Helping to build a certified plane

[Sam D]

Just thinking out loud here:

On and off, I've been thinking about someday building a cub (www.txsport.aero). You'll notice that these are the same folks who bring us the Legend cub. I've talked to them and there are just a couple of minor differences (e.g. the floorboard in the production model is carbon fiber, I believe, whereas its plywood in the kit version).

They have an accelerated build program where you work at their factory with their assistance. Here's my question: rather than building my own homebuilt, couldn't I somehow help them build a certified version?

 

[poadeleted20]

I suppose you could get a job in the factory where they're built. Other than that, no, I don't think so, but I'm not that familiar with the limitations on production certificates.

 

[KennyFlys]

I got a tour of their factory last August. From what they were saying, they guide the builder through construction so carefully, it's practically done by the factory with 51% or more hands on by the kit builder.

 

[Greg Bockelman]

Here's my question: rather than building my own homebuilt, couldn't I somehow help them build a certified version?

I suppose you could get a job in the factory where they're built. Other than that, no, I don't think so, but I'm not that familiar with the limitations on production certificates.

But then, you would have a certified airplane with all the benefits AND LIMITATIONS that go along with it. IOW, you couldn't sign off inspections or do any work without the supervision of a certified mechanic.

 

[poadeleted20]

But then, you would have a certified airplane with all the benefits AND LIMITATIONS that go along with it. IOW, you couldn't sign off inspections or do any work without the supervision of a certified mechanic.

Right, but that's what he said he wanted. However, if he just wants factory assistance building his own Experimental Amateur-Built plane, then Ken's advice above applies.

 

[Sam D]

Right, but that's what he said he wanted. However, if he just wants factory assistance building his own Experimental Amateur-Built plane, then Ken's advice above applies.

Well, I don't know what I want. Just curious about the options. Thanks for the responses.

 

[poadeleted20]

Well, I don't know what I want.

Then go to http://www.eaa.org and start researching what you get/don't get and can/can't do with an Experimental Amateur-Built aircraft.

 

[Tom-D]

Well, I don't know what I want. Just curious about the options. Thanks for the responses.

Do you want a certified LSA cub?
Do you want to work on it your self?

If so, talk to your local A&P about working under the supervision IAW FAR 43.3(d)

 

[Geico266]

Well, I don't know what I want. Just curious about the options. Thanks for the responses.

Buy or build an Van's RV. Fast, cheap to own & fly, great planes, great value, great customer service, exceptional resale. You can work on any experimental if you are not the builder, you just can't do the condition inspections.

http://www.vansaircraft.com/index.htm

 

[brcase]

Interestingly you used to be able to do this. I don't know the details of how it was done. But My Certified Schweizer 1-26C was sold as a kit and then finished by the owner. I think all that really needed to be done was probably the fabric work and installation of instruments. Wouldn't surpise me if the work had be supervised and signed off by and A&P.

Brian
Former owner of SGS 1-26C #294.

 

[stingray]

Just thinking out loud here:

On and off, I've been thinking about someday building a cub (www.txsport.aero). You'll notice that these are the same folks who bring us the Legend cub. I've talked to them and there are just a couple of minor differences (e.g. the floorboard in the production model is carbon fiber, I believe, whereas its plywood in the kit version).

They have an accelerated build program where you work at their factory with their assistance. Here's my question: rather than building my own homebuilt, couldn't I somehow help them build a certified version?

You probably could but it would not be much cheaper than if they did all the work. the extra cost for certified comes in the way of liability. Labor is but a small part of the price.

Look at aircraft spruce TSOed and non TSOed made by the same company almost double in price more than likely comes off the same line. I went through the factory at Starite pumps and they had an off shoot brand that sold at menards for half the price. All that was different was the color and the sticker.

It is not that hard to build a new cub, get a project and build it with new parts. The paperwork will say it is 50 years old but the plane will in reality be new. If you do the research you can make many modifications that are approved and you will have a very nice custom (to your needs) plane. Find an A&P IA that will work with you.

Dan

 

[poadeleted20]

It is not that hard to build a new cub,

Speak for yourself, Dan. That is not a task I am equipped to handle, although doing one of those in-factory amateur-built projects is a good way to learn how.

 

[docmirror]

Ok, I need to butt in a little. Legend cub doesn't offer a 'certificated' plane. They do offer an LSA which is built to a 'consensus standard' which is far, far, different than a 'certificated' plane. If I understand the OP correctly, he's interested in the E-LSA built plane rather than the S-LSA built(factory).

I'm still new at this, but the two differences between E and S-LSA are: 1 Condition inspection can be done on your own E-LSA if you take the 16 hour course, or are the builder of record. 2 E-LSA can't be used for hire as in, training or glider towing. Another difference that I think applies is the E-LSA can be modified(not a consensus standard build) and the S-LSA must conform to the consensus standard under which it was approved.

 

[GigG601XL]

Buy or build an Van's RV.

Van's are a great plane but they are not designed for the same mission as the Cub.

And to the OP...

What you are really asking is would they let you come to work for them and just work on the plane that you are going to be buying from them. My guess is that the answer would be no.

 

[Geico266]

Ok, I need to butt in a little. Legend cub doesn't offer a 'certificated' plane. They do offer an LSA which is built to a 'consensus standard' which is far, far, different than a 'certificated' plane. If I understand the OP correctly, he's interested in the E-LSA built plane rather than the S-LSA built(factory).

I'm still new at this, but the two differences between E and S-LSA are: 1 Condition inspection can be done on your own E-LSA if you take the 16 hour course, or are the builder of record. 2 E-LSA can't be used for hire as in, training or glider towing. Another difference that I think applies is the E-LSA can be modified(not a consensus standard build) and the S-LSA must conform to the consensus standard under which it was approved.

I was wondering about that, I didn't think any plane is a "certified" plane if it is amateur built / assisted.

As I understand it there is only one S-LSA of a model that is the "standard" by which all other E-LSA aircraft being built (of that model) must comply. The S-sla is built by the kit manufacturer. There can be no deviations from the prints for a new kit to become an E-LSA. You can deviate if you wish, but then it will need to be registered and flown as an experimental amateur built aircraft.

I am building a RV-12. I copied the info below from their web site.

HOW CAN AN RV-12 BE LICENSED?​

Van’s Aircraft plans on submitting the RV-12 prototype for Special Light Sport Aircraft (S-LSA) approval. When this is received, RV-12 builders may build and license conforming airplanes in the E-LSA category.
Although the E-LSA category does not permit builders to vary from the kit or plans (no unapproved engines, propellers, etc. are allowed) it does have some very attractive features. In the E-LSA category, there is no “51%” rule, and no restriction on who may assist in building the airplane. This allows any amount of help, professional assistance or even a fully professional-built airplane.
In February 2008, the FAA stopped reviewing new kits for compliance with Experimental-Amateur Built category. Van’s Aircraft, Inc. is unable to predict the ultimate effect of the moratorium on the E-AB eligibility of RV-12 kits, but from the information currently available, E-AB certification will still be allowed on an individual basis. Responsibility for demonstrating compliance with the “51%” rule will rest entirely with the builder.

 

[Geico266]

What you are really asking is would they let you come to work for them and just work on the plane that you are going to be buying from them. My guess is that the answer would be no.

If you are buying an E-LSA you can build any portion and have any amount of assistance in building the plane, depending on company policies of course. Looks like the Cub Crafter have taken advanced of this in a big way.

http://www.txsport.aero/1st_customer.asp

 

[stingray]

Speak for yourself, Dan. That is not a task I am equipped to handle, although doing one of those in-factory amateur-built projects is a good way to learn how.

Have you tried?

I have a set of DVD's that I can send you. It explains in detail how to cover a tube and fabric plane. Using the Stewart Systems covering it is pretty much fool proof. There is also help in the way of technical advisers EAA and EAA members themselves. If you get a chance look at a Cub, Champ, Taylorcraft, Citabria that is uncovered. I'm exaggerating but there is about 6 moving parts.

The hardest part is just starting, once you start you learn fast. Start on the small stuff and work up to the fuselage. You will note that the last line in my post said find an A&P IA that will work with you. I know 3 or 4 that will let you work right in their shop. Most of the smaller A&P's have down time in the winter they would be more than happy to have something to do.

Dan

 

[docmirror]

I was wondering about that, I didn't think any plane is a "certified" plane if it is amateur built / assisted.

As I understand it there is only one S-LSA of a model that is the "standard" by which all other E-LSA aircraft being built (of that model) must comply.

Not to my understanding. The kits being built by and at Legend and many other LSA builders are all 'S-LSA' unless the individual comes and builds part, or if they buy the plane as a kit and have a third party build the whole thing.

S-LSA can be used for commercial operations, and must be built at a factory to a 'consensus standard' from ASTM. E-LSA can be the exact same plane, design, and type but is or may be built in part by the owner, or a third party. These E-LSA may not be used for commercial purposes.

Also, there are limitations on the types of flying depending on who's at the controls. for example, as a PP, I could fly an appropriately equipped LSA at night or above 10,000' as long as that did not contravene the operating instructions. A SP could not fly the same exact plane in the same area.

Adam V is the expert in this area, but I've been looking into it as well.

 

[jmaynard]

S-LSA can be used for commercial operations, and must be built at a factory to a 'consensus standard' from ASTM. E-LSA can be the exact same plane, design, and type but is or may be built in part by the owner, or a third party. These E-LSA may not be used for commercial purposes.

...with two exceptions, one temporary: they may be used until January 31, 2010 for flight instruction if the instructor provides the aircraft, or at any time to tow an LSA glider or unpowered ultralight. See 91.319(e).

Also, there are limitations on the types of flying depending on who's at the controls. for example, as a PP, I could fly an appropriately equipped LSA at night or above 10,000' as long as that did not contravene the operating instructions. A SP could not fly the same exact plane in the same area.

In fact, an LSA can be flown IFR, if the aircraft's operating instructions permit it and if it's equipped and tested according to the appropriate IFR rules. Mine is one such.

Adam V is the expert in this area, but I've been looking into it as well.

I like to think I know a bit about it, too.

 

[poadeleted20]

Have you tried?

I've tried to build a number of things over the years (although not an airplane), and have concluded that I would never fly a plane I had built myself. Many have those skills; I don't.

 

[Ken Ibold]

Responsibility for demonstrating compliance with the “51%” rule will rest entirely with the builder.

This could, in fact, be a big bugaboo in practice. Too recent a development to know for sure, and it will probably vary from FSDO to FSDO.

 

[KennyFlys]

This could, in fact, be a big bugaboo in practice. Too recent a development to know for sure, and it will probably vary from FSDO to FSDO.

I read somewhere about six months back of a few build-assist programs being cracked down on because the factory has too much of their own hand in the final product.

 

[wanttaja]

S-LSA can be used for commercial operations, and must be built at a factory to a 'consensus standard' from ASTM. E-LSA can be the exact same plane, design, and type but is or may be built in part by the owner, or a third party.

E-LSAs can also be built 100% in a factory. Anyone can take a standard S-LSA and change its certification to E-LSA.

Primary Category aircraft (see FAR 21.24) can be built from a kit and fully-certified if construction is under the supervision of the type certificate holder. They can be rented out or used for flight instruction, but can't otherwise operate for hire. If the owner builds it completely independently, it must be licensed as Experimental/Kit-Built.

IIRC, Piper had a program in the late '80s where a purchaser could construct a Super Cub from a kit. The factory would send out a QA guy to sign it off.

Ron Wanttaja

 

[RogerT]

... and have concluded that I would never fly a plane I had built myself.

I said that for years. And then I got a wild hair and built an experimental.
It's been flying for about 2 1/2 yrs and no pieces have fallen off yet.

RT

 

[Everskyward]

I said that for years. And then I got a wild hair and built an experimental.
It's been flying for about 2 1/2 yrs and no pieces have fallen off yet.

That's pretty admirable RT, but I'm with Ron, I wouldn't want to fly a plane I built myself either... but I don't need to worry about that. If past history (my basement among other things) is any predictor, if I started to build an airplane it would never get done unless I paid someone else to finish it.