get tired, careless, or complacent, and start making the mistakes that in result in NTSB reports. This is what, IMO, the instructor needs to see and address during the training for the training for endorsement.

Fly safe!

David
 
10 hours of dual in the Arrow and I guarantee you that my CFI had it drilled into my thick head. Gear down at mid field on downwind. 3 in the green. Turn base. 3 in the green. Turn final. 3 in the green. Call it out each time. A gear up landing isn't going to be fatal, but it sure would be embarrassing. Club's insurance wanted 10 hour dual, and that's the complex I fly, so waiting for 10 hours before signoff really didn't matter. I understand Skyhog's position, too. However, in that 10 hours we got to practice an emergency extention for real, might have missed it with less. Popped a breaker without noticing. Slowed for slow flight, dropped flaps and selected gear down. A few moments later and Jeff and I looked at each other. Did you feel the gear go down? No. Green lights? No. Emergency extention checklist out. First item, circuit breakers. Aha! One is popped. Select gear up, reset breaker, select gear down. Gear went down. What caused the breaker to pop? Who knows, let them sort it out on the ground. Flew home with the gear down. Oh, and the A&P couldn't find anything wrong and in the 50 plus hours I've flown that plane since I've never had a problem with the gear. Great training experience, however. Glad it happened. I now know the emergency extention checklist by heart for that Arrow.
 
I did my complex checkout in something like 1.5 hours.

Same hear and another 1.5 for the HP. The school had a policy though that if I wanted to fly either aircraft solo I would need additional hours but they did not hold up the endorsement sign off. As a CP they only required 5 hours of dual, I had way more than that anyways since I had started with them for my commercial and was flying the 172RG all the time.
 
However, in that 10 hours we got to practice an emergency extention for real, might have missed it with less.
So, you're saying that your instructor would have otherwise signed off your complex endorsement without a practice manual gear extension?

That's a requirement for a simple aircraft checkout in my book, and the complex endorsement training is for, well, an endorsement.

(by the way...that CB would have "popped" at some point during training with me, as well ;))

Fly safe!

David
 
So, you're saying that your instructor would have otherwise signed off your complex endorsement without a practice manual gear extension?

That's a requirement for a simple aircraft checkout in my book, and the complex endorsement training is for, well, an endorsement.

(by the way...that CB would have "popped" at some point during training with me, as well ;))

Fly safe!

David

Not at all. We had already practiced it. This one, however, was for real and caught both of us by surprise. Had it been an exercise we would not have returned to the field with the gear down the whole time. We had a discussion about raising the gear and seeing if we could duplicate the problem in the air and decided that we didn't like that option as what would we do if we couldn't get it down again (I know, the Arrow's emergency extension system is pretty bulletproof), so we called off the rest of the lesson and went home.

Then again, that might have been part of his plan. In flight decision making.
 
I had a vacuum pump failure while under the hood. I asked my CFI how he failed it. He didn't. :p
To be honest. it would be wonderful if they could fail it! And as for the gear circuit popping, it would be a much more effective lesson if the instructor pops it and doesn't fess up. Then it's really ingrained into the students' mind that things can and do fail in real life!
 
Never underestimate the sadistic tendencies of a flight instructor ;)

Now you know why I guard the throttle at all times when a CFI is in the right seat. I know that the leading cause of engine failures in light singles is the CFI in that seat. :D
 
Now you know why I guard the throttle at all times when a CFI is in the right seat. I know that the leading cause of engine failures in light singles is the CFI in that seat. :D
That's why, when instructing in light singles, I ALWAYS carry a couple of angry bees in my pocket...you start swatting at 'em, and your hand comes off the throttle.:goofy:

Fly safe!

David
 
That's why, when instructing in light singles, I ALWAYS carry a couple of angry bees in my pocket...you start swatting at 'em, and your hand comes off the throttle.:goofy:

Fly safe!

David
Thats where all the bees are going!
 
That's why, when instructing in light singles, I ALWAYS carry a couple of angry bees in my pocket...you start swatting at 'em, and your hand comes off the throttle.:goofy:

Fly safe!

David
Yeah, but what CFI doesn't have a cell phone in his/her pocket? That'll ward off the bees and make 'em disappear, and you'll STILL have a mysterious engine failure that the NTSB won't be able to explain! LOL!
 
Yeah, but what CFI doesn't have a cell phone in his/her pocket? That'll ward off the bees and make 'em disappear, and you'll STILL have a mysterious engine failure that the NTSB won't be able to explain! LOL!
"Here's to you, Mr. Cell Phone Holster Wearer...Because not only does it tell the world you have a cell phone, but it tells them you have it in a holster."

Personally, I have two ;)

Fly safe!

David
 
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